Re: QF v Fiji
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 7:50 am
Tinker, Failure, Shoulder, Cry?
A very pithy way of describing the entire campaign.
A very pithy way of describing the entire campaign.
Page 20 of 21
A very pithy way of describing the entire campaign.
Re: QF v Fiji
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 7:53 am
The side needs to feature Underhill, imo on top tackling form he’s our only forward who still merits the accolade of world class. I’d stick him on one flank with Curry or Earl on the other and play Ludlam at 8.
Re: QF v Fiji
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 7:57 am
But he hasn’t been on ‘top tackling form’ for a very long time.
Lawes will almost certainly play vs. SA, but Curry looks like he’s off the pace and is making mistakes from trying too hard to make an impact. I wouldn’t be totally a averse to swapping him out for Underhill, but it would be a big risk.
Lawes will almost certainly play vs. SA, but Curry looks like he’s off the pace and is making mistakes from trying too hard to make an impact. I wouldn’t be totally a averse to swapping him out for Underhill, but it would be a big risk.
Re: QF v Fiji
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 8:06 am
I’d love to believe Underhill has a 2019 semi type performance left in him, but as far as I can tell there’s little evidence he does.
But hey, Same Cane had been completely written off.
But hey, Same Cane had been completely written off.
Re: QF v Fiji
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 8:24 am
In the DT marking sùmmaries there is a statement that Chessum did not touch the ball at all. If that is true it means that throwing to one of our locks is not on the menu and any talk of Lawes not being in the 6 shirt is so much hot air. It also questions Chessum's effectiveness at the breakdown and his positional sense in open play. Basically, he scrummed and occasionally tackled.
If the DT is right, it also indicates how much the team depends on Itoje to provide an effective second row presence.
I have to admit that I would not have down-rated Chessum's performance based on observation/memory. He seemed to be in shot often indicating excellent pitch coverage and support. Should we be questioning his overall effectiveness though?
If the DT is right, it also indicates how much the team depends on Itoje to provide an effective second row presence.
I have to admit that I would not have down-rated Chessum's performance based on observation/memory. He seemed to be in shot often indicating excellent pitch coverage and support. Should we be questioning his overall effectiveness though?
Re: QF v Fiji
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 8:56 am
Re: QF v Fiji
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 9:02 am
That strikes me as complete bullshit from the DT - I can't be 100% certain because of beer, but I'm sure Chessum had the ball, several times. He certainly looked knackered when he came off, so he must've been doing something.Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 8:24 am In the DT marking sùmmaries there is a statement that Chessum did not touch the ball at all. If that is true it means that throwing to one of our locks is not on the menu and any talk of Lawes not being in the 6 shirt is so much hot air. It also questions Chessum's effectiveness at the breakdown and his positional sense in open play. Basically, he scrummed and occasionally tackled.
If the DT is right, it also indicates how much the team depends on Itoje to provide an effective second row presence.
I have to admit that I would not have down-rated Chessum's performance based on observation/memory. He seemed to be in shot often indicating excellent pitch coverage and support. Should we be questioning his overall effectiveness though?
Puja
Re: QF v Fiji
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 9:04 am
I dont think Chessum is at the level he was when he first came into the side. That injury has certainly set him back. It was noticeable that Lawes and Itoje were the primary l/o targets.
Checked ESPN. Chessum made one pass. Zero carries. 11 tackles, 3 misses.
Dan Cole didnt touch the ball once.
Checked ESPN. Chessum made one pass. Zero carries. 11 tackles, 3 misses.
Dan Cole didnt touch the ball once.
Re: QF v Fiji
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 9:14 am
strong beer, thatPuja wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 9:02 amThat strikes me as complete bullshit from the DT - I can't be 100% certain because of beer, but I'm sure Chessum had the ball, several times. He certainly looked knackered when he came off, so he must've been doing something.Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 8:24 am In the DT marking sùmmaries there is a statement that Chessum did not touch the ball at all. If that is true it means that throwing to one of our locks is not on the menu and any talk of Lawes not being in the 6 shirt is so much hot air. It also questions Chessum's effectiveness at the breakdown and his positional sense in open play. Basically, he scrummed and occasionally tackled.
If the DT is right, it also indicates how much the team depends on Itoje to provide an effective second row presence.
I have to admit that I would not have down-rated Chessum's performance based on observation/memory. He seemed to be in shot often indicating excellent pitch coverage and support. Should we be questioning his overall effectiveness though?
Puja
Re: QF v Fiji
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 9:22 am
If his job is just to hit every ruck, then that's his job. Strange, though, when he's a relatively effective carrier.Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 8:24 am In the DT marking sùmmaries there is a statement that Chessum did not touch the ball at all. If that is true it means that throwing to one of our locks is not on the menu and any talk of Lawes not being in the 6 shirt is so much hot air. It also questions Chessum's effectiveness at the breakdown and his positional sense in open play. Basically, he scrummed and occasionally tackled.
If the DT is right, it also indicates how much the team depends on Itoje to provide an effective second row presence.
I have to admit that I would not have down-rated Chessum's performance based on observation/memory. He seemed to be in shot often indicating excellent pitch coverage and support. Should we be questioning his overall effectiveness though?
Re: QF v Fiji
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 9:24 am
Chessum made one absolute monster hit which led to a Lawes turnover the phase after. The commentators bigged up the hit but commenced the Lawes love in as he made the turnover.
ESPN stats have him making a pass but no carries. So he touched the ball. According to these stats Cole, George and Curry also ran for no metres. Feels like there was a definite split in duties for the forwards of who was carrying and who was on ruck duty. Curry made 20 tackles, Chessum made 11, George 13 and Cole 6.
ESPN stats have him making a pass but no carries. So he touched the ball. According to these stats Cole, George and Curry also ran for no metres. Feels like there was a definite split in duties for the forwards of who was carrying and who was on ruck duty. Curry made 20 tackles, Chessum made 11, George 13 and Cole 6.
Re: QF v Fiji
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 10:02 am
FKAS wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 9:24 am Chessum made one absolute monster hit which led to a Lawes turnover the phase after. The commentators bigged up the hit but commenced the Lawes love in as he made the turnover.
ESPN stats have him making a pass but no carries. So he touched the ball. According to these stats Cole, George and Curry also ran for no metres. Feels like there was a definite split in duties for the forwards of who was carrying and who was on ruck duty. Curry made 20 tackles, Chessum made 11, George 13 and Cole 6.
I've highlighted Chessum before. He is the one forward in the England pack that has that undefinable quality "Dog". You can smell it all over the park with South Africa, especially Kwagga. It's the difference.
Re: QF v Fiji
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 10:15 am
Incidentally, game highlighted the need to actually think about your bench in terms of injury cover, esp in the backs, as well as impact. The hokey-cokey when Smith went off was ludicrous and unnecessary.
Re: QF v Fiji
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 11:32 am
Kwagga is excellent he’s like a Saffa Neil Back - really punches above his weight. Unfortunately I felt the complete opposite when it comes to Itoje and Lawes in terms of physicality.UKHamlet wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 10:02 amFKAS wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 9:24 am Chessum made one absolute monster hit which led to a Lawes turnover the phase after. The commentators bigged up the hit but commenced the Lawes love in as he made the turnover.
ESPN stats have him making a pass but no carries. So he touched the ball. According to these stats Cole, George and Curry also ran for no metres. Feels like there was a definite split in duties for the forwards of who was carrying and who was on ruck duty. Curry made 20 tackles, Chessum made 11, George 13 and Cole 6.
I've highlighted Chessum before. He is the one forward in the England pack that has that undefinable quality "Dog". You can smell it all over the park with South Africa, especially Kwagga. It's the difference.
Re: QF v Fiji
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 11:34 am
Gosh, you never said.jngf wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 11:32 amUnfortunately I felt the complete opposite when it comes to Itoje and Lawes in terms of physicality.UKHamlet wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 10:02 amFKAS wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 9:24 am Chessum made one absolute monster hit which led to a Lawes turnover the phase after. The commentators bigged up the hit but commenced the Lawes love in as he made the turnover.
ESPN stats have him making a pass but no carries. So he touched the ball. According to these stats Cole, George and Curry also ran for no metres. Feels like there was a definite split in duties for the forwards of who was carrying and who was on ruck duty. Curry made 20 tackles, Chessum made 11, George 13 and Cole 6.
I've highlighted Chessum before. He is the one forward in the England pack that has that undefinable quality "Dog". You can smell it all over the park with South Africa, especially Kwagga. It's the difference.
Re: QF v Fiji
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 12:07 pm
Just out of interest, apart from Australia, who are the other teams that have faltered (i.e. gone out to someone they shouldn't have).loudnconfident wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2023 10:55 pmI would agree. It could be better - but it could be a f"*k times worse. And S(insert name) B(ditto) gave a good post-match interview. Which is something.
Look, I'd be delighted to be in a semi final, but the narrative (not on here, but in the media) that it proves the doubters wrong is as laughable as it was predictable. Everyone knowledgeable knew that England (and Wales and Argentina) were a bit shit but that they had a great chance at the semis.
Re: QF v Fiji
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 12:15 pm
None. I think the QF line ups were predictable - France/NZ & Ireland/SA could have gone either way in the group stages.Cameo wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 12:07 pmJust out of interest, apart from Australia, who are the other teams that have faltered (i.e. gone out to someone they shouldn't have).loudnconfident wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2023 10:55 pmI would agree. It could be better - but it could be a f"*k times worse. And S(insert name) B(ditto) gave a good post-match interview. Which is something.
Look, I'd be delighted to be in a semi final, but the narrative (not on here, but in the media) that it proves the doubters wrong is as laughable as it was predictable. Everyone knowledgeable knew that England (and Wales and Argentina) were a bit shot but that they had a great chance at the semis.
Our only 'true' test is coming next week. Yes, a few of us didn't think we would get this far, but by no means should anyone be surprised we have.
Re: QF v Fiji
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 12:19 pm
Well that’s bollox because Cole dived on the ball. I’ve never trusted these stats anyway.fivepointer wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 9:04 am I dont think Chessum is at the level he was when he first came into the side. That injury has certainly set him back. It was noticeable that Lawes and Itoje were the primary l/o targets.
Checked ESPN. Chessum made one pass. Zero carries. 11 tackles, 3 misses.
Dan Cole didnt touch the ball once.
Re: QF v Fiji
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 2:12 pm
I'm glad someone mentioned this. I was convinced I saw him dive on the ball then those stats came up and I doubted myself for a second.Beasties wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 12:19 pmWell that’s bollox because Cole dived on the ball. I’ve never trusted these stats anyway.fivepointer wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 9:04 am I dont think Chessum is at the level he was when he first came into the side. That injury has certainly set him back. It was noticeable that Lawes and Itoje were the primary l/o targets.
Checked ESPN. Chessum made one pass. Zero carries. 11 tackles, 3 misses.
Dan Cole didnt touch the ball once.
Re: QF v Fiji
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 2:14 pm
This is what it’s come to. We’re debating whether Cole dived on a ball.Insouciant wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 2:12 pmI'm glad someone mentioned this. I was convinced I saw him dive on the ball then those stats came up and I doubted myself for a second.Beasties wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 12:19 pmWell that’s bollox because Cole dived on the ball. I’ve never trusted these stats anyway.fivepointer wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 9:04 am I dont think Chessum is at the level he was when he first came into the side. That injury has certainly set him back. It was noticeable that Lawes and Itoje were the primary l/o targets.
Checked ESPN. Chessum made one pass. Zero carries. 11 tackles, 3 misses.
Dan Cole didnt touch the ball once.
Re: QF v Fiji
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 2:23 pm
Yes, I’m sure they’ll be quaking in the high veldMellsblue wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 2:14 pmThis is what it’s come to. We’re debating whether Cole dived on a ball.Insouciant wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 2:12 pmI'm glad someone mentioned this. I was convinced I saw him dive on the ball then those stats came up and I doubted myself for a second.
Re: QF v Fiji
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 2:26 pm
On the rugby press they really are a sycophantic bunch - daily Torygraph blowing smoke rings up the ice man’s fundament
(Pitbull duly excepted) - go web harvest that
(Pitbull duly excepted) - go web harvest that
Re: QF v Fiji
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 2:35 pm
I think the French and Irish camps will consider themselves to have faltered, arguably their two greatest teams falling at almost the first hurdle against teams they beat the last time out. The fact we are in awe of the matches will be little comfort I should think.Cameo wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 12:07 pmJust out of interest, apart from Australia, who are the other teams that have faltered (i.e. gone out to someone they shouldn't have).loudnconfident wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2023 10:55 pmI would agree. It could be better - but it could be a f"*k times worse. And S(insert name) B(ditto) gave a good post-match interview. Which is something.
Look, I'd be delighted to be in a semi final, but the narrative (not on here, but in the media) that it proves the doubters wrong is as laughable as it was predictable. Everyone knowledgeable knew that England (and Wales and Argentina) were a bit shit but that they had a great chance at the semis.
Re: QF v Fiji
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 2:36 pm
It's bollocks, innit? He was clearly pushed.Mellsblue wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 2:14 pmThis is what it’s come to. We’re debating whether Cole dived on a ball.Insouciant wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 2:12 pmI'm glad someone mentioned this. I was convinced I saw him dive on the ball then those stats came up and I doubted myself for a second.
Re: QF v Fiji
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 3:09 pm
When he actually plays well are you surprised. Though the DT gave Lawes and Earl higher rating. And rightly so.