RugbyRebels

Lord Lucan wrote:

SerjeantWildgoose wrote:

Lord Lucan wrote:Saddam, Gadaffi and Assad knew how to deal with their own people, we don't, its as simple as that ...

ISIL/ISIS/IS/AQIM/Daesh or whatever you want to call them spring from those who used to prop up Saddam and Gadaffi - get to know your enemy or shut the fuck up and let those of us who have had to do so get on with it.

I know where they came from chap, I thought the point I was making was obvious, I see I shall have to explain for your benefit.
If Saddam etc, were still in power the aforementioned terror groups would not exist, as they would be living under the iron fist of said dictators.


Hope this helps.

They WERE the iron fist of said dictators you witless twat. Perhaps you're forgetting Halabja, the murder of Yvonne Fletcher, the bombing of PanAm 103 or the SEMTEX that Gadaffi shipped to the IRA, which I still have to check under my fecking car for every morning!

OptimisticJock wrote:

SerjeantWildgoose wrote:

Lord Lucan wrote:Saddam, Gadaffi and Assad knew how to deal with their own people, we don't, its as simple as that ...

ISIL/ISIS/IS/AQIM/Daesh or whatever you want to call them spring from those who used to prop up Saddam and Gadaffi - get to know your enemy or shut the fuck up and let those of us who have had to do so get on with it.

Lord Lucan wrote:... get as much intel out of them as possible, with the use of waterboarding, the rack, whatever it takes, then give them one in the back of the head, and dump them on a rubbish tip, they won't be missed.

I wondered yesterday, how long it would take before someone on this thread matched the depths of depravity of those who commit these vile attacks. I had no real doubts who would win the race. Torture in any form has been completely discredited as a technique for extracting reliable information and I'm sure you know this, so clearly it is a gut-response for violent revenge - and I get that. Anyone who is not moved to the point of wanting to exact biblical retribution would not be human. But what sets us apart from these people is our ability in the face of such miserable pressure, to temper the urge to lash out with the same indiscriminate violence that we find so repugnant.

So... does that mean no more MOABs?

Jaysus I hope not!!!! MOABs is precision weapons that are specifically designed to leave all wimins and childers within a radius of 700 miles unharmed, except for the odd bruise that may be incurred by the secondary fallout of Skittles and furbies.

Lord Lucan wrote:I see you are taking the moral high ground in regards to dealing with those hell bent on destroying us, so how would you deal with it?

Our destruction may be their aim, but whatever our politicians might say (Offering a convenient opportunity to appear strong by deploying the Army onto the streets of Britain during an election campaign!), they do NOT pose an existential threat to our democracy.

I find Monday night's attack as repugnant as anyone; having seen the aftermath of similar attacks up close, perhaps my repugnance is better informed than many. But the visceral response is exactly what they are seeking to provoke and exactly the response that will serve to continue the line of those who believe that such attacks are justified.

SerjeantWildgoose wrote:

Lord Lucan wrote:Saddam, Gadaffi and Assad knew how to deal with their own people, we don't, its as simple as that ...

ISIL/ISIS/IS/AQIM/Daesh or whatever you want to call them spring from those who used to prop up Saddam and Gadaffi - get to know your enemy or shut the fuck up and let those of us who have had to do so get on with it.

Lord Lucan wrote:... get as much intel out of them as possible, with the use of waterboarding, the rack, whatever it takes, then give them one in the back of the head, and dump them on a rubbish tip, they won't be missed.

I wondered yesterday, how long it would take before someone on this thread matched the depths of depravity of those who commit these vile attacks. I had no real doubts who would win the race. Torture in any form has been completely discredited as a technique for extracting reliable information and I'm sure you know this, so clearly it is a gut-response for violent revenge - and I get that. Anyone who is not moved to the point of wanting to exact biblical retribution would not be human. But what sets us apart from these people is our ability in the face of such miserable pressure, to temper the urge to lash out with the same indiscriminate violence that we find so repugnant.

^^^

This guy knows

Good on yer Sarge.

SerjeantWildgoose wrote: They WERE the iron fist of said dictators you witless twat. Perhaps you're forgetting Halabja, the murder of Yvonne Fletcher, the bombing of PanAm 103 or the SEMTEX that Gadaffi shipped to the IRA, which I still have to check under my fecking car for every morning!

Regime change has been a human nightmare and an economic triumph.

SerjeantWildgoose wrote:

OptimisticJock wrote:

SerjeantWildgoose wrote:
ISIL/ISIS/IS/AQIM/Daesh or whatever you want to call them spring from those who used to prop up Saddam and Gadaffi - get to know your enemy or shut the fuck up and let those of us who have had to do so get on with it.



I wondered yesterday, how long it would take before someone on this thread matched the depths of depravity of those who commit these vile attacks. I had no real doubts who would win the race. Torture in any form has been completely discredited as a technique for extracting reliable information and I'm sure you know this, so clearly it is a gut-response for violent revenge - and I get that. Anyone who is not moved to the point of wanting to exact biblical retribution would not be human. But what sets us apart from these people is our ability in the face of such miserable pressure, to temper the urge to lash out with the same indiscriminate violence that we find so repugnant.

So... does that mean no more MOABs?

Jaysus I hope not!!!! MOABs is precision weapons that are specifically designed to leave all wimins and childers within a radius of 700 miles unharmed, except for the odd bruise that may be incurred by the secondary fallout of Skittles and furbies.

Fuck the furbies. Hairy wee cunts.

SerjeantWildgoose wrote:

Lord Lucan wrote:I see you are taking the moral high ground in regards to dealing with those hell bent on destroying us, so how would you deal with it?

Our destruction may be their aim, but whatever our politicians might say (Offering a convenient opportunity to appear strong by deploying the Army onto the streets of Britain during an election campaign!), they do NOT pose an existential threat to our democracy.

I find Monday night's attack as repugnant as anyone; having seen the aftermath of similar attacks up close, perhaps my repugnance is better informed than many. But the visceral response is exactly what they are seeking to provoke and exactly the response that will serve to continue the line of those who believe that such attacks are justified.

Quite. A crack down on muslims is exactly what the attackers want.

SerjeantWildgoose wrote:

Lord Lucan wrote:

SerjeantWildgoose wrote:
ISIL/ISIS/IS/AQIM/Daesh or whatever you want to call them spring from those who used to prop up Saddam and Gadaffi - get to know your enemy or shut the fuck up and let those of us who have had to do so get on with it.

I know where they came from chap, I thought the point I was making was obvious, I see I shall have to explain for your benefit.
If Saddam etc, were still in power the aforementioned terror groups would not exist, as they would be living under the iron fist of said dictators.


Hope this helps.

They WERE the iron fist of said dictators you witless twat. Perhaps you're forgetting Halabja, the murder of Yvonne Fletcher, the bombing of PanAm 103 or the SEMTEX that Gadaffi shipped to the IRA, which I still have to check under my fecking car for every morning!

With all due respect SWG, I think his point is that Ghaddafi and other ME despots kept the boyos in line. Once they were removed (by HillObama in 2011 for example), the lads decided that resulting vacuum could only be occupied by a bit of knacker boxing.

morepork wrote:VG....suspect is the operative term, surely. If you conduct interrogation under the assumption that a suspect "knows" something, then that logic works. However, the assumption can certainly be incorrect. What use torture then?

Like most things in life getting the info you need to achieve an objective, whether it be a winning in the gee gees, or a deft political maneuver, is based on probabilities. It's built into the fabric of the universe, mate.

For shur, there'll be some casualties, but the State's not bothered by that, is it?

The fact is that, if you've got intelligence on someone, and there's a good possibility that they have information on your mark, when all else fails to extract info from them, you're going to use EITs.

In fairness to western intelligence agencies, they're a bit more polite about it, and a bit more civilised. Mind you, the SAVAK learned some tricks from the CIA. Instead of raping yer man, ye rape his wife, and make sure its anal penetration - much more effective. Straight from the Divil's handbook.

Vengeful Glutton wrote:

morepork wrote:VG....suspect is the operative term, surely. If you conduct interrogation under the assumption that a suspect "knows" something, then that logic works. However, the assumption can certainly be incorrect. What use torture then?

Like most things in life getting the info you need to achieve an objective, whether it be a winning in the gee gees, or a deft political maneuver, is based on probabilities. It's built into the fabric of the universe, mate.

For shur, there'll be some casualties, but the State's not bothered by that, is it?

The fact is that, if you've got intelligence on someone, and there's a good possibility that they have information on your mark, when all else fails to extract info from them, you're going to use EITs.

In fairness to western intelligence agencies, they're a bit more polite about it, and a bit more civilised. Mind you, the SAVAK learned some tricks from the CIA. Instead of raping yer man, ye rape his wife, and make sure its anal penetration - much more effective. Straight from the Divil's handbook.

Jesus Christ. Too much information....

I still think the assumption is fundamentally flawed.

Perhaps, but torture is till being used, and it will continue to be used by Military and State intelligence operatives. So in some ways it's clearly serves a purpose, and it's being refined and simplified all the time. Sensory deprivation appears to be the "in" thing these days.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_torture

Which Tyler wrote:

Coco wrote:Absolutely heartbreaking.

It would be helpful at this point for the peaceful muslim community to publicly publicly PUBLICLY denounce these actions by the radical fringe. It would help more people understand that muslims arent the boogieman. The longer they sit quietly, the more people are going to lump them all together as evil.

They do, regularly - it just doesn't garner many headlines, because OR COURSE every right thinking human being condemns this sort of action.
Just from my facebook feed at the moment...

That is very good to see and learn. Not everybody uses Facebook, or Twitter, though so naturally would not see these posts. Regarding "any right thinking human being condems this sort of action." - Agree with this, but my point was that many people are still very suspicious of muslims in general... So naturally there are a lot of people unsure of just how "right thinking" muslims are since they never see these communites collectively united in solidarity condemning these horrendous acts on television (how most people are used to getting their news) or anything providing actual face time. Facebook and twitter are so impersonal and intangible.. Not to mention come off as lazy to many people.

morepork wrote:
Jesus Christ. Too much information....

Too bloody late.

Good to know we can trust the US to keep information about a live investigation
out of the papers.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40038630

Can you imagine their reaction if The Times published similar about an attack in the US

Vengeful Glutton wrote:

morepork wrote:VG....suspect is the operative term, surely. If you conduct interrogation under the assumption that a suspect "knows" something, then that logic works. However, the assumption can certainly be incorrect. What use torture then?

Like most things in life getting the info you need to achieve an objective, whether it be a winning in the gee gees, or a deft political maneuver, is based on probabilities. It's built into the fabric of the universe, mate.

For shur, there'll be some casualties, but the State's not bothered by that, is it?

The fact is that, if you've got intelligence on someone, and there's a good possibility that they have information on your mark, when all else fails to extract info from them, you're going to use EITs.

In fairness to western intelligence agencies, they're a bit more polite about it, and a bit more civilised. Mind you, the SAVAK learned some tricks from the CIA. Instead of raping yer man, ye rape his wife, and make sure its anal penetration - much more effective. Straight from the Divil's handbook.

What? VG, you have issues.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Anal penetration is more civilised. You heard it here first.

Coco wrote:

Which Tyler wrote:

Coco wrote:Absolutely heartbreaking.

It would be helpful at this point for the peaceful muslim community to publicly publicly PUBLICLY denounce these actions by the radical fringe. It would help more people understand that muslims arent the boogieman. The longer they sit quietly, the more people are going to lump them all together as evil.

They do, regularly - it just doesn't garner many headlines, because OR COURSE every right thinking human being condemns this sort of action.
Just from my facebook feed at the moment...

That is very good to see and learn. Not everybody uses Facebook, or Twitter, though so naturally would not see these posts. Regarding "any right thinking human being condems this sort of action." - Agree with this, but my point was that many people are still very suspicious of muslims in general... So naturally there are a lot of people unsure of just how "right thinking" muslims are since they never see these communites collectively united in solidarity condemning these horrendous acts on television (how most people are used to getting their news) or anything providing actual face time. Facebook and twitter are so impersonal and intangible.. Not to mention come off as lazy to many people.

Facebook has over a billion users. Use does not equate to informed sure, but it's pretty hard to cry foul with a potential audience of that magnitude.

morepork wrote:

Coco wrote:

Which Tyler wrote: They do, regularly - it just doesn't garner many headlines, because OR COURSE every right thinking human being condemns this sort of action.
Just from my facebook feed at the moment...

That is very good to see and learn. Not everybody uses Facebook, or Twitter, though so naturally would not see these posts. Regarding "any right thinking human being condems this sort of action." - Agree with this, but my point was that many people are still very suspicious of muslims in general... So naturally there are a lot of people unsure of just how "right thinking" muslims are since they never see these communites collectively united in solidarity condemning these horrendous acts on television (how most people are used to getting their news) or anything providing actual face time. Facebook and twitter are so impersonal and intangible.. Not to mention come off as lazy to many people.

Facebook has over a billion users. Use does not equate to informed sure, but it's pretty hard to cry foul with a potential audience of that magnitude.

Eh not crying foul, just making an observation, and conveying my opinion. Face time would be helpful, and frankly a billion users is impressive but there are 7.5 billion prople in the world . Obviously not all of them using Facebook, etc. I use facebook and havent seen anything come up on my feed unfortunately. Anything to get the word out would help, Porky. It's an important issue that deserves more positive coverage.

Coco wrote:That is very good to see and learn. Not everybody uses Facebook, or Twitter, though so naturally would not see these posts. Regarding "any right thinking human being condems this sort of action." - Agree with this, but my point was that many people are still very suspicious of muslims in general... So naturally there are a lot of people unsure of just how "right thinking" muslims are since they never see these communites collectively united in solidarity condemning these horrendous acts on television (how most people are used to getting their news) or anything providing actual face time. Facebook and twitter are so impersonal and intangible.. Not to mention come off as lazy to many people.

I only signed up for Facebook about 2 weeks ago; and those were already on my feed, and so far I've only got close family on my "friends" list.
Before 2 weeks ago though, I was well aware that this sort of statement has been released after each and every attack; they just don't get much media coverage (just enough that I was aware of them). Please note, I pulled the above off my facebook feed, not because I use facebook for news, but because it was really, really easy; also note that one of them had Channel 4 news as the original source, which reaches.... everyone in the UK.
Bear in mind, those 4 facebook posts above had reached 872,000 people between them as of my posting; and there's plenty more than that, and probably more "popular" ones too; let alone any form of media that isn't facebook (such as Channel 4 News).

The likes of the Muslim Council of Britain make press releases, and hold press conferences, post up on facebook (and I'm sure twitter and instgram etc) - I'm not sure what more you want of them here; sending people out door-to-door to every house in the country? Preach on street corners like crazy people? Maybe they should buy advertising space on TV to say "we condemn the act of this idiot"

Now, where are all the messages from christian leaders condemning every high-school shooting in the States? Do all white people have to apologise for the acts of Anders Brejvik and the likes? Or do we just not condemn a billion people based on the actions of 1 idiot who's superficially like them?
If this stuff doesn't appear on your facebook stream, then is it more likely that neither you, nor anyone you follow on facebook particularly cares about this aspect, and doesn't share/like/comment on these things? or that they don't exist?

belgarion wrote:Good to know we can trust the US to keep information about a live investigation
out of the papers.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40038630

Can you imagine their reaction if The Times published similar about an attack in the US

Ahem

Which Tyler wrote:http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 52511.html

Manchester Attack: Home Secretary Amber Rudd condemns US for leaks of shared British intelligence

Confidential details appeared in the US media apparently leaked by US intelligence

Dear the USA - if you want your allies to continue sharing confidential information with you - please still stop leaking to the press / foreign diplomats.
Sincerely
the UK / Israel (/Jordan?)

Which Tyler wrote:

belgarion wrote:Good to know we can trust the US to keep information about a live investigation
out of the papers.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40038630

Can you imagine their reaction if The Times published similar about an attack in the US

Ahem

Which Tyler wrote:http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 52511.html

Manchester Attack: Home Secretary Amber Rudd condemns US for leaks of shared British intelligence

Confidential details appeared in the US media apparently leaked by US intelligence

Dear the USA - if you want your allies to continue sharing confidential information with you - please still stop leaking to the press / foreign diplomats.
Sincerely
the UK / Israel (/Jordan?)

The photos in the NYT were leaked after Rudd had asked the US not to do it again & this is probably worse than leaking
the name as it is actual crime scene photgraphs

belgarion wrote:

Which Tyler wrote:

belgarion wrote:Good to know we can trust the US to keep information about a live investigation
out of the papers.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40038630

Can you imagine their reaction if The Times published similar about an attack in the US

Ahem

Which Tyler wrote:http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 52511.html



Dear the USA - if you want your allies to continue sharing confidential information with you - please still stop leaking to the press / foreign diplomats.
Sincerely
the UK / Israel (/Jordan?)

The photos in the NYT were leaked after Rudd had asked the US not to do it again & this is probably worse than leaking
the name as it is actual crime scene photgraphs

Edit: Manchester Police to stop sharing info about the attack with the US. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40040210

May will raise concerns about the leaks with Trump at a Nato meeting later today.

I wonder if they'll be holding hands for this?