RugbyRebels

I just wish Gatland would pick players in their best positions, and make the hard choices when necessary

PoolerSaint wrote:What an absolutely horrible game of rugby.
The positives for us-
Ellis Jenkins, oozes class.
Cory Hill, Mr consistent these days
Tomos Williams, apart from that one ruck in the 2nd half where he was caught with his pants down was excellent.
We won.

That's about it, our game management was awful.
Moriarty was our only carrier & we telegraphed virtually every pass to him.
Obviously the team will be stronger next week with the Scarlets players being involved more. But we may get a tuning from Argentina in both test matches.

This idiotic Rhodri Jones experiment has to stop - he can't hold up the scrum from tighthead at club level never mind test match rugby. Gatland is ruining the poor guy, who has the potential to be a very good loosehead.

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Thankfully they have called up Francis.

Also Josh Adams, I'd like to see him given a little more opportunity at this level.

Agree it was a woeful match.

Front row struggled as expected I guess - I do like Dee and Elias though as back up hookers
Tight Head we really need Lewis or Brown to step up their scrummaging... Rhod Jones has to be treated as a LH - if we pick 5 props for the WC I get picking him over say Nicky Smith, but outside of that...please lets not play him at 3 anymore!
Ditto Seb Davies and the back row - no more please. England are ruining Itoje playing him at 6, lets not do that with this kid
Jenkins is a class act and Moriaty was hit and miss

It was a hard game to judge the backs on so I wont comment too much other than Tomos Williams is up there as a contender for 9 given Webbs unavailability.

Glad to see Josh Adams called in, nothing against Steff who has been great at Regional level, but hes struggled a bit at Test level, Adam is that littl ebit bigger (not that size is evreything) so hoping to see him get a couple of games

For me for Argentina..Id now go

Anscombe, Adams, Williams, Parkes, North, Patchell, G Davies
Evans, Elias, Lee, Hill, B Davies , Turnbull, Jenkins, Moriaty

B: Dee, Jones, Lewis, S Davies, J Davies, T WIlliams, Watkins, Amos

MrK wrote:Agree it was a woeful match.

Front row struggled as expected I guess - I do like Dee and Elias though as back up hookers
Tight Head we really need Lewis or Brown to step up their scrummaging... Rhod Jones has to be treated as a LH - if we pick 5 props for the WC I get picking him over say Nicky Smith, but outside of that...please lets not play him at 3 anymore!
Ditto Seb Davies and the back row - no more please. England are ruining Itoje playing him at 6, lets not do that with this kid
Jenkins is a class act and Moriaty was hit and miss

It was a hard game to judge the backs on so I wont comment too much other than Tomos Williams is up there as a contender for 9 given Webbs unavailability.

Glad to see Josh Adams called in, nothing against Steff who has been great at Regional level, but hes struggled a bit at Test level, Adam is that littl ebit bigger (not that size is evreything) so hoping to see him get a couple of games

For me for Argentina..Id now go

Anscombe, Adams, Williams, Parkes, North, Patchell, G Davies
Evans, Elias, Lee, Hill, B Davies , Turnbull, Jenkins, Moriaty

B: Dee, Jones, Lewis, S Davies, J Davies, T WIlliams, Watkins, Amos

I'd agree with that other than perhaps Dee to start, Elias's lineout work can be a little flakey at times, Tomas Francis is in the setup now so I'd have him on the bench instead of Lewis and also Amos at 15 with Anscombe on the bench for impact.

Looking at the form of the Jaguares we will have our work cut out winning either or the tests.

Team for the first Argentinian game:

Hallam Amos; Josh Adams, Scott Williams, Hadleigh Parkes, George North; Rhys Patchell, Gareth Davies; Wyn Jones, Elliot Dee, Dillon Lewis, Adam Beard, Cory Hill (capt), Seb Davies, James Davies, Ross Moriarty.

Replacements: Ryan Elias, Rob Evans, Tomas Francis, Josh Turnbull, Aaron Wainwright, Aled Davies, Gareth Anscombe, Owen Watkin.

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We are choosing to put ourselves under pressure by not starting our most powerful XV.

This really is a development tour, I am probably in a minority to think this is a good move in the long run.

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Graigwen wrote:We are choosing to put ourselves under pressure by not starting our most powerful XV.

This really is a development tour, I am probably in a minority to think this is a good move in the long run.

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It's going to be tough against Argentina with this understrength pack. The backs look good but will they get enough ball?

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Graigwen wrote:We are choosing to put ourselves under pressure by not starting our most powerful XV.

This really is a development tour, I am probably in a minority to think this is a good move in the long run.

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It's going to be tough against Argentina with this understrength pack. The backs look good but will they get enough ball?

Aye, the front row being the main area for concern, Wyn Jones at loosehead is actually a better scrummager than Rob Evans but Lewis fills me with dread.

I think Lewis will eventually be a good international standard prop....but he is not one yet.

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Graigwen wrote:We are choosing to put ourselves under pressure by not starting our most powerful XV.

This really is a development tour, I am probably in a minority to think this is a good move in the long run.

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I like the idea of winning games, but as soon as we send a squad with a significant number of first choice players missing, and player rest is important, then it’s a development tour by default. I like the idea of giving back up players a run, it’s the time to do it and if a couple out their hands up then all to the good.

From the BBC :

"Prop Wyn Jones has been ruled out of Wales' Test series in Argentina due to a calf injury.

The 26-year-old was hurt in training on Wednesday, ending his chance of winning a 10th cap against the Pumas in San Juan on Saturday.

Scarlets team-mate Rob Evans will now start after initially being named among the replacements, with Ospreys' Nicky Smith promoted to the bench."

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Shame for Wyn Jones. He’s looked pretty good off the bench and deserved a proper start.

Wales well in control here. They don't have to do too much against a pretty staid RG attack, but they aren't dropping ball, and defence is very well structured. Are also making opportunities count.

Positives

Front Row -Dee and especially Lewis really stepped up and show that they are worth persevering with
Second Row - Beard stepped up, also showe potential as a ball carrier
Back Row - Davies - 3 or 4 turnovers, scored, tackled a lot
Half backs - Patchell was positive
Centres - Hadleigh Parkes - everywhere
Back 3 - I thought Adams looked sharp, shame he didnt get a bit more ball, lovely offload by Amos for Cubbys try, greatr line by North for his try

Negatives

Front Row - not a lot really
Second Row - developing some back up slowly - still think Balls ball carrying is missed
Back Row -The Seb Davies at 6 thing wasnt as bad as last week, but its really not for me, Moriaty still needs more game time
Half Backs - G Davies does so many things well but he is prone to a little white line fever, and occasionally waiting a bit too long to get the ball out
Centres - didnt really see much of Williams in an attacking sense today
Back 3 - I still wish North would look for more ball, Im not convinced about AMos under the high ball.

All in all, more pluses than minuses

next week will probably be all change

If it goes on form Id like to see Evans, Dee, Lewis, Hill, Beard, Jenkins, Davies, Moriaty, Williams, Patchell, North, Parkes, Williams, Adams, Amos

But Im guessing we'll have some horrible changes

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Only watched bits of the match, but from what I saw I thought Wales were extremely well drilled. Ruck defence was set up quickly and gave Argentina very little chance of winning a turnover. Defence was strong and Wales managed to win turnovers at crucial times.

Not sure if that was true for all the match, but the report I just read on the Beeb suggests that Wales were extremely good value for the win.

Think the RFU should've done more to try tempting Edwards to an England role. Our defence is a shambles...amongst other issues.

Still, I digress, great win for Wales.

At open side we now have:
Warburton
Tipuric
Davies
Navidi
Ellis Jenkins

Thats a tough choice looming.

Buggaluggs wrote:At open side we now have:
Warburton
Tipuric
Davies
Navidi
Ellis Jenkins

Thats a tough choice looming.

We'll take one off your hands?

Good win that, particularly as we were written off. Lots of positives but still some questions.

Amos can unlock defences very intelligently, but is he our best full back? Could be play on the wing with Halfpenny at FB? With North in the equation, is that our best back 3?

Scott Williams seems to be keeping a shirt warm for Foxy.

Scrum half. Hmmmm

Fly half. Debate still open, but Patchell made a big statement yesterday.

Great to see a young TH performing.

We need more depth at lock, Beard moving in the right direction.

Locks at blindside don’t work. I’d rather play two sevens.

What the hell is our best back row? We have an embarrassment of riches at open side, but the blindside also has competition when you consider Warburton vs Shingler is a realistic competition. Surely too Faletau is one of the first names on the team sheet, so where does Moriarty fit in?

Still some issues to resolve tactically as well. Trying to win games with limited possession is an issue. Our defence is generally good but the game against Ireland haunts me.

Re Amos

I actually think that his best position could be outside centre - Im not convinced with him under the high ball at FB - and I think we have faster, better wingers (I really think Josh Adams is worth persevering with)

Re Back Row

If we are going to only take 5 back rowers thats one hell of a problem... or do we take 3 second rows and a Shingler/Turnbull for cover?
Is Warburton really "nailed on" as suggested? Im not convinced and like wise with Tipuric.

Could we see a situation where Faletau, Moriaty, Navdi, Jenkins, Shingler are the chosen 5 for example?

Re Half back
Id like to see Tomos Williams and Patchell start the next game

Really impressive by Wales. Ambitious, aggressive attack from the largely Scarlet midfield (and 7), backed up by tireless, almost watertight defence. A little sloppy in places and very poor when competing for high ball (not sure why we bother to kick it really), but way better than an even more sloppy Argentina.

IMO this should be the starting point for how Wales plays going forward.

For next time, I would stick with Patchell, James Davies, Moriarty, Parkes, the back three, maybe start Tomos ( or bench at least) and Watkins instead of Scott.

Going forward, we need to get Liam Williams back at 15 if we ever want to get any of that high ball. But Amos should be an option on the wing.

I must admit that was the most surprising Welsh performance I've seen for quite some time, in a good way of course.
Some of the youngsters have really staked a claim for a starting berth.
Beard was very good, bristling with physicality at the breakdown.
Dillon Lewis superb especially in the loose.
Cory Hill continues to grow as a player as he gains experience.
Elliot Dee's transition to test hooker has been seamless.
As was mentioned on commentary I think Argentina really weren't ready for such a contest at the breakdown.
In the 2nd test we should unleash Ellis Jenkins & James Davies in tandem - they could cause havoc.

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Re the openside question, I like out and out sevens, so Tipuric is my first choice, followed by Davies. Warbs and Navidi are better at six at test level IMO, though Shingler is also serious competition for that slot. For me, Ellis Jenkins is a little way off international level at this point.

Choices...choices.

Som realistically where are we 15 months out from the World Cup in terms of viable contenders?

props: Rob Evans, Wyn Jones, Nicky Smith, Francis, Lee, Lewis, Rhodri Jones, Brown
hookers: Owens, Dee, Elias, Dacey, Baldwin
Locks: AWJ, Ball, Hill, Beard, Brad Davies, Seb Davies
BR: Warburton, Tipuric, Faletau, Shingler, Navidi, Jenkins, Davies, Young,Wainright, Moriarty
SH: G Davies, Aled Davies, T Williams
FH: Patchell, Anscombe, Biggar, Evans, Sam Davies
Centres: Parkes, S Williams, O Watkin, Jon Davies, O Williams
Wings: North, Adams, Steff Evans
FB: Liam, Halfpenny, Amos

I'm sure I'm missing some, but this feels a long way from where we were a year ago. Still not there at TH, and still need a bit more at SH in particular, but we are starting to have welcome headaches...

Well I take my hat off to Dillon Lewis, what a great performance, he added a lot around the park for a tighthead too, I can't really fault the performance from Wales too much, other than some aberrant kicking from Gareth Davies we performed excellently.

I thought James Davies was the MOM and Moriarty was everywhere.

I’m wondering if our backlone looks something like:

9. Davies
10. Patchell
11. North
12. Parkes
13. JD
14. Amos
15. Halfpenny

Tomos Williams, Anscombe and Scott Williams on the bench.

Amos has a habit of creating opportunities against good defensive teams and should be involved. We could use him off the bench as a utility back 5 player with Adams on the wing. I’m preferring Halfpenny over Liam as he has brought his attacking game on whilst retaining defensive qualities not to mention the goal kicking.