RugbyRebels

16th man wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:. In response I’m told it was ok for him to be beaten as Veanui is really good.

I think people's point here might be more that, if you're going to set a standard for picking a full back as that they never get beaten one on one by an outside back, who has broken the line and has space to go on either side, your list of candidates is going to look pretty small.

What happens if he is in a club match against an England prospect back in a similar situation, who under a similar standard you would probably expect to be beatinng the full back every time under those circumstances? Is it whoever wins that one confrontation can be picked for England and the other one is rejected, or are we going to look at actual situational context.

Happy to look at context ie, I didn’t say never beaten by an outside back - he’s got the angle and the touch line to work with. Brown, Lewsey and many others make that tackle, IMO.

Mellsblue wrote:

16th man wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:. In response I’m told it was ok for him to be beaten as Veanui is really good.

I think people's point here might be more that, if you're going to set a standard for picking a full back as that they never get beaten one on one by an outside back, who has broken the line and has space to go on either side, your list of candidates is going to look pretty small.

What happens if he is in a club match against an England prospect back in a similar situation, who under a similar standard you would probably expect to be beatinng the full back every time under those circumstances? Is it whoever wins that one confrontation can be picked for England and the other one is rejected, or are we going to look at actual situational context.

Happy to look at context ie, I didn’t say never beaten by an outside back - he’s got the angle and the touch line to work with. Brown, Lewsey and many others make that tackle, IMO.

I don't necessarily know that they do, at least the first one. Veainu is fast and Steward is having to go flat out to even get to him. He hasn't got the angle - if he doesn't go out of control, he doesn't reach him and if he reaches him, he's easily steppable. Brown doesn't even reach Veainu in that circumstance. Lewsey, I'll give you, but even then it would've been spectacular, rather than a routine tackle.

If you want to say he should've done better on the second attempt where Veainu comes back at him, I'd be willing to agree with that, but he is also only 20 and in his second season, so I'm chalking that up as something he can work on in training.

Puja

I'm not sure it is something Steward can work on, it's more at that height he's just not going to have the best footwork. Swings and roundabouts

Digby wrote:Swings and roundabouts

This debate about Steward’s strengths and weaknesses or Steward’s actual strengths and weaknesses

Mellsblue wrote:

Digby wrote:Swings and roundabouts

This debate about Steward’s strengths and weaknesses or Steward’s actually strengths and weaknesses

What do you call those little seats on springs which rock back and forth? Now Steward on one of those would prove entertaining viewing in the event he could fold into one of the seats

Mikey Brown wrote:Get ready for Chick at openside.

Or Lawes?

Oakboy wrote:I wonder what were Jones's real, sructured goals for the AIs in terms of player development. The irony is that he is probably more interested in bedding in yet another coaching crew. The two issues coincide obviously to bring about the question of how much (if any) say his coaching assistants have in selection/playing style/player development. Which of them might be regarded as the expert in new player development? Presumably, all international coaching set-ups would include one such.

I rather suspect Jones is of the Brian Clough school of management, namely we discuss it then agree to do it my way (or the highway!)

jngf wrote:

Oakboy wrote:I wonder what were Jones's real, sructured goals for the AIs in terms of player development. The irony is that he is probably more interested in bedding in yet another coaching crew. The two issues coincide obviously to bring about the question of how much (if any) say his coaching assistants have in selection/playing style/player development. Which of them might be regarded as the expert in new player development? Presumably, all international coaching set-ups would include one such.

I rather suspect Jones is of the Brian Clough school of management, namely we discuss it then agree to do it my way (or the highway!)

In fairness to Jones, if players don't return from England training injured they tend to improve quite dramatically. Only have to look at Leicester this season with the performances of Heyes, Kelly, Martin and Steward - all definitely benefited from being in the England environment over the summer IMO. Cowan-Dickie, Lawes and May have all kicked on under him as well, Curry and Underhill have become much more rounded players... this idea he doesn't develop talent is unfair. He might be a massive knob, but he's pretty good at developing players.

SDHoneymonster wrote:In fairness to Jones, if players don't return from England training injured they tend to improve quite dramatically. Only have to look at Leicester this season with the performances of Heyes, Kelly, Martin and Steward - all definitely benefited from being in the England environment over the summer IMO. Cowan-Dickie, Lawes and May have all kicked on under him as well, Curry and Underhill have become much more rounded players... this idea he doesn't develop talent is unfair. He might be a massive knob, but he's pretty good at developing players.

And if you want a control group; one of Eddie's favourites used to be the second choice twin - and I'm sure that Tom shares what he can of what he's picked up.

Digby wrote:I'm not sure it is something Steward can work on, it's more at that height he's just not going to have the best footwork. Swings and roundabouts

That is very true. The lad is the same height as Itoje if I remember rightly. Against someone like TV in a cover situation it's always likely to be tough for him to make a dominant hit. He might well learn over time to become more effective in that area but it's likely to be an ask.

Incidentally Mells on the highlights link I posted there's a clip of TV leaving Brown on his backside with a step that's head on as well, much easier tackle. TV really does have some of the best footwork going, if he played for a bigger nation then there would be a lot more hype about him.

Now Marler has tested positive …

I know we were all told Farrell’s was a false positive, but it does seem like COVID is present in the squad …

FKAS wrote:

Digby wrote:I'm not sure it is something Steward can work on, it's more at that height he's just not going to have the best footwork. Swings and roundabouts

That is very true. The lad is the same height as Itoje if I remember rightly. Against someone like TV in a cover situation it's always likely to be tough for him to make a dominant hit. He might well learn over time to become more effective in that area but it's likely to be an ask.

Incidentally Mells on the highlights link I posted there's a clip of TV leaving Brown on his backside with a step that's head on as well, much easier tackle. TV really does have some of the best footwork going, if he played for a bigger nation then there would be a lot more hype about him.

My brain thought "Tom Varndell" to start with.

FKAS wrote:

Digby wrote:I'm not sure it is something Steward can work on, it's more at that height he's just not going to have the best footwork. Swings and roundabouts

That is very true. The lad is the same height as Itoje if I remember rightly. Against someone like TV in a cover situation it's always likely to be tough for him to make a dominant hit. He might well learn over time to become more effective in that area but it's likely to be an ask.

Incidentally Mells on the highlights link I posted there's a clip of TV leaving Brown on his backside with a step that's head on as well, much easier tackle. TV really does have some of the best footwork going, if he played for a bigger nation then there would be a lot more hype about him.

Will disagree that head on is easier - being flat footed waiting for the attacker to make their move is harder to cover, IMO. Seen TV play many times and he’s a great player, but it’s test match rugby he’s not really an outlier.

Scrumhead wrote:Now Marler has tested positive …

I know we were all told Farrell’s was a false positive, but it does seem like COVID is present in the squad …

There was a staff member positive before Farrell's test anyway wasn't there?

Is this Davison's moment to shine?

If that virus ends up rearing it's head in Tonga, then the England management team needs a collective fucking slap.

Actually I don't mind the English management around this, or at least I can understand it at the team level. They took by all accounts way more care during the 6N than other sides, the players struggled with it, performances perhaps struggled in part because of it, and they took a critical pasting.

Given the pasting we gave them it's hardly now surprising they're looking to back their players more. It might looking beyond England rugby be a mistake, but it's not easy when you're in camp to take a wider view. If it's a failing it's more a board than team management failing

What? You have at least one positive test in a group of people that are in intimate contact with one another, in intimate contact with 15-20 other people for 80 minutes, and that's OK because they took way more care during the 6N?

Whats the alternative MP? If games are cancelled because of 1 or 2 positive COVID tests then that makes national rugby unions untenable as COVID is not going away. RFU cannot function without Twickenham sell outs and I doubt the autumn opposition will be able to survive without their yearly tests.

Quite rightly their is a worry about COVID reaching Tonga but is this not better dealt with by isolating returning Tongan players with daily testing then cancelling entire matches?

I'm not saying it's okay, I'm saying you cannot be surprised when a rugby coach having faced criticism for rugby results having gone harder on Covid reacts in such fashion. Really it shouldn't be getting left to people who have such a conflict of interest. It'd also help if the criticism of the 6N results had been more nuanced but it rarely goes above being a results game

I could be horribly wrong about this, perhaps the player feedback in the England camp on the back of the 6N wasn't we want much more leeway, we want much more support and so on. maybe they said there's a greater concern than our careers and win bonuses, and no matter the slagging off in the press and social media please keep a strict ruling around anything to do with Covid in the name of the greater good. I'd just be surprised

Jones’ new script writer dips his toe in the water

Mail is suggesting Rodd is going to come into the squad and possibly straight on to the bench for Saturday. Interesting, given the short notice I'd have thought the easy option would've been to recall Mako, which also would've allowed me to use the phrase 'Return of the Mak' without shoehorning it in awkwardly at the end of a post.

SDHoneymonster wrote:Mail is suggesting Rodd is going to come into the squad and possibly straight on to the bench for Saturday. Interesting, given the short notice I'd have thought the easy option would've been to recall Mako, which also would've allowed me to use the phrase 'Return of the Mak' without shoehorning it in awkwardly at the end of a post.

Fine work sir.

padprop wrote:Whats the alternative MP? If games are cancelled because of 1 or 2 positive COVID tests then that makes national rugby unions untenable as COVID is not going away. RFU cannot function without Twickenham sell outs and I doubt the autumn opposition will be able to survive without their yearly tests.

Quite rightly their is a worry about COVID reaching Tonga but is this not better dealt with by isolating returning Tongan players with daily testing then cancelling entire matches?

Tonga will be king hit if the virus takes hold there. Tonga's infrastructure > RFU profit. Hospitalisation is > 2x higher for unvaccinated positive cases versus vaccinated cases. NHS workers are required to be vaccinated in the very near future, so why not professional sportspeople (in all teams), from whom the risk of spread internationally is several orders of magnitude more probable. The alternative is to not have these games yet, and the alternative to that alternative is to let the public in multiple countries take an uncalculated risk of spread, hospitiaisation, and an inevitable genetic and antigenic drift of the pathogen that will render currently unavailable vaccines ineffective. There is no easy simple solution, but there are decisions on priority that will have a direct bearing on how long the need to isolate persists in disrupting life, for rugby players and fans and people that don't give a fig about rugby but need to work and live. It's that simple.

morepork wrote:

padprop wrote:Whats the alternative MP? If games are cancelled because of 1 or 2 positive COVID tests then that makes national rugby unions untenable as COVID is not going away. RFU cannot function without Twickenham sell outs and I doubt the autumn opposition will be able to survive without their yearly tests.

Quite rightly their is a worry about COVID reaching Tonga but is this not better dealt with by isolating returning Tongan players with daily testing then cancelling entire matches?

Tonga will be king hit if the virus takes hold there. Tonga's infrastructure > RFU profit. Hospitalisation is > 2x higher for unvaccinated positive cases versus vaccinated cases. NHS workers are required to be vaccinated in the very near future, so why not professional sportspeople (in all teams), from whom the risk of spread internationally is several orders of magnitude more probable. The alternative is to not have these games yet, and the alternative to that alternative is to let the public in multiple countries take an uncalculated risk of spread, hospitiaisation, and an inevitable genetic and antigenic drift of the pathogen that will render currently unavailable vaccines ineffective. There is no easy simple solution, but there are decisions on priority that will have a direct bearing on how long the need to isolate persists in disrupting life, for rugby players and fans and people that don't give a fig about rugby but need to work and live. It's that simple.

Can you explain why the whole Tonga rugby circus can't just isolate for, say, 2 weeks, please. Surely, the overall profit from Murrayfield/Twickenham and a reasonable isolation of those exposed works for Tonga's innocents and their rugby?????

Steward is still only a kid, low on his learning curve and full of potential. He did well against Tonga and, as commented, looks very sound under the high ball. One concern seems to be his (apparent?) lack of real pace. I read an article a couple of weeks ago that suggested Steward was another Mike Brown, but faster. Don't agree with that at all. I think Brown's speed was underrated in his prime (he improved it at one point with sprint coaching.)
By comparison, Malins is faster, a better all-round footballer, a good game reader and attack orientated. I think he has the capacity to open up defences running from deep and would like to see him get a run of games at FB to show his stuff. In any case he would be a great bencher, since he can cover 15, 10, and wing.