RugbyRebels

Banquo wrote:

fivepointer wrote:This from Will Kelleher on twitter -

Welcome new followers to our News from the #statcave tweet after each Eddie Jones squad.
Now up to 183 players picked since 2016.
Henry Arundell! Will Joseph! Jack van Poortvliet! Come on Down! (in the Price is Right announcer voice).
Remember, 43% never won a cap with him.

....tbh i have no issue with that, he gets promising players in early to have a look; it highlights one of the issues with our rugby landscapes v international expectations.

Getting in young players to have a look at them is fair enough but what got my attention wast he % who dont get capped. 43% seems a lot to me, plus there are plenty of examples of players with less than 10 caps.
Jones does go through a lot of players and discards them, either after training camps or after a few appearances.

fivepointer wrote:

Banquo wrote:

fivepointer wrote:This from Will Kelleher on twitter -

Welcome new followers to our News from the #statcave tweet after each Eddie Jones squad.
Now up to 183 players picked since 2016.
Henry Arundell! Will Joseph! Jack van Poortvliet! Come on Down! (in the Price is Right announcer voice).
Remember, 43% never won a cap with him.

....tbh i have no issue with that, he gets promising players in early to have a look; it highlights one of the issues with our rugby landscapes v international expectations.

Getting in young players to have a look at them is fair enough but what got my attention wast he % who dont get capped. 43% seems a lot to me, plus there are plenty of examples of players with less than 10 caps.
Jones does go through a lot of players and discards them, either after training camps or after a few appearances.

I make it 79. It does sound high, but a lot of those aren’t actually that ‘young’. For a lot of these training squads, fringe players are also called in to make up the numbers if senior players are carrying knocks.

If you look at recent squads, guys like WGC or Elrington have been there because we needed cover at loosehead for live scrums etc. neither was likely to get a cap, but they do have a chance to impress and put themselves in contention for the proper squad.

I’d like to see the full list if anyone can find it. I would hazard a guess at there being 30 or more who are in the ‘training cover’/only for Barbarians games category. The wording is also misleading - ‘remember 43% never won a cap with him’. That suggests that like this list: https://www.ruck.co.uk/the-53-players-c ... er-capped/, they’re also including players who have caps but just weren’t capped by Eddie (Ben Morgan for example). The list from Ruck also goes by year so there are several included who have since been capped - Marcus Smith is there for 2017 and some of it is wrong like Will Collier being down as uncapped.

Of the young players who haven’t yet been capped, some just aren’t ready but are showing enough promise to keep bringing them in for experience/development. There must be 10+ in this category who still have a good chance of being capped this summer or in the near future. Barbeary, Lynagh, Pearson, Hassell-Collins, Freeman, Dingwall, Ojomoh and Kenningham are all examples of players who I’d say are very likely to pick up caps but either haven’t been quite ready or are in a position with massive competition.

Puja wrote:Mind, wasn't it "just a training squad" where Ford and the Vunipolae were dropped for the first time and then it proved to have stuck?

Define "stuck", given that Ford played in the 6N, and MVunipola is back in this squad, less than 12 months later (I think, my memory says that training squad was August / September last year, and I can't be bothered to find out)

Which Tyler wrote:

Puja wrote:Mind, wasn't it "just a training squad" where Ford and the Vunipolae were dropped for the first time and then it proved to have stuck?

Define "stuck", given that Ford played in the 6N, and MVunipola is back in this squad, less than 12 months later (I think, my memory says that training squad was August / September last year, and I can't be bothered to find out)

Fair point! Yeah, I think it was August/Sept last year, cause George was another one that was dropped and then recalled having learned his lesson after LCD got injured.

Puja

fivepointer wrote:

Banquo wrote:

fivepointer wrote:This from Will Kelleher on twitter -

Welcome new followers to our News from the #statcave tweet after each Eddie Jones squad.
Now up to 183 players picked since 2016.
Henry Arundell! Will Joseph! Jack van Poortvliet! Come on Down! (in the Price is Right announcer voice).
Remember, 43% never won a cap with him.

....tbh i have no issue with that, he gets promising players in early to have a look; it highlights one of the issues with our rugby landscapes v international expectations.

Getting in young players to have a look at them is fair enough but what got my attention wast he % who dont get capped. 43% seems a lot to me, plus there are plenty of examples of players with less than 10 caps.
Jones does go through a lot of players and discards them, either after training camps or after a few appearances.

Understood, I have no problem with it as before. As before, its a function of the weakness of our system imo.

http://cdn.jwplayer.com/players/QdyaelY ... 1TLMblCCNg

explains some of the selections a bit. Normal EJ smokescreens too....but clearly tipping his hat at smith'n'faz, unsurprisingly.

I'm hoping that Manu's call up is a keep in touch thing and he gets the summer off.

I'd say the same for all the guys who were Lions.

32nd Man wrote:I'm hoping that Manu's call up is a keep in touch thing and he gets the summer off.

I'd say the same for all the guys who were Lions.

16 games in 12 months, I think he can play a part though I'd prefer him to be the off the bench impact. We can afford two impact backs if Smith and Farrell are forming the inevitable 10/12 combination.

32nd Man wrote:I'm hoping that Manu's call up is a keep in touch thing and he gets the summer off.

I'd say the same for all the guys who were Lions.

I don't think he/we can afford to rest the Lions; we need to start winning and getting our act together. That won't happen without the likes of Itoje and Curry missing; they need the rest for sure, but it is what it is, and the OZ tour is pretty key to the team's development I'd say.

Without the Lions we can put out an alright side, the issue would be hooker with both George and LCD touring last summer. Eddie will want to work on the Smith and Faz 10/12 combination as well. If we went without any Lions then something like;

1. Genge
2. McGuigan
3. Stuart
4. Launchbury
5. Isiekwe
6. Chessum
7. J Willis
8. Dombrandt
9. Mitchell
10. Smith
11. May
12. Tuilagi
13. Marchant
14. J Cokanasiga
15. Steward

Bench - Blamire, Marler, Heyes, Ewels, Barbeary, Randall, Ford, Arundell

Perhaps could see a Ted Hill or a George Martin come in at 6 so that Chessum can go into the second row. Radwan or Hassell-Collins could come in if May isn't fit in time.

FKAS wrote:Without the Lions we can put out an alright side, the issue would be hooker with both George and LCD touring last summer. Eddie will want to work on the Smith and Faz 10/12 combination as well. If we went without any Lions then something like;

1. Genge
2. McGuigan
3. Stuart
4. Launchbury
5. Isiekwe
6. Chessum
7. J Willis
8. Dombrandt
9. Mitchell
10. Smith
11. May
12. Tuilagi
13. Marchant
14. J Cokanasiga
15. Steward

Bench - Blamire, Marler, Heyes, Ewels, Barbeary, Randall, Ford, Arundell

Perhaps could see a Ted Hill or a George Martin come in at 6 so that Chessum can go into the second row. Radwan or Hassell-Collins could come in if May isn't fit in time.

Any reason you're not going Underhillis in the back row so you could put Chessum in at lock? Or is it just assumption of Underhill inevitably injuring himself before the tests?

Puja

Puja wrote:

FKAS wrote:Without the Lions we can put out an alright side, the issue would be hooker with both George and LCD touring last summer. Eddie will want to work on the Smith and Faz 10/12 combination as well. If we went without any Lions then something like;

1. Genge
2. McGuigan
3. Stuart
4. Launchbury
5. Isiekwe
6. Chessum
7. J Willis
8. Dombrandt
9. Mitchell
10. Smith
11. May
12. Tuilagi
13. Marchant
14. J Cokanasiga
15. Steward

Bench - Blamire, Marler, Heyes, Ewels, Barbeary, Randall, Ford, Arundell

Perhaps could see a Ted Hill or a George Martin come in at 6 so that Chessum can go into the second row. Radwan or Hassell-Collins could come in if May isn't fit in time.

Any reason you're not going Underhillis in the back row so you could put Chessum in at lock? Or is it just assumption of Underhill inevitably injuring himself before the tests?

Puja

I'd completely forgotten he was fit again to be honest. That paired with Eddie's preference for a lock/6 hybrid on blindside swayed the backrow selection. Sort of makes sense if Launchbury is at 4 as he's not a particularly good lineout jumper so having both Isiekwe and Chessum jumping means that we can use Launchbury as a lifter, at the front or central to the mail drive. Lineout flexibility.

I suppose we could drop Ewels off the bench and go two backrow on there move Chessum into the second row in the second half and as the game breaks up have a more dynamic backrow having hopefully sapped the legs of the Aussie pack in the first with the power game.

Banquo wrote:

32nd Man wrote:I'm hoping that Manu's call up is a keep in touch thing and he gets the summer off.

I'd say the same for all the guys who were Lions.

I don't think he/we can afford to rest the Lions; we need to start winning and getting our act together. That won't happen without the likes of Itoje and Curry missing; they need the rest for sure, but it is what it is, and the OZ tour is pretty key to the team's development I'd say.

Yeah. I’d agree with that.

I don’t mind the odd experiment if there’s a potential for good reward - i.e. more game time for Chessum and seeing whether Arundell is ready to be unleashed (or not), but on the whole, this tour is about ‘getting our act together’. If we can come out of it with a series win, it could be the kick start we need in building form and momentum for he RWC.

I’m really hoping McGuigan does get a proper shot. I think he’s been genuinely excellent this season and has often been the best player on the pitch in the games I’ve watched in full. I don’t see him as a major risk and if he gets the chance, I think he could be a very handy addition.

I can’t disagree we need to get our act together and build some cohesion, but at the same time many in this side have looked a bit jaded and/or knackered.

He botched the period with the Sarries relegation, Lions buildup etc and it’s been hard to find a way back from that I think. Not resting the Lions guys just seems like kicking the can further down the road, even closer to the World Cup.

Neither scenario is ideal, but a bit of a freshen up and being able to reintroduce a few big guns in the Autumn after a rest & full pre-season would be nice. It doesn’t have to be the entire Lions group. Farrell has had a significant amount of time out and is now looking as sharp as he has for years. Billy too, though not a Lion. Not sure what the status on Tom Curry is, whether he needs the gametime now or is just burnt out?

Long term planning wise, I’d say he’s botched pretty much everything since the World Cup.

Mellsblue wrote:Long term planning wise, I’d say he’s botched pretty much everything since the World Cup.

Agreed but we are stuck with him till 2023. I don't think he will get anywhere with new ideas or players. His best chance of achieving something like 'best possible' performances is to go back to tried and tested methods and players. He should pick his best XV for every game regardless, keep coaching to a bare minimum and let the players practise and practise and practise . . .

It's not what I want from England's Head Coach but it's the best that can be done if the Head Coach is Jones.

FKAS wrote:Without the Lions we can put out an alright side, the issue would be hooker with both George and LCD touring last summer. Eddie will want to work on the Smith and Faz 10/12 combination as well. If we went without any Lions then something like;

1. Genge
2. McGuigan
3. Stuart
4. Launchbury
5. Isiekwe
6. Chessum
7. J Willis
8. Dombrandt
9. Mitchell
10. Smith
11. May
12. Tuilagi
13. Marchant
14. J Cokanasiga
15. Steward

Bench - Blamire, Marler, Heyes, Ewels, Barbeary, Randall, Ford, Arundell

Perhaps could see a Ted Hill or a George Martin come in at 6 so that Chessum can go into the second row. Radwan or Hassell-Collins could come in if May isn't fit in time.

Its not about having an 'alright side' but about the best possible team actually settling in together, and ideally getting a winning habit. I'm not even sure if that side is even alright tbh; front five isn't worrying anybody for a start, and the back three doesn't strike me as especially likely to be cohesive in the back field. The back row would be 'interesting' in a pacey game.

Oakboy wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:Long term planning wise, I’d say he’s botched pretty much everything since the World Cup.

, keep coaching to a bare minimum and let the players practise and practise and practise . . .

s.

They need as much coaching as they can get imo- practicing without coaching is also pretty pointless tbh.

Oakboy wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:Long term planning wise, I’d say he’s botched pretty much everything since the World Cup.

Agreed but we are stuck with him till 2023. I don't think he will get anywhere with new ideas or players. His best chance of achieving something like 'best possible' performances is to go back to tried and tested methods and players. He should pick his best XV for every game regardless, keep coaching to a bare minimum and let the players practise and practise and practise . . .

It's not what I want from England's Head Coach but it's the best that can be done if the Head Coach is Jones.

I knew you’d reply to this!

Banquo wrote:

FKAS wrote:Without the Lions we can put out an alright side, the issue would be hooker with both George and LCD touring last summer. Eddie will want to work on the Smith and Faz 10/12 combination as well. If we went without any Lions then something like;

1. Genge
2. McGuigan
3. Stuart
4. Launchbury
5. Isiekwe
6. Chessum
7. J Willis
8. Dombrandt
9. Mitchell
10. Smith
11. May
12. Tuilagi
13. Marchant
14. J Cokanasiga
15. Steward

Bench - Blamire, Marler, Heyes, Ewels, Barbeary, Randall, Ford, Arundell

Perhaps could see a Ted Hill or a George Martin come in at 6 so that Chessum can go into the second row. Radwan or Hassell-Collins could come in if May isn't fit in time.

Its not about having an 'alright side' but about the best possible team actually settling in together, and ideally getting a winning habit. I'm not even sure if that side is even alright tbh; front five isn't worrying anybody for a start, and the back three doesn't strike me as especially likely to be cohesive in the back field. The back row would be 'interesting' in a pacey game.

We are playing Australia they aren't renowned for their tight five.

1. Genge - our best loosehead
2. McGuigan - been on stellar form for Newcastle, 14 tries with only Malins scoring more
3. Stuart - our second best tighthead
4. Launchbury - tried and tested international
5. Isiekwe - lineout technician - admittedly he'd be the one most likely dropped in a shake up of back/second row.

Are we likely to see a pacey game in Australia? It's their winter the weather can be pretty changeable. The backrow should be fine and we could adjust the bench options to give us more pace there for the second half.

Back three should be fine. Steward is rock solid, May is rapid and Big Joe is a try scoring unit. May has the experience and knows Steward so they should be able to cover well enough.

As it stands I'd expect us to take Farrell and George with us to Australia minimum. I think Eddie will want to work on the Smith/Farrell combination and George will add significantly to the tight five. Whether Itoje and Lawes go I don't know, there is an argument for them having the summer to prepare for next season given they've both had issues post 6N.

FKAS wrote:

Banquo wrote:

FKAS wrote:Without the Lions we can put out an alright side, the issue would be hooker with both George and LCD touring last summer. Eddie will want to work on the Smith and Faz 10/12 combination as well. If we went without any Lions then something like;

1. Genge
2. McGuigan
3. Stuart
4. Launchbury
5. Isiekwe
6. Chessum
7. J Willis
8. Dombrandt
9. Mitchell
10. Smith
11. May
12. Tuilagi
13. Marchant
14. J Cokanasiga
15. Steward

Bench - Blamire, Marler, Heyes, Ewels, Barbeary, Randall, Ford, Arundell

Perhaps could see a Ted Hill or a George Martin come in at 6 so that Chessum can go into the second row. Radwan or Hassell-Collins could come in if May isn't fit in time.

Its not about having an 'alright side' but about the best possible team actually settling in together, and ideally getting a winning habit. I'm not even sure if that side is even alright tbh; front five isn't worrying anybody for a start, and the back three doesn't strike me as especially likely to be cohesive in the back field. The back row would be 'interesting' in a pacey game.

We are playing Australia they aren't renowned for their tight five.

1. Genge - our best loosehead
2. McGuigan - been on stellar form for Newcastle, 14 tries with only Malins scoring more
3. Stuart - our second best tighthead
4. Launchbury - tried and tested international
5. Isiekwe - lineout technician - admittedly he'd be the one most likely dropped in a shake up of back/second row.

Are we likely to see a pacey game in Australia? It's their winter the weather can be pretty changeable. The backrow should be fine and we could adjust the bench options to give us more pace there for the second half.

Back three should be fine. Steward is rock solid, May is rapid and Big Joe is a try scoring unit. May has the experience and knows Steward so they should be able to cover well enough.

As it stands I'd expect us to take Farrell and George with us to Australia minimum. I think Eddie will want to work on the Smith/Farrell combination and George will add significantly to the tight five. Whether Itoje and Lawes go I don't know, there is an argument for them having the summer to prepare for next season given they've both had issues post 6N.

....'our best/our second best' still aren't frightening anyone- which was the point, Aus or otherwise; that back row you have picked definitely lack pace/mobility at test level, as good as they are individually, and yes, I'd think Aus would want it pacy. On the back three, again it wasn't about the individuals but about their cohesiveness- imo it would lack leadership at the back......and pretty iffy kicking ability, and two aren't match fit. Just looks bang average as a team, frankly. Guts maybe, gas, less so

Moot argument for me though, as I wouldn't leave George, Sinckler, Itoje or Curry behind.

Jones will not leave anyone behind unless he has to. He wont want to go to Aus with a weakened squad. A few guys might be forced to sit it out but I expect us to take a squad as close to full strength as possible.

Banquo wrote:

FKAS wrote:

Banquo wrote: Its not about having an 'alright side' but about the best possible team actually settling in together, and ideally getting a winning habit. I'm not even sure if that side is even alright tbh; front five isn't worrying anybody for a start, and the back three doesn't strike me as especially likely to be cohesive in the back field. The back row would be 'interesting' in a pacey game.

We are playing Australia they aren't renowned for their tight five.

1. Genge - our best loosehead
2. McGuigan - been on stellar form for Newcastle, 14 tries with only Malins scoring more
3. Stuart - our second best tighthead
4. Launchbury - tried and tested international
5. Isiekwe - lineout technician - admittedly he'd be the one most likely dropped in a shake up of back/second row.

Are we likely to see a pacey game in Australia? It's their winter the weather can be pretty changeable. The backrow should be fine and we could adjust the bench options to give us more pace there for the second half.

Back three should be fine. Steward is rock solid, May is rapid and Big Joe is a try scoring unit. May has the experience and knows Steward so they should be able to cover well enough.

As it stands I'd expect us to take Farrell and George with us to Australia minimum. I think Eddie will want to work on the Smith/Farrell combination and George will add significantly to the tight five. Whether Itoje and Lawes go I don't know, there is an argument for them having the summer to prepare for next season given they've both had issues post 6N.

....'our best/our second best' still aren't frightening anyone- which was the point, Aus or otherwise; that back row you have picked definitely lack pace/mobility at test level, as good as they are individually, and yes, I'd think Aus would want it pacy. On the back three, again it wasn't about the individuals but about their cohesiveness- imo it would lack leadership at the back......and pretty iffy kicking ability, and two aren't match fit. Just looks bang average as a team, frankly. Guts maybe, gas, less so

Moot argument for me though, as I wouldn't leave George, Sinckler, Itoje or Curry behind.

Wouldn't scare anybody? Well I doubt any pro player is scared. Genge and Stuart would walk into the Aussie front row tomorrow. Particularly Genge on current form.

Who would you add to the back three for experience? Where's the experienced wingers lining up to step in?

For me one of the major issues Eddie found when Sarries went down was the lack of options within the squad when the go to options aren't match fit. Second row is a major issue currently because it's Itoje and A N Other. We have no idea who that other is. Flankers behind Lawes and Curry is a complete guessing game. 15 man teams don't win a world cup, squads win world cups. You need depth and you can't just keep relying on the same players particularly when some of them look like they are taped together coming into the end of the season.

If only polls were still a thing on here we could decide this once and for all.