Ban Petrol and Diesel Cars or I will not face the apocalypse in a Prius

[onlynameleft]

The problem with Electric cars is the recharging infrastructure. Electric cars make most sense in highly populated urban areas where mileages per day are low. But most of the people who live in these areas don't have a drive, garage or parking space to charge their cars overnight. Where I live in West London there are probably 30 cars parked on the street for every 1 car parked on a drive.

Until there are under roadsurface chargers that will charge cars as they drive along, electric will be let down by charging infrastructure

SandyDragon's times for Tesla superchargers is incorrect - much quicker than 4.5 hours

See the link http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/20 ... harge.html

That is to 80% charge a Tesla Model S in the USA, the fastest currently available charger for the UK Tesla 3 (a different model and the one we are talking about) takes 4.5 hours to fully charge. They do quick charge up to 80% but you obviously don't get the full range with that.

[onlynameleft]

"and will absolutely not stop me talking about Lithium production or displacing emissions to power stations instead of tree-lined roads"

Absolutely. And battery disposal.

[Len]

Ah, the automotive equivalent of a cockroach! Must dig out that barry crump ad from the you tube

Going to go look at one on Thursday.

Did you get it? Could you nail a Hokitika New World check out girl on the tray without being slashed by rust in the most delicate of places?

Na passed up on it. Cambelt hadn't been done in a while. The search continues.

Time to show these poms how its done.

[Sandydragon]

The problem with Electric cars is the recharging infrastructure. Electric cars make most sense in highly populated urban areas where mileages per day are low. But most of the people who live in these areas don't have a drive, garage or parking space to charge their cars overnight. Where I live in West London there are probably 30 cars parked on the street for every 1 car parked on a drive.

Until there are under roadsurface chargers that will charge cars as they drive along, electric will be let down by charging infrastructure

SandyDragon's times for Tesla superchargers is incorrect - much quicker than 4.5 hours

See the link http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/20 ... harge.html

That's the tesla marketing website for you! Good point though ref the ability to charge a car in cities.

[Zhivago]

The problem with Electric cars is the recharging infrastructure. Electric cars make most sense in highly populated urban areas where mileages per day are low. But most of the people who live in these areas don't have a drive, garage or parking space to charge their cars overnight. Where I live in West London there are probably 30 cars parked on the street for every 1 car parked on a drive.

Until there are under roadsurface chargers that will charge cars as they drive along, electric will be let down by charging infrastructure

SandyDragon's times for Tesla superchargers is incorrect - much quicker than 4.5 hours

See the link http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/20 ... harge.html

That's the tesla marketing website for you! Good point though ref the ability to charge a car in cities.

Depends on the city. There are charging points all over Amsterdam.

[onlynameleft]

The problem with Electric cars is the recharging infrastructure. Electric cars make most sense in highly populated urban areas where mileages per day are low. But most of the people who live in these areas don't have a drive, garage or parking space to charge their cars overnight. Where I live in West London there are probably 30 cars parked on the street for every 1 car parked on a drive.

Until there are under roadsurface chargers that will charge cars as they drive along, electric will be let down by charging infrastructure

SandyDragon's times for Tesla superchargers is incorrect - much quicker than 4.5 hours

See the link http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/20 ... harge.html

Data in the link refers to a Tesla S charging to 80% in the US not a Tesla 3 charging to full on the fastest chargers currently available in the UK. Different car different charge volume different country. 4.5 hours is correct.

[Sandydragon]

The problem with Electric cars is the recharging infrastructure. Electric cars make most sense in highly populated urban areas where mileages per day are low. But most of the people who live in these areas don't have a drive, garage or parking space to charge their cars overnight. Where I live in West London there are probably 30 cars parked on the street for every 1 car parked on a drive.

Until there are under roadsurface chargers that will charge cars as they drive along, electric will be let down by charging infrastructure

SandyDragon's times for Tesla superchargers is incorrect - much quicker than 4.5 hours

See the link http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/20 ... harge.html

That's the tesla marketing website for you! Good point though ref the ability to charge a car in cities.

Depends on the city. There are charging points all over Amsterdam.

Enough for one per house hold? It's a fair point that most people would want to stick their car in charge at the end of the day. But how to achieve that if you can't park at your house? Some kind of charger that ties in with car parking meters is perhaps a solution.

[Stones of granite]

That's the tesla marketing website for you! Good point though ref the ability to charge a car in cities.

Depends on the city. There are charging points all over Amsterdam.

Enough for one per house hold? It's a fair point that most people would want to stick their car in charge at the end of the day. But how to achieve that if you can't park at your house? Some kind of charger that ties in with car parking meters is perhaps a solution.

If I remember correctly Amsterdam is very densely populated with a large number of apartment blocks, some with dedicated parking. These are the places where the charging points need to be.

[Zhivago]

That's the tesla marketing website for you! Good point though ref the ability to charge a car in cities.

Depends on the city. There are charging points all over Amsterdam.

Enough for one per house hold? It's a fair point that most people would want to stick their car in charge at the end of the day. But how to achieve that if you can't park at your house? Some kind of charger that ties in with car parking meters is perhaps a solution.

Of course not, because not everyone has an electric car yet. But there are plenty, they look like this:

[Sandydragon]

Depends on the city. There are charging points all over Amsterdam.

Enough for one per house hold? It's a fair point that most people would want to stick their car in charge at the end of the day. But how to achieve that if you can't park at your house? Some kind of charger that ties in with car parking meters is perhaps a solution.

If I remember correctly Amsterdam is very densely populated with a large number of apartment blocks, some with dedicated parking. These are the places where the charging points need to be.

Exactly the point Im making, you would need to install charging stations practically everywhere you could park a car and have some kind of metering system for the cost. Not impossible by any shot, but a huge investment, particularly if hydrogen is the answer after all.

[Stones of granite]

Enough for one per house hold? It's a fair point that most people would want to stick their car in charge at the end of the day. But how to achieve that if you can't park at your house? Some kind of charger that ties in with car parking meters is perhaps a solution.

If I remember correctly Amsterdam is very densely populated with a large number of apartment blocks, some with dedicated parking. These are the places where the charging points need to be.

Exactly the point Im making, you would need to install charging stations practically everywhere you could park a car and have some kind of metering system for the cost. Not impossible by any shot, but a huge investment, particularly if hydrogen is the answer after all.

Agreed. Let's say a Dutch apartment block has 200 flats. Following a ban on hydrocarbon powered vehicles, each allocated parking space needs a charging point - 90KW is not required, as it doesn't need to be fast charging, say 25KW each - that are all potentially working simultaneously overnight. That's 5MW of additional supply per apartment block.
Conventional wisdom has it that each individual household requires 1KW of power, therefore it is not unreasonable to conclude that a 200 home apartment block will have it's supply dimensioned to supply up to 1MW (allowing for a big tolerance). This means that not only would the charging infrastructure have to be put in place, but potentially the entire supply network re-engineered.

[Sandydragon]

If I remember correctly Amsterdam is very densely populated with a large number of apartment blocks, some with dedicated parking. These are the places where the charging points need to be.

Exactly the point Im making, you would need to install charging stations practically everywhere you could park a car and have some kind of metering system for the cost. Not impossible by any shot, but a huge investment, particularly if hydrogen is the answer after all.

Agreed. Let's say a Dutch apartment block has 200 flats. Following a ban on hydrocarbon powered vehicles, each allocated parking space needs a charging point - 90KW is not required, as it doesn't need to be fast charging, say 25KW each - that are all potentially working simultaneously overnight. That's 5MW of additional supply per apartment block.
Conventional wisdom has it that each individual household requires 1KW of power, therefore it is not unreasonable to conclude that a 200 home apartment block will have it's supply dimensioned to supply up to 1MW (allowing for a big tolerance). This means that not only would the charging infrastructure have to be put in place, but potentially the entire supply network re-engineered.

Which brings us back to the key concern many have with electric cars, is there the capacity within the system to generate that much? And how is the power being generated, with what pollution side effects? At the moment, it all seems to be a logistical nightmare which could be overtaken by events as another solution comes along.

[Zhivago]

Your concerns are so British. They invest strongly here in infrastructure, that will not be a problem.

[morepork]

Are making batteries and parts for these lego toys deemed viable on condition of slave labour and lax environmental regulation? Also what about lifespan of the vehicles. Are they biffed after 5 years because they are worthless?

[Stones of granite]

Are making batteries and parts for these lego toys deemed viable on condition of slave labour and lax environmental regulation? Also what about lifespan of the vehicles. Are they biffed after 5 years because they are worthless?

The batteries for Teslas will be manufactured in Nevada. The mining of Lithium is a bit of an environmental disaster, but it's nothing compared to disposing of defective or exhausted batteries. Landfill, I expect.
The batteries will last 5 - 8 years depending on usage, and can technically be replaced. The economics of replacing them could be interesting though.

[Stones of granite]

Your concerns are so British. They invest strongly here in infrastructure, that will not be a problem.

Oh? Have they already started building the power stations and redesigning the distribution grid?

[Sandydragon]

Your concerns are so British. They invest strongly here in infrastructure, that will not be a problem.

Oh? Have they already started building the power stations and redesigning the distribution grid?

We've been talking about generating additional capacity for over a decade and done very little, which would suggest that it is more than just a minor issue to fix.

[Dacre]

The problem with Electric cars is the recharging infrastructure. Electric cars make most sense in highly populated urban areas where mileages per day are low. But most of the people who live in these areas don't have a drive, garage or parking space to charge their cars overnight. Where I live in West London there are probably 30 cars parked on the street for every 1 car parked on a drive.

Until there are under roadsurface chargers that will charge cars as they drive along, electric will be let down by charging infrastructure

SandyDragon's times for Tesla superchargers is incorrect - much quicker than 4.5 hours

See the link http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/20 ... harge.html

That is to 80% charge a Tesla Model S in the USA, the fastest currently available charger for the UK Tesla 3 (a different model and the one we are talking about) takes 4.5 hours to fully charge. They do quick charge up to 80% but you obviously don't get the full range with that.

Do you have a link to the 4.5 hours to charge for the Tesla 3. That seems an awfully long time to recharge a new model on a Supercharger

[onlynameleft]

The problem with Electric cars is the recharging infrastructure. Electric cars make most sense in highly populated urban areas where mileages per day are low. But most of the people who live in these areas don't have a drive, garage or parking space to charge their cars overnight. Where I live in West London there are probably 30 cars parked on the street for every 1 car parked on a drive.

Until there are under roadsurface chargers that will charge cars as they drive along, electric will be let down by charging infrastructure

SandyDragon's times for Tesla superchargers is incorrect - much quicker than 4.5 hours

See the link http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/20 ... harge.html

That is to 80% charge a Tesla Model S in the USA, the fastest currently available charger for the UK Tesla 3 (a different model and the one we are talking about) takes 4.5 hours to fully charge. They do quick charge up to 80% but you obviously don't get the full range with that.

Do you have a link to the 4.5 hours to charge for the Tesla 3. That seems an awfully long time to recharge a new model on a Supercharger

Will try and find it again, when compared to 37 hours from a standard socket it doesn't seem that long. It is the last 20% that takes half the time or thereabouts I believe.

[Len]

Are making batteries and parts for these lego toys deemed viable on condition of slave labour and lax environmental regulation? Also what about lifespan of the vehicles. Are they biffed after 5 years because they are worthless?

Ever seen a lithium mine? Hippys are up in arms about fracking but you check out one of those bad boys.

[Zhivago]

Not impossible by any shot, but a huge investment, particularly if hydrogen is the answer after all.

Which brings us back to the key concern many have with electric cars, is there the capacity within the system to generate that much? And how is the power being generated, with what pollution side effects?

Power could be generated by renewable energy, or potentially in the longer term even fusion could be possible. Hydrogen on the other hand is primarily produced by steam reformation of hydrocarbon fuels with CO₂ as a product.

Point is surely that we should be moving away from using hydrocarbons?? No?

[Sandydragon]

Not impossible by any shot, but a huge investment, particularly if hydrogen is the answer after all.

Which brings us back to the key concern many have with electric cars, is there the capacity within the system to generate that much? And how is the power being generated, with what pollution side effects?

Power could be generated by renewable energy, or potentially in the longer term even fusion could be possible. Hydrogen on the other hand is primarily produced by steam reformation of hydrocarbon fuels with CO₂ as a product.

Point is surely that we should be moving away from using hydrocarbons?? No?

If there is a practical alternative then I'm all for it. But renewables aren't effective enough at the moment. But limiting ourselves to the constraints of wind and solar whilst looking to add to the load is a bad idea.
Any alternative has to be practicable for a major economy, no?

[Zhivago]

Not impossible by any shot, but a huge investment, particularly if hydrogen is the answer after all.

Which brings us back to the key concern many have with electric cars, is there the capacity within the system to generate that much? And how is the power being generated, with what pollution side effects?

Power could be generated by renewable energy, or potentially in the longer term even fusion could be possible. Hydrogen on the other hand is primarily produced by steam reformation of hydrocarbon fuels with CO₂ as a product.

Point is surely that we should be moving away from using hydrocarbons?? No?

If there is a practical alternative then I'm all for it. But renewables aren't effective enough at the moment. But limiting ourselves to the constraints of wind and solar whilst looking to add to the load is a bad idea.
Any alternative has to be practicable for a major economy, no?

Who says we must limit ourselves to one method of electrical energy generation? The key point is to reduce emissions, especially in our living areas (such as cities). Fossil fuels with carbon capture could be used while we improve efficiency of renewable sources. Onshore wind is cost-effective enough, but indeed some of the other renewable sources need investment and improvement. But we are talking about the future here, I think we can assume progress on that front. I think we can also assume progress on the battery front - Lithium is not the only option, there will be new alternatives that promise more capacity and are more environmentally friendly as we are already starting to see. But we are talking about a 10-20 year vision.

[Sandydragon]

Power could be generated by renewable energy, or potentially in the longer term even fusion could be possible. Hydrogen on the other hand is primarily produced by steam reformation of hydrocarbon fuels with CO₂ as a product.

Point is surely that we should be moving away from using hydrocarbons?? No?

If there is a practical alternative then I'm all for it. But renewables aren't effective enough at the moment. But limiting ourselves to the constraints of wind and solar whilst looking to add to the load is a bad idea.
Any alternative has to be practicable for a major economy, no?

Who says we must limit ourselves to one method of electrical energy generation? The key point is to reduce emissions, especially in our living areas (such as cities). Fossil fuels with carbon capture could be used while we improve efficiency of renewable sources. Onshore wind is cost-effective enough, but indeed some of the other renewable sources need investment and improvement. But we are talking about the future here, I think we can assume progress on that front. I think we can also assume progress on the battery front - Lithium is not the only option, there will be new alternatives that promise more capacity and are more environmentally friendly as we are already starting to see. But we are talking about a 10-20 year vision.

I'm not suggesting we limit ourselves to one type of renewable, merely that there are current significant constraints with that form of electricity. These will hopefully change and improve, there are no guarantees but I wouldn't argue that it's reasonable to expect that it's likely that there will be.

I still dispute th 10-20 year vision though. That timeframe works with a viable alternative already in place. Currently electric cars don't have the range that all users need, and that's before we consider heavy vehicles. Realistically, the electric , or alternative, solution needs to be in place and becoming widely accepted. Then, once the end for petrol and diesel is less clear, you have a period of time where electric infrastructure is allowed to grow as the threat of a ban is discussed, probably over a decade at least before implementation, allowing all road users a fair chance of upgrading.

We're not talking ten years, more like 25-30 provided that a viable solution can be found, which in the case of electric,Evans a much quicker recharge time, better range, wider application across all vehicle types and the infrastructure to allow recharge and generate the power in the first place. With threats of brownouts if existing generation isn't upgraded or replaced, adding a whole new burden to the national grid is a recipe for disaster.

[J Dory]

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