Brexit delayed

[Stones of granite]

I'd have thought that if we learned one thing last year it was to not take polling too seriously.

Some lessons, it seems, are all too easily forgotten.

2014 Indy ref polling was pretty accurate. And if we're ignoring all polls, what else do we have to look at public opinion? Dramatic headlines aren't gospel, gents.

Depends how close to the Referendum you look. As close as 1 month before, they were still showing the Yes vote at 35-38% The YouGov poll swung several times between Yes and No winning in the couple of weeks leading up to the Referendum.

[Len]

See this is what gets me, I may be wrong (often am), but I don't believe it was stated anywhere by Vote Leave that they would give £350 mill a week to the NHS.

They certainly insinuated it by saying 'lets give it to tue NHS instead!' On that fucking bus.

I had a chat with an older woman whilst waiting for a train after the referendum who was very excited about the extra 350 million. Even asked me what I thought they should spend it on

[morepork]

See this is what gets me, I may be wrong (often am), but I don't believe it was stated anywhere by Vote Leave that they would give £350 mill a week to the NHS.

They certainly insinuated it by saying 'lets give it to tue NHS instead!' On that fucking bus.

I had a chat with an older woman whilst waiting for a train after the referendum who was very excited about the extra 350 million. Even asked me what I thought they should spend it on

Crack and sex toys.

[Stones of granite]

See this is what gets me, I may be wrong (often am), but I don't believe it was stated anywhere by Vote Leave that they would give £350 mill a week to the NHS.

They certainly insinuated it by saying 'lets give it to tue NHS instead!' On that fucking bus.

I had a chat with an older woman whilst waiting for a train after the referendum who was very excited about the extra 350 million. Even asked me what I thought they should spend it on

Crack and sex toys.

....is what they opted for

[Banquo]

See this is what gets me, I may be wrong (often am), but I don't believe it was stated anywhere by Vote Leave that they would give £350 mill a week to the NHS.

It was the Vote Leave bus that had the words below


But Farage denied saying it, as he wasn't part of the official Vote Leave campaign. So Johnson, Leadsom are pinned with that, as they actually are still in government.

[Mellsblue]

It doesn't explicitly state that a full £350 mil a week would be spent on the NHS but they knew how it would be read and how the masses who'd done no research would read it.
It's bloody underhand and deceitful but it's a clever tactic.

[Stones of granite]

See this is what gets me, I may be wrong (often am), but I don't believe it was stated anywhere by Vote Leave that they would give £350 mill a week to the NHS.

It was the Vote Leave bus that had the words below


But Farage denied saying it, as he wasn't part of the official Vote Leave campaign. So Johnson, Leadsom are pinned with that, as they actually are still in government.

The bus was the most visible, but they also had posters and leaflets printed with the same message.


I have had people tell me that the phrasing is such that it is obviously merely a suggestion of how the money could be spent, but I have 2 problems with that.
1. The £350million figure was a lie in the first place as it gross of the rebate
2. Even if a English Language Professor can show that the phrasing doesn't guarantee that the money would be spent on the NHS, it is clearly intended to strongly suggest to the ordinary voter that that would be the intention.

[morepork]

FAKE NEWS! BEST CAMPAIGN EVER! SAD!

[Banquo]

See this is what gets me, I may be wrong (often am), but I don't believe it was stated anywhere by Vote Leave that they would give £350 mill a week to the NHS.

It was the Vote Leave bus that had the words below


But Farage denied saying it, as he wasn't part of the official Vote Leave campaign. So Johnson, Leadsom are pinned with that, as they actually are still in government.

The bus was the most visible, but they also had posters and leaflets printed with the same message.


I have had people tell me that the phrasing is such that it is obviously merely a suggestion of how the money could be spent, but I have 2 problems with that.
1. The £350million figure was a lie in the first place as it gross of the rebate
2. Even if a English Language Professor can show that the phrasing doesn't guarantee that the money would be spent on the NHS, it is clearly intended to strongly suggest to the ordinary voter that that would be the intention.

agreed, a serious con job. Mind, Remain shared a number of made up scenarios as well.

[Stones of granite]

It was the Vote Leave bus that had the words below


But Farage denied saying it, as he wasn't part of the official Vote Leave campaign. So Johnson, Leadsom are pinned with that, as they actually are still in government.

The bus was the most visible, but they also had posters and leaflets printed with the same message.


I have had people tell me that the phrasing is such that it is obviously merely a suggestion of how the money could be spent, but I have 2 problems with that.
1. The £350million figure was a lie in the first place as it gross of the rebate
2. Even if a English Language Professor can show that the phrasing doesn't guarantee that the money would be spent on the NHS, it is clearly intended to strongly suggest to the ordinary voter that that would be the intention.

agreed, a serious con job. Mind, Remain shared a number of made up scenarios as well.

Yes they did. I was just as unimpressed by their campaign.

[Banquo]

The bus was the most visible, but they also had posters and leaflets printed with the same message.


I have had people tell me that the phrasing is such that it is obviously merely a suggestion of how the money could be spent, but I have 2 problems with that.
1. The £350million figure was a lie in the first place as it gross of the rebate
2. Even if a English Language Professor can show that the phrasing doesn't guarantee that the money would be spent on the NHS, it is clearly intended to strongly suggest to the ordinary voter that that would be the intention.

agreed, a serious con job. Mind, Remain shared a number of made up scenarios as well.

Yes they did. I was just as unimpressed by their campaign.

yep, both just different shades of bollox

[Digby]

And now we have May saying the Scots couldn't vote on independence as they don't know what the Brexit deal will look like, but it's okay we held the Brexit referendum when we didn't even know Brexit meant Brexit and basically that's a hard brexit which isn't remotely what an awful lot of people advocating for leave said about the single market during the referendum.

Scottish independence is actually quite interesting to me in a way it hasn't been in the past, mostly I don't care either way though I fail to see how they pay for an awful lot of stuff, but if they were to remain in the EU then that would be interesting.

[Stones of granite]

And now we have May saying the Scots couldn't vote on independence as they don't know what the Brexit deal will look like, but it's okay we held the Brexit referendum when we didn't even know Brexit meant Brexit and basically that's a hard brexit which isn't remotely what an awful lot of people advocating for leave said about the single market during the referendum.

Scottish independence is actually quite interesting to me in a way it hasn't been in the past, mostly I don't care either way though I fail to see how they pay for an awful lot of stuff, but if they were to remain in the EU then that would be interesting.

I can't see any way that Scotland can remain in the EU now. It looks certain that any Referendum will not happen until Brexit is concluded, then it's too late to remain in. At the earliest, we would be looking at 2020 for independence, and faced with applying for membership as a new State. It's not an attractive prospect (compared with remaining).

[Digby]

And now we have May saying the Scots couldn't vote on independence as they don't know what the Brexit deal will look like, but it's okay we held the Brexit referendum when we didn't even know Brexit meant Brexit and basically that's a hard brexit which isn't remotely what an awful lot of people advocating for leave said about the single market during the referendum.

Scottish independence is actually quite interesting to me in a way it hasn't been in the past, mostly I don't care either way though I fail to see how they pay for an awful lot of stuff, but if they were to remain in the EU then that would be interesting.

I can't see any way that Scotland can remain in the EU now. It looks certain that any Referendum will not happen until Brexit is concluded, then it's too late to remain in. At the earliest, we would be looking at 2020 for independence, and faced with applying for membership as a new State. It's not an attractive prospect (compared with remaining).

These aren't decisions which stand for the ages though. The UK has just voted to leave after having voted to join a good few years back, things change. Of course just because things can change doesn't mean they should or will

[bruce]

See this is what gets me, I may be wrong (often am), but I don't believe it was stated anywhere by Vote Leave that they would give £350 mill a week to the NHS.

It was the Vote Leave bus that had the words below


But Farage denied saying it, as he wasn't part of the official Vote Leave campaign. So Johnson, Leadsom are pinned with that, as they actually are still in government.

The bus was the most visible, but they also had posters and leaflets printed with the same message.


I have had people tell me that the phrasing is such that it is obviously merely a suggestion of how the money could be spent, but I have 2 problems with that.
1. The £350million figure was a lie in the first place as it gross of the rebate
2. Even if a English Language Professor can show that the phrasing doesn't guarantee that the money would be spent on the NHS, it is clearly intended to strongly suggest to the ordinary voter that that would be the intention.

Yeah I was basing my initial query/post on the bus, which I don't particularly see a problem with. The poster on the other hand, which I hadn't seen before, is very much more implicit.

[canta_brian]

It was the Vote Leave bus that had the words below


But Farage denied saying it, as he wasn't part of the official Vote Leave campaign. So Johnson, Leadsom are pinned with that, as they actually are still in government.

The bus was the most visible, but they also had posters and leaflets printed with the same message.


I have had people tell me that the phrasing is such that it is obviously merely a suggestion of how the money could be spent, but I have 2 problems with that.
1. The £350million figure was a lie in the first place as it gross of the rebate
2. Even if a English Language Professor can show that the phrasing doesn't guarantee that the money would be spent on the NHS, it is clearly intended to strongly suggest to the ordinary voter that that would be the intention.

Yeah I was basing my initial query/post on the bus, which I don't particularly see a problem with. The poster on the other hand, which I hadn't seen before, is very much more implicit.

I think you are being far too generous. The poster is pretty explicit, and the bus was written in a way that was highly suggestive of the idea that leaving the Eu would lead to that figure going to the nhs. The fact that it could be argued by the leave campaign that they never explicitly stated that this was the case is more an indictment of their tactics than anything else.

The idea that the UK is following through on the results of a close to 50-50 vote won through these sort of tactics shows why a referendum is a dangerous way of making important decisions.

[Which Tyler]

It doesn't explicitly state that a full £350 mil a week would be spent on the NHS but they knew how it would be read and how the masses who'd done no research would read it.
It's bloody underhand and deceitful but it's a clever tactic.

It's right alongside adverts like "new cornflakes, contains no cyanide!"

[Digby]

We now have details starting to come out or the Great Repeal Bill, in which the government are seeking power for the PM to act as a dictator, i.e. without having to get parliament to ratify certain details.

Now they're only going to ask for that in small areas, or so they say, but tbh I wouldn't touch that with a barge pole. I'm not against looking to save some parliamentary time, though in part those who wanted Breixt are at some point going to have to face up to the fact it really is a lot of work and get on with it rather than trying to bypass parliament. What I think would be reasonable is rather than grant PM power to have instead a cross party committee recommend what would likely be an extensive list of the minor changes, that such list should be subject to an almost perfunctory approval from parliament, and that there should be strong sunset clauses so we can revisit any changes which have an impact beyond that initially considered

[Banquo]

We now have details starting to come out or the Great Repeal Bill, in which the government are seeking power for the PM to act as a dictator, i.e. without having to get parliament to ratify certain details.

Now they're only going to ask for that in small areas, or so they say, but tbh I wouldn't touch that with a barge pole. I'm not against looking to save some parliamentary time, though in part those who wanted Breixt are at some point going to have to face up to the fact it really is a lot of work and get on with it rather than trying to bypass parliament. What I think would be reasonable is rather than grant PM power to have instead a cross party committee recommend what would likely be an extensive list of the minor changes, that such list should be subject to an almost perfunctory approval from parliament, and that there should be strong sunset clauses so we can revisit any changes which have an impact beyond that initially considered

The scope will be consulted and voted on.

[Digby]

We now have details starting to come out or the Great Repeal Bill, in which the government are seeking power for the PM to act as a dictator, i.e. without having to get parliament to ratify certain details.

Now they're only going to ask for that in small areas, or so they say, but tbh I wouldn't touch that with a barge pole. I'm not against looking to save some parliamentary time, though in part those who wanted Breixt are at some point going to have to face up to the fact it really is a lot of work and get on with it rather than trying to bypass parliament. What I think would be reasonable is rather than grant PM power to have instead a cross party committee recommend what would likely be an extensive list of the minor changes, that such list should be subject to an almost perfunctory approval from parliament, and that there should be strong sunset clauses so we can revisit any changes which have an impact beyond that initially considered

The scope will be consulted and voted on.

I don't honestly see why they're asking for such licence in the first place, well I do but it doesn't scream class, democracy, or even basic decency. And this isn't the first time they've sought something of a sovereign approach now we're free of the shackles of Europe.Simply there's no sane argument imo that we should leave the clutches of the EU to adopt sovereign powers in its place, whilst I don't support Brexit I can see why people would want to leave to EU to run our own show, it's just that doesn't include behaviour that Erdogan would approve of for me

[Banquo]

We now have details starting to come out or the Great Repeal Bill, in which the government are seeking power for the PM to act as a dictator, i.e. without having to get parliament to ratify certain details.

Now they're only going to ask for that in small areas, or so they say, but tbh I wouldn't touch that with a barge pole. I'm not against looking to save some parliamentary time, though in part those who wanted Breixt are at some point going to have to face up to the fact it really is a lot of work and get on with it rather than trying to bypass parliament. What I think would be reasonable is rather than grant PM power to have instead a cross party committee recommend what would likely be an extensive list of the minor changes, that such list should be subject to an almost perfunctory approval from parliament, and that there should be strong sunset clauses so we can revisit any changes which have an impact beyond that initially considered

The scope will be consulted and voted on.

I don't honestly see why they're asking for such licence in the first place, well I do but it doesn't scream class, democracy, or even basic decency. And this isn't the first time they've sought something of a sovereign approach now we're free of the shackles of Europe.Simply there's no sane argument imo that we should leave the clutches of the EU to adopt sovereign powers in its place, whilst I don't support Brexit I can see why people would want to leave to EU to run our own show, it's just that doesn't include behaviour that Erdogan would approve of for me

at face value, its about removing bureaucracy and not wasting time in parliament that could be better spent on other substantive stuff. I assume you've seen something I haven't by your reaction to what I heard was the proposal.

[Digby]

The scope will be consulted and voted on.

I don't honestly see why they're asking for such licence in the first place, well I do but it doesn't scream class, democracy, or even basic decency. And this isn't the first time they've sought something of a sovereign approach now we're free of the shackles of Europe.Simply there's no sane argument imo that we should leave the clutches of the EU to adopt sovereign powers in its place, whilst I don't support Brexit I can see why people would want to leave to EU to run our own show, it's just that doesn't include behaviour that Erdogan would approve of for me

at face value, its about removing bureaucracy and not wasting time in parliament that could be better spent on other substantive stuff. I assume you've seen something I haven't by your reaction to what I heard was the proposal.

I object in principle to removing parliamentary oversight, however as noted if there's a case for it I'd do it by cross party committee with strong revision built in, that seems reasonable to me or at least acceptable. Mainly for Breixters saying there's a shit load of work and they need to circumvent parliament, they should have thought about the sheer volume of work ahead of the referendum and made much clearer what the demands on the civil service and government would be (and what the costs will be), they've got what the wanted with the vote, now do the work rather than whine about it as it's work they wanted and asked for

[Eugene Wrayburn]

The scope will be consulted and voted on.

I don't honestly see why they're asking for such licence in the first place, well I do but it doesn't scream class, democracy, or even basic decency. And this isn't the first time they've sought something of a sovereign approach now we're free of the shackles of Europe.Simply there's no sane argument imo that we should leave the clutches of the EU to adopt sovereign powers in its place, whilst I don't support Brexit I can see why people would want to leave to EU to run our own show, it's just that doesn't include behaviour that Erdogan would approve of for me

at face value, its about removing bureaucracy and not wasting time in parliament that could be better spent on other substantive stuff. I assume you've seen something I haven't by your reaction to what I heard was the proposal.

Not even slightly. Well except to the degree that democracy is bureaucratic and dictatorship is marvellously efficient.

[Digby]

I don't honestly see why they're asking for such licence in the first place, well I do but it doesn't scream class, democracy, or even basic decency. And this isn't the first time they've sought something of a sovereign approach now we're free of the shackles of Europe.Simply there's no sane argument imo that we should leave the clutches of the EU to adopt sovereign powers in its place, whilst I don't support Brexit I can see why people would want to leave to EU to run our own show, it's just that doesn't include behaviour that Erdogan would approve of for me

at face value, its about removing bureaucracy and not wasting time in parliament that could be better spent on other substantive stuff. I assume you've seen something I haven't by your reaction to what I heard was the proposal.

Not even slightly. Well except to the degree that democracy is bureaucratic and dictatorship is marvellously efficient.

Pretty much. It's always going to be easier for the executive if they can have more power to act unilaterally, but that's just not how many of us see a democracy as working.

Though I'd again add seeing as we are in giant hole I'd go for a cross party committee making a long list of recommendations to parliament that get cleared in a very quick vote, and anything the committee can't agree on should go before a fuller parliamentary review. I'm not happy about such, but we are sadly where we are

[Banquo]

I don't honestly see why they're asking for such licence in the first place, well I do but it doesn't scream class, democracy, or even basic decency. And this isn't the first time they've sought something of a sovereign approach now we're free of the shackles of Europe.Simply there's no sane argument imo that we should leave the clutches of the EU to adopt sovereign powers in its place, whilst I don't support Brexit I can see why people would want to leave to EU to run our own show, it's just that doesn't include behaviour that Erdogan would approve of for me

at face value, its about removing bureaucracy and not wasting time in parliament that could be better spent on other substantive stuff. I assume you've seen something I haven't by your reaction to what I heard was the proposal.

Not even slightly. Well except to the degree that democracy is bureaucratic and dictatorship is marvellously efficient.

well you've read something I haven't then. Fair enough, better read up- can you point me to the proposal.