RugbyRebels

Front row. No quibbles here. Our 6 best available props are selected. Tough on Heyes to miss out but we cant carry 4 tight heads.
Lock. Again this is fair enough. Hill and Ribbans should get an opportunity. Moon edged out is a touch unlucky.
Back row. Sam Simmonds can feel hard done by. Likewise Dombrandt who has been dropped in the final shakeup. Ludlam a touch fortunate but he has shown up well for England and that must have counted. Willis very properly included along with Hill.
SH. Robson in is a good thing and well deserved. Spencer had an equally strong claim but Jones clearly doesnt rate him. Mitchell losing out is frustrating, particularly when Heinz and Youngs are the other SH's.
FH. A punt on Umaga. I would have gone with Joe Simmonds and probably Smith but no problem with promoting a promising young player.
Centre. No inside centre and 4 who normally play 13. No balance here so its going to have to be a case of seeing someone come in one. Pleased to see Lawrence retained.
Back 3. Coka is a bit fortunate but this is a longer term investment pick. Surprised Furbank is retained, pleased to see Malins and Thorley.
Overall one or two surprises, plenty of close calls, the odd head scratcher and some very good punts on uncapped players.

Agreed - I thought Ford’s Achilles injury might open the door for Simmonds. As you say, what more can the guy do?

twitchy wrote:Ben Spencer missing out is crazy. You have to feel for him.

Eh. Only in the context that every scrum-half with even a modicum of form since the restart should be irked at being behind Willi "Is he even still playing for Gloucester?" Heinz. I don't rate Spencer that highly myself and would far rather be pouring development into 23 year old Mitchell, Randall and Maunder than 28 year old Robson and Spencer (especially since the third scrum-half is blatantly going to have about 3 minutes of gametime this autumn).

Scrumhead wrote:Also disappointed to see Dombrandt left out, but not hugely surprised by that.

Sad to hear Wilson is injured again, but on the plus side, it does present opportunities for Willis (thank god he actually did get called-up), Hill and Earl. I’d like to see Dunn as George’s back up a) because I think he’s a very good all round hooker and b) because Singleton has been poor since the RWC and doesn’t really deserve to be there IMO.

Pleased to see Jonny Hill get a well-earned call-up and also pleased to see Lawrence, Obano and Malins retained.

Overall, swap out Heinz for Mitchell and Umaga for Simmonds and I’d be happy.

Hadn't noticed Dombrandt going, but I'm not hugely surprised. He's got a lot to learn and a lot to improve in his movement around the pitch and the fact that he can hit some belting lines in attack doesn't make him a fully formed international player.

Agreed on Dunn. I just want him to get a damned cap, cause he's come so close so many times and he has *earned* it. What's the count so far - been in the squad before an overturned citing decision brought back Hartley, been in the Argentina squad before injury, been in the squad when LCD was off with family problems only for LCD to sweep back in on the Friday and take his spot, and finally made it to the matchday squad before sitting on the bench for 80 minutes and never getting brought on.

I think your bolded summary is where I am too. I'm mostly just glad that JWillis hasn't fallen prey to Eddie's usual "Well, now I am not going to do it," reaction to the press clamouring for a selection.

Puja

Yep. That was my biggest relief. Glad he saw sense on Jonny Hill too.

Having no recognised 12 is a risk, but no-one has really put their hand up to take that shirt.

Redpath looks the best bet to make the step up, but it’s still early days.

If Lawrence gets the chance and it works, it could be an excellent discovery. I’d rather see Lawrence take on an unfamiliar role than revert to Piers Francis (who is an OK player but shouldn’t be starting for England).

Scrumhead wrote:If Lawrence gets the chance and it works, it could be an excellent discovery. I’d rather see Lawrence take on an unfamiliar role than revert to Piers Francis (who is an OK player but shouldn’t be starting for England).

Agreed. It's a bold choice, which we don't always get with Eddie, but I think definitely worth the gamble.

Puja

Remember when Jones always used to say that there is no point having three 9s in camp as that means one stands around doing nothing most of the time....

Mellsblue wrote:Remember when Jones always used to say that there is no point having three 9s in camp as that means one stands around going nothing most of the time....,,

Ah, but if you opine that Youngs + Heinz just about adds up to one . . .

Mellsblue wrote:Remember when Jones always used to say that there is no point having three 9s in camp as that means one stands around doing nothing most of the time....

I'm sorry, are you seriously suggesting that Dan Robson might be entirely wasting his time by turning up for this England camp? I am shocked, shocked I tell you.

Puja

Hard to argue with that squad really.

Heinz is an odd call in the overall scheme of things, and not seeing Simmonds is disappointing if not altogether surprising. I'd have liked to have seen Redpath, but then who do you drop.

Otherwise good.

Just realised Thorley dropped out as well. Shame for him as he’s had a great season and as good as Cokanasiga can be, we can’t even remotely suggest he’s there on form.

Puja wrote:Mako Vunipola, Ellis Genge, Beno Obano
Jamie George, Tom Dunn, Jack Singleton
Kyle Sinckler, Will Stuart, Harry Williams

No complaints - they're simply the best available in their positions

Puja wrote:Maro Itoje, Jonny Hill, Charlie Ewels, Joe Launchbury, David Ribbans

No complaints - 2 left standing from the old guard of 4 + the next cab off the rank in Ewels (I accept that there must be something there I'm not seeing), the prem lock with best form in Hill; and then it was 1 of 3 from Saints (even if I think Isiekwe would be a better investment)

Puja wrote:Jack Willis, Ted Hill, Lewis Ludlam, Tom Curry, Sam Underhill
Billy Vunipola, Ben Earl

No complaints - the 3 in possession, the 1 backrower who's form simply demands inclusion, and then 3 of the remaining 8 players all fighting for those slots. 12 into 7 means that there will always be 5 who can feel harshly done by.

Puja wrote:Ben Youngs, Willi Heinz, Dan Robson
Owen Farrell, Jacob Umaga

At least there's 3 SHs, even if 2 of them don't deserve to be there.
3rd choice FH was always going to be a judgement call, whilst I'd have had JSimonds here, you can't argue that Umaga & Smith aren't the ones who've been groomed ahead of him.

Puja wrote:Henry Slade, Ollie Lawrence
Jonathan Joseph, Joe Marchant,

No complaints TBH - I don't have a problem with Slade / Lawrence at IC; the way they both play the game suits the position - in Slade's case, moreso than OC does.
Would have been nice to see James / Redpath involved, but Cam at least should be no more than an apprentice just yet. Devoto looks like being one of those players who simply never fulfills his potential - losing his automatic starter spot at club level leaves us with no grounds to moan.

Puja wrote:Jonny May, Anthony Watson, Ollie Thorley, Joe Cokanasiga
Max Malins George Furbank

Our 2 best wingers, alongside 1 of the 2 wingers in best form, and our best prospect - can't really complain at that.
Malins absolutely deserves to be there, Furbank absolutely doesn't


All in all, there are only 2 players who shouldn't be there (IMO). There's only room for 1 of Youngs / Heinz; and Furbank; These selections feel like Stubborn Eddie. Spencer / Mitchell should have the SH spot, and McConnochie should probably have the FB spot (more likely wing, with Watson shifting back)
We can all moan about who SHOULD have been at backrow, or FH, but realistically, there were always going to be complaints, and these are differences of opinion, rather than mistakes.

Umaga may not use it much forwasps but he has a very good kicking game. Could be Eddie likes that and we'll see him play a little differently for England. Huge boot too.

Scrumhead wrote:Just realised Thorley dropped out as well. Shame for him as he’s had a great season and as good as Cokanasiga can be, we can’t even remotely suggest he’s there on form.

No, he's still there!

Puja

It's quite amusing that nobody, for once, has mentioned Farrell. At least (a huge Jones shock aside) he won't be blocking creativity by wearing the 12 shirt. Having to play someone else at IC is a damned good thing. Of course, that will all change if Umaga gets game time.

Given that we need to win with a BP and rack up a high points margin, I’d like to see us go with:

1. M. Vunipola
2. J. George
3. K. Sinckler
4. M. Itoje
5. C. Ewels*
6. J. Willis
7. T. Curry
8. B. Vunipola
9. B. Youngs
10. O. Farrell
11. J. May
12. O. Lawrence
13. H. Slade
14. A. Watson
15. M. Malins

16. T. Dunn 17. E. Genge 18. W. Stuart 19. J. Hill 20. B. Earl 21. D. Robson 22. J. Marchant 23. J. Cokanasiga

*I know picking Ewels to start might look an odd choice, but given Hill and Launchbury will only be joining the camp with a few days to prepare, I’d just want to set the most solid platform.

Seeing how badly Italy protected the ball against Ireland, I’d pick Willis for maximum disruption. Underhill’s good over the ball, but Willis is unreal.

Our bench could be massive. Italy often fall off in the last quarter and that’s exactly what happened last weekend against the Irish. Genge, Stuart, Earl, Robson and Cokanasiga in particular would all add plenty of impact.

I wonder what the chances are of Eddie starting with Robson and Umaga? Worth a flutter?

From this squad, I'd be happy with Scrumhead's 23 but I'd not be surprised if Jones retained Underhill with Willis on the bench. I just hope that Malins does start.

francoisfou wrote:I wonder what the chances are of Eddie starting with Robson and Umaga? Worth a flutter?

1000-1 against?

francoisfou wrote:I wonder what the chances are of Eddie starting with Robson and Umaga? Worth a flutter?

Save your money.
It will be Youngs and Farrell at HB.
I dont expect to see Willis involved.

It won’t happen, but I wouldn’t be totally against it given we need tries!

Surely Umaga over Simmonds is because Jones will always select someone from outside the "traditional England player from the South" and that someone with such clear links to the SH is a shoe in...

He could only be better placed if he'd grown up playing league.

There'll be plenty of changes over the autumn but that article someone shared made the point that continuity is key. Sounds like it's harsh on Simmonds but parachuting someone in cold is a recipe for disaster. England need a big win next week after all.

Scrumhead wrote:It won’t happen, but I wouldn’t be totally against it given we need tries!

Are we allowed to dream of Youngs and Farrell both getting injured in the first 5 minutes? The sad part is that we might then get Heinz off the bench.

Mr Mwenda wrote:There'll be plenty of changes over the autumn but that article someone shared made the point that continuity is key. Sounds like it's harsh on Simmonds but parachuting someone in cold is a recipe for disaster. England need a big win next week after all.

Jones does, arguably, or it will be three successive competitions that he has failed to win.

Scrumhead wrote:It won’t happen, but I wouldn’t be totally against it given we need tries!

Neither would I! Both players are in the squad so I wouldn’t entirely dismiss the chances of being picked for maybe one match. Still, Eddie’s mind moves in mysterious ways!