RugbyRebels

Banquo wrote:

Puja wrote:

Banquo wrote:Good source- though I'm very dubious- has....if so, not a big fan of it at all.

1- Wyn Jones
2- LCD
3- Furlong
4- Itoje
5- Alun Wyn
6- Lawes
7- Curry
8- Conan
9- Price
10- Biggar
11- Duhan VDM
12- Henshaw
13- Daly
14- Watson
15- Hogg

I mean... that could be a lot, lot worse? No Murray/Farrell dream team at 9/10 to render the rest of the backs pointless (with no Aki at 12 to finish the job) and, while I'm no fan of Lawes at 6, at least he'd have Curry and Conan to provide the mobility and do all the work for him.

I don't think it's real, mostly because I don't see a world in which Gatland doesn't play Adams, but if you offered me that over what I fear Gatland might potentially unleash, I'd probably take it.

Puja

well of course it could be worse, but that's not a high bar. Anyhoo- just stuck it out there and will be fascinated to see how close it ends up being.

(and I agree, Adams absence would be pretty odd).

BTW...what did you 'fear he'd unleash'? He has been a pretty decent Lions coach and selector tbh- may not like the style, but he's not mad.

Basically, I feared him deciding that, in order to beat the Boks, you needed POWAH! in all things. I could genuinely have seen 6. Lawes, 7. Curry, 8. Faletau, which would've leaned into Lawes's flaws as a flanker more obviously, and Murray/Farrell/Aki/Henshaw for a kick and bosh gameplan (and the Iceman's vaunted leadership and ref-shouting ability, of course).

Puja

Ugh.

Banquo wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:Assuming this is correct.... Kolbe v DVDM (with Daly for support) sticks out. As does the fact that it’s very much a form based selection, with the odd exception.
With no Russell, and accepting Smith hasn’t been in camp long enough to be selected, that’s about as attacking a backline as we could put out. Assuming that points to an expansive game plan, Curry has a long 80 mins ahead of him.

as I said, its a bit odd- genuinely good source, but an odd selection for me. e.g. for all Murray has been poor and Price ok, Murray was the stand in (and miraculously not permanent) skipper. Beirne actually looks like an authentic 6 whilst giving great lineout, etc etc.

I think as someone commented earlier, its one of the least cut and dried Lions selections - well at least since 97, when Geech chucked a fair few curve balls in.

Gatland has proven he'd drop captains if need be. Price would be one of the least surprising selections imo.

Banquo wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:Assuming this is correct.... Kolbe v DVDM (with Daly for support) sticks out. As does the fact that it’s very much a form based selection, with the odd exception.
With no Russell, and accepting Smith hasn’t been in camp long enough to be selected, that’s about as attacking a backline as we could put out. Assuming that points to an expansive game plan, Curry has a long 80 mins ahead of him.

as I said, its a bit odd- genuinely good source, but an odd selection for me. e.g. for all Murray has been poor and Price ok, Murray was the stand in (and miraculously not permanent) skipper. Beirne actually looks like an authentic 6 whilst giving great lineout, etc etc.

I think as someone commented earlier, its one of the least cut and dried Lions selections - well at least since 97, when Geech chucked a fair few curve balls in.

Agreed on Beirne. Thought he was a shoo-in and still could be, of course. There are plenty of close calls across the park but then an undercooked Henshaw plus A. N. Other with at least one glaring weakness in the centres. That said, other than a handful of tweaks - Beirne for Lawes, Adams for DVDM and Harris for Daly (still meh, but Daly in d scares me) - I’d say you could argue he’s got it about right based on form and class/talent.

Big D wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:Assuming this is correct.... Kolbe v DVDM (with Daly for support) sticks out. As does the fact that it’s very much a form based selection, with the odd exception.
With no Russell, and accepting Smith hasn’t been in camp long enough to be selected, that’s about as attacking a backline as we could put out. Assuming that points to an expansive game plan, Curry has a long 80 mins ahead of him.

as I said, its a bit odd- genuinely good source, but an odd selection for me. e.g. for all Murray has been poor and Price ok, Murray was the stand in (and miraculously not permanent) skipper. Beirne actually looks like an authentic 6 whilst giving great lineout, etc etc.

I think as someone commented earlier, its one of the least cut and dried Lions selections - well at least since 97, when Geech chucked a fair few curve balls in.

Gatland has proven he'd drop captains if need be. Price would be one of the least surprising selections imo.

I’d have Price in the 1st XV but given its widely accepted that Murray was given the gig as he was clear first choice 9 at the time......

That selection is being reported in the Fail as well, focusing on Welsh omissions. I wonder if Liam is unfit after his HIA but I have no arguments about Hogg. It’s a close call between them regardless.

Adams can feel hard done by. He’s been good this tour and is the more rounded player than VDM, but maybe Gatland wants the latter a bulk as an option. VDM has also impressed so whilst I feel Adams is slightly hard done by, it’s not a totally weird selection.

Not sure about Lawes at blindside.

Farrell at sub for a 6:2 split- I could see that coming.

No Faletau is a reflection that he hasn’t been his usual brilliant self. Price starting is the right call based on form.

Daly at 13 I just don’t get. Harris every day of the week IMO or Henshaw with Aki at IC.

Puja wrote:

Banquo wrote:Good source- though I'm very dubious- has....if so, not a big fan of it at all.

1- Wyn Jones
2- LCD
3- Furlong
4- Itoje
5- Alun Wyn
6- Lawes
7- Curry
8- Conan
9- Price
10- Biggar
11- Duhan VDM
12- Henshaw
13- Daly
14- Watson
15- Hogg

I mean... that could be a lot, lot worse? No Murray/Farrell dream team at 9/10 to render the rest of the backs pointless (with no Aki at 12 to finish the job) and, while I'm no fan of Lawes at 6, at least he'd have Curry and Conan to provide the mobility and do all the work for him.

I don't think it's real, mostly because I don't see a world in which Gatland doesn't play Adams, but if you offered me that over what I fear Gatland might potentially unleash, I'd probably take it.

Puja

You were worried at the selection that one of the most successful lions coaches of all time might make. A bit over the top don’t you think?

Mellsblue wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:Assuming this is correct.... Kolbe v DVDM (with Daly for support) sticks out. As does the fact that it’s very much a form based selection, with the odd exception.
With no Russell, and accepting Smith hasn’t been in camp long enough to be selected, that’s about as attacking a backline as we could put out. Assuming that points to an expansive game plan, Curry has a long 80 mins ahead of him.

as I said, its a bit odd- genuinely good source, but an odd selection for me. e.g. for all Murray has been poor and Price ok, Murray was the stand in (and miraculously not permanent) skipper. Beirne actually looks like an authentic 6 whilst giving great lineout, etc etc.

I think as someone commented earlier, its one of the least cut and dried Lions selections - well at least since 97, when Geech chucked a fair few curve balls in.

Agreed on Beirne. Thought he was a shoo-in and still could be, of course. There are plenty of close calls across the park but then an undercooked Henshaw plus A. N. Other with at least one glaring weakness in the centres. That said, other than a handful of tweaks - Beirne for Lawes, Adams for DVDM and Harris for Daly (still meh, but Daly in d scares me) - I’d say you could argue he’s got it about right based on form and class/talent.

Beirne still looks the most complete 6 on tour with a more expansive game than Lawes. He is a big strong bloke in his own right and only about 3 lbs or so lighter than Lawes. So any Lawes power advantage is not clear cut and does not compensate for Beine's skill set. Lawes might be a useful bencher for a bit of impact.

EDIT : Re. the Bok back row - PSDT is a beast, but Kolisi and Smith are not large men at all by traditional SA standards and are not particularly physically threatening..

Lawes over Beirne is strange
VDM over Adams is also strange (although probably less damaging to the team), but it would fit the preference Garland sometimes shows for size over skill.

Son of Mathonwy wrote:Lawes over Beirne is strange
VDM over Adams is also strange (although probably less damaging to the team), but it would fit the preference Garland sometimes shows for size over skill.

If I wanted a more physical blind side then I’d pick Beirne every time. I’d understand if Gatland wanted a more mobile back row and went for Curry and Watson but I don’t quite get Lawes other than as an impact sub.

The Lions forwards benchers are a strong looking bunch : Sutherland, Owen, Sinkler, Henderson, Beirne, Watson.
Farrell on the bench - hardly an impact sub not a game changer.

Spiffy wrote:The Lions forwards benchers are a strong looking bunch : Sutherland, Owen, Sinkler, Henderson, Beirne, Watson.
Farrell on the bench - hardly an impact sub not a game changer.

Maybe that’s the intention, a bench of finishers. Farrell,is just there for cover surely? As you say he’s not an impact player.

I agree with most of the ‘?’s over Lawes/Beirne, VDM/Adams, Daly/Harris and the 6:2 split.

Trying to be positive, I think the impact players thing with Faz is a bit misleading. He doesn’t have to come on and make searing breaks. He appears to have a massive positive effect on those around him, according to seemingly every top level coach that has worked with him. Who knows what the game will require at that stage.

Though I would still much rather have the flexibility of Daly alongside and ditch Lawes/Henderson.

Sandydragon wrote:

Puja wrote:I mean... that could be a lot, lot worse? No Murray/Farrell dream team at 9/10 to render the rest of the backs pointless (with no Aki at 12 to finish the job) and, while I'm no fan of Lawes at 6, at least he'd have Curry and Conan to provide the mobility and do all the work for him.

I don't think it's real, mostly because I don't see a world in which Gatland doesn't play Adams, but if you offered me that over what I fear Gatland might potentially unleash, I'd probably take it.

Puja

You were worried at the selection that one of the most successful lions coaches of all time might make. A bit over the top don’t you think?

Not really? It's not a secret that he does like a bit of bosh and a controlling fly-half, so him deciding to play tight and physical and picking Murray/Farrell/Aki/Henshaw was very far from being out of the realms of possibility.

ETA. And he does appear to be selecting Lawes ahead of Beirne in defiance of all good sense, so I don't think my worry is entirely unfounded.

Puja

Sandydragon wrote:Daly at 13 I just don’t get. Harris every day of the week IMO or Henshaw with Aki at IC.

Daly has made 12 of 20 tackles when starting 13 on this tour against the Sharks x 2 and stormers. That is a big concern.

Big D wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:Assuming this is correct.... Kolbe v DVDM (with Daly for support) sticks out. As does the fact that it’s very much a form based selection, with the odd exception.
With no Russell, and accepting Smith hasn’t been in camp long enough to be selected, that’s about as attacking a backline as we could put out. Assuming that points to an expansive game plan, Curry has a long 80 mins ahead of him.

as I said, its a bit odd- genuinely good source, but an odd selection for me. e.g. for all Murray has been poor and Price ok, Murray was the stand in (and miraculously not permanent) skipper. Beirne actually looks like an authentic 6 whilst giving great lineout, etc etc.

I think as someone commented earlier, its one of the least cut and dried Lions selections - well at least since 97, when Geech chucked a fair few curve balls in.

Gatland has proven he'd drop captains if need be. Price would be one of the least surprising selections imo.

true. Times reportig this team apparently

Spiffy wrote:The Lions forwards benchers are a strong looking bunch : Sutherland, Owen, Sinkler, Henderson, Beirne, Watson.
Farrell on the bench - hardly an impact sub not a game changer.

6:2 made madder by having to effin Farrell

Big D wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:Daly at 13 I just don’t get. Harris every day of the week IMO or Henshaw with Aki at IC.

Daly has made 12 of 20 tackles when starting 13 on this tour against the Sharks x 2 and stormers. That is a big concern.

its why eddie doesnt play him there, his defence at 13 is average to poor, and pretty much always has been.

Banquo wrote:

Big D wrote:

Banquo wrote: as I said, its a bit odd- genuinely good source, but an odd selection for me. e.g. for all Murray has been poor and Price ok, Murray was the stand in (and miraculously not permanent) skipper. Beirne actually looks like an authentic 6 whilst giving great lineout, etc etc.

I think as someone commented earlier, its one of the least cut and dried Lions selections - well at least since 97, when Geech chucked a fair few curve balls in.

Gatland has proven he'd drop captains if need be. Price would be one of the least surprising selections imo.

true. Times reportig this team apparently

You can delete ‘apparently’.

Times- no George or Mako, unsurprisingly in the latter case.

Expected British & Irish Lions team to face South Africa
S Hogg; A Watson, E Daly, R Henshaw, D van der Merwe; D Biggar, A Price; W Jones, L Cowan-Dickie, T Furlong, A W Jones (c), M Itoje, C Lawes, T Curry, J Conan.
Replacements K Owens, R Sutherland, K Sinckler, T Beirne, H Watson, I Henderson, C Murray, O Farrell.

Daly needs to produce the performance of his life, ditto Lawes. Faz is the most undeserved selection ever tbh.

In Gats we trust

Banquo wrote:

Spiffy wrote:The Lions forwards benchers are a strong looking bunch : Sutherland, Owen, Sinkler, Henderson, Beirne, Watson.
Farrell on the bench - hardly an impact sub not a game changer.

6:2 made madder by having to effin Farrell

Credit where credit is due, unlike Spiffy, Gatland has gone 6:2 rather than 6:1 and selected* Murray as his replacement 9.
One injury in the back three and.... I can’t bring myself to type out the permutations.

*originally autocorrected to ‘dejected’ in an AI Freudian slip.

would Smith from the bench be any worse than Farrell has been?

morepork wrote:would Smith from the bench be any worse than Farrell has been?

prob not at 10, but faz at least has played12/13 in the event of outside back injury.

Mellsblue wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Spiffy wrote:The Lions forwards benchers are a strong looking bunch : Sutherland, Owen, Sinkler, Henderson, Beirne, Watson.
Farrell on the bench - hardly an impact sub not a game changer.

6:2 made madder by having to effin Farrell

Credit where credit is due, unlike Spiffy, Gatland has gone 6:2 rather than 6:1 and selected* Murray as his replacement 9.
One injury in the back three and.... I can’t bring myself to type out the permutations.

*originally autocorrected to ‘dejected’ in an AI Freudian slip.

Daly goes to back 3 and faz to centre. still not great