Jones gone (Now 100% confirmed)

[Mr Mwenda]

To be honest, I hope there is a long, broader discussion about the whole of English rugby. In the short term there is a need to either jettison Jones or lie back and think of another England team for the next year. However, I agree with Puja that I'd rather Jones was kept than someone woeful being appointed. If the latter occurred, if results pick up due to the change of scene, there's a risk of a similar situation to when Lancaster was appointed too early in his career.

More broadly, the situation with wasps and Worcester perhaps provides a chance to make radical changes. I know which and others have good plans and I hope thoughts like that are on the table. However, my concern is there is also some examination of the extent that the premiership prepares players for international level. The number of experienced players who make very stupid mistakes leading to costly penalties is staggering to me. I want to know why England players seem to have no idea when to cheat despite long playing careers. As a non club fan i am tired of England players comparing poorly with e.g. bok second string players.

[Oakboy]

To be honest, I hope there is a long, broader discussion about the whole of English rugby. In the short term there is a need to either jettison Jones or lie back and think of another England team for the next year. However, I agree with Puja that I'd rather Jones was kept than someone woeful being appointed. If the latter occurred, if results pick up due to the change of scene, there's a risk of a similar situation to when Lancaster was appointed too early in his career.

More broadly, the situation with wasps and Worcester perhaps provides a chance to make radical changes. I know which and others have good plans and I hope thoughts like that are on the table. However, my concern is there is also some examination of the extent that the premiership prepares players for international level. The number of experienced players who make very stupid mistakes leading to costly penalties is staggering to me. I want to know why England players seem to have no idea when to cheat despite long playing careers. As a non club fan i am tired of England players comparing poorly with e.g. bok second string players.

Your last two sentences raise an interesting question on indiscipline: what are the influences? Is it just that a player is thick? Itoje is not but he was one of the worst offenders earlier in his career. Is it club background? Neither Billy V nor Hill are penalty liabilities for their clubs. Is it the extra pressure of international rugby? Possibly but I'd guess Curry is a worse offender for club than country. Is it the England training set-up? Who knows but ill-discipline has been a feature so constantly that the very least we can say is that the coaches have failed to correct it.

One other possibility of course is simple frustration. Players could be winding themselves up over failure to perform, individually and collectively. If the team/squad mood was right I suspect discipline would improve automatically.

[Stom]

To be honest, I hope there is a long, broader discussion about the whole of English rugby. In the short term there is a need to either jettison Jones or lie back and think of another England team for the next year. However, I agree with Puja that I'd rather Jones was kept than someone woeful being appointed. If the latter occurred, if results pick up due to the change of scene, there's a risk of a similar situation to when Lancaster was appointed too early in his career.

More broadly, the situation with wasps and Worcester perhaps provides a chance to make radical changes. I know which and others have good plans and I hope thoughts like that are on the table. However, my concern is there is also some examination of the extent that the premiership prepares players for international level. The number of experienced players who make very stupid mistakes leading to costly penalties is staggering to me. I want to know why England players seem to have no idea when to cheat despite long playing careers. As a non club fan i am tired of England players comparing poorly with e.g. bok second string players.

Your last two sentences raise an interesting question on indiscipline: what are the influences? Is it just that a player is thick? Itoje is not but he was one of the worst offenders earlier in his career. Is it club background? Neither Billy V nor Hill are penalty liabilities for their clubs. Is it the extra pressure of international rugby? Possibly but I'd guess Curry is a worse offender for club than country. Is it the England training set-up? Who knows but ill-discipline has been a feature so constantly that the very least we can say is that the coaches have failed to correct it.

One other possibility of course is simple frustration. Players could be winding themselves up over failure to perform, individually and collectively. If the team/squad mood was right I suspect discipline would improve automatically.

As a football parallel, look at England now, compared to England pre-Southgate. Sure, the tactics might be boring, but we very rarely lose thanks to stupid mistakes. Or when we do, those mistakes are gone by the next game. Ditto, in club football, Arsenal: they stopped making stupid mistakes and are top of the table. So what's the commonality? Players love playing for them. Reports from the dressing rooms are of teams who love to be around each other and love coming into work every day.

In rugby, look at the tight knit group Sarries had, and look at how close the Quins lads look, especially when we were winning the title.

So much of sport is mental, and if we're not creating a dressing room atmosphere that promotes positive attitudes, we're not going to win things.

On that topic...so many older managers in football have been struggling in recent times adapting what worked at the turn of the century to modern footballers. Because, well, there are generational differences in how young men respond to feedback. If Jones is also struggling to adapt, not only because he's had his greatest successes in some pretty extreme cultures, that is a massive turn-off. It's a big reason someone like Joe Marler might, for example, remove himself from the England camp as much as possible. It's not necessarily England that's the problem, but Jones' style of management...

But that is all speculation.

[Mellsblue]

Which comes first, losing or crap team morale/spirit/environment?
There’s plenty of noises from the new leadership group that the England camps are now a more relaxed, player led environment but that isn’t translating into better results. You could argue the results are worse, in fact. All correlation vs causation dependent, obvs.
In the NFL, Bellichek is a renowned disciplinarian but no one cared whilst he was winning.

[Stom]

Which comes first, losing or crap team morale/spirit/environment?
There’s plenty of noises from the new leadership group that the England camps are now a more relaxed, player led environment but that isn’t translating into better results. You could argue the results are worse, in fact. All correlation vs causation dependent, obvs.
In the NFL, Bellichek is a renowned disciplinarian but no one cared whilst he was winning.

Well, Arsenal were shit last season...and the season before that...and before that...so it's a quite quick turnaround, and as I understand, it's mainly based on psychology rather than tactics, which are relatively simple - or as simple as they can be coming from the Pep book...

[Mr Mwenda]

Is the England squad a particularly unhappy place? I have been struck by how few people Jones has discarded have attacked him. Likewise, I think the way Marler's mental health issues have been handled seems to have been very good. Jones seems to have been understanding and kept the door open on several occasions.

[Banquo]

I believe this headline is about to become true... rumourmill v.2

[Which Tyler]

I believe this headline is about to become true... rumourmill v.2

Actual rumour? or shit-stirring?

[Banquo]

I believe this headline is about to become true... rumourmill v.2

Actual rumour? or shit-stirring?

actual journo based rumour. Media meet and greet has been cancelled.

[Mikey Brown]

Not sure it would been be the right call, or wouldn’t end up worse long term, but would certainly be entertaining to see what happens.

[Mikey Brown]

Is the England squad a particularly unhappy place? I have been struck by how few people Jones has discarded have attacked him. Likewise, I think the way Marler's mental health issues have been handled seems to have been very good. Jones seems to have been understanding and kept the door open on several occasions.

Finally got around to watching this whole segment (timestamped in the link). Simpson seems pretty balanced about it, and obviously it does get results to a degree, but you have to wonder how far you can push that kind of behaviour/atmosphere. I don't think the players are necessarily unhappy (not that they'd be particularly keen to voice it publicly if they weren't) but at the same time you'd have to have bought in to it to some degree in order to keep turning up every week and dealing with it.

[Oakboy]

Maybe, this sums things up:

BBC rugby union correspondent Chris Jones:

"The mood music around Twickenham is that Eddie Jones' future is in the balance, with the RFU hierarchy rattled by the reaction of the supporters at the end of the meek defeat by South Africa.

While the union have stood squarely behind Jones at various pressure points during his seven-year tenure, this feels different, even though the Rugby World Cup is around the corner.

Jones - and the RFU's - fixation with the 2023 tournament has come at a cost, with seven defeats this calendar year and a rugby public rapidly descending into apathy."

[Freddo]

The RFU should have taken action after the 6N. There's only so many times you can use the excuse of results and performances not being important as it's all in service of the World Cup. The biggest positive will be players who have been discarded or overlooked hopefully having a clean slate.

[twitchy]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... es-future/


Decision-makers at the Rugby Football Union find themselves between a rock and a hard place. A pile of paperwork might be weighing on their minds, as well.

The majority of England supporters sit on a spectrum that starts at frustration and travels through anger to reach apathy. Retaining Eddie Jones will almost certainly bring about a spike of ill feeling ahead of the Six Nations.

But ripping off the band-aid comes with drawbacks, too. There will be pay-outs for the RFU to complete and severance agreements to settle. The latter seem inevitable because, frankly, why would an incoming candidate want to work with the backroom team left behind by Jones?

No single area of England’s game has been consistently convincing or effective over the past year. Even if we accept that tactical expansion begets growing pains, that cold truth is unacceptable. And any new figurehead would surely need to replace the incumbents with trusted lieutenants – or at least recruit a complementary blend of unit coaches.

That is before one addresses question marks hovering above others. Ronan O’Gara, current head honcho of La Rochelle, the reigning European champions, is serving his fourth ban in a year following a series of run-ins with referees. Scott Robertson may be eyeing an ascension to the All Blacks gig in 2023.
Borthwick to serve apprenticeship under Gatland?

A partnership of Warren Gatland and Steve Borthwick seems sensible on a number of levels. The pair appeared to work well together on the 2017 British and Irish Lions tour of New Zealand. Gatland is renowned for galvanising squads. He could occupy front of house for 10 months with Borthwick overseeing technical aspects. When the World Cup is over, Gatland could leave Borthwick to assume greater control.

Back in April, when it appeared that the RFU could be more measured while weighing up England’s next head coach, Conor O’Shea floated the possibility of embedding the chosen one “into the programme” before next summer. Jones did not entertain that idea publicly. Might Borthwick serve a brief apprenticeship under Gatland instead?

This is not a given, either. Leicester Tigers are unlikely to stand in the way of Borthwick, but if things go south in the 2023 Six Nations before a disastrous World Cup, the association with two poor campaigns could damage his reputation. For that to happen in a situation that is not entirely on his terms would be galling. There is no such thing as a shot to nothing.

At 43, Borthwick has plenty of time. He would continue to be immensely valuable to England by remaining in situ at Leicester as the mentor of youngsters such as Jack van Poortvliet, Freddie Steward, Dan Kelly, Charlie Atkinson, George Martin, Joe Heyes, Nic Dolly, Ollie Chessum and Gabriel Oghre.

To revisit the importance of assembling a strong coaching team, Rob Baxter and Mark McCall have hugely talented and influential people around them at Exeter Chiefs and Saracens, respectively. Without casting any doubt on his commitment to Tigers, Borthwick must have considered an England wish-list. Aled Walters, who has been called the yang to his yin, would figure. The charismatic conditioning guru, who won a World Cup winner’s medal with South Africa in 2019, is a driven man.

“I want another one,” Walters told Telegraph Sport in an exclusive interview earlier this year. “The aspiration would be to take Leicester as far as possible. I am fully focused on seeing this group achieve all that they can. That’s number one – let’s do as much as we can here. The long-term goal, though, and I’ve only said this to the missus, I think, is that I want to get to a World Cup final with a different nation at some stage.

“That would be a genuine test because, at the back of my mind, I’ve felt myself go sometimes: ‘Were the Boks always going to win it, with the quality of player and calibre of athlete that they have?’ That would be the biggest test for me. Can I work with another nation and at least get to a final? That’s the long-term goal, anyway.”
Is history on the side of under fire Jones?

The RFU’s impending review should reflect on Jones’ immediate impact upon England. He sparked 22 wins from 23 Tests between 2016 and 2017 with a largely similar group of players. Could someone else refresh the squad and invoke a short-term reaction?

A strong record in World Cups has to be perched at the top of the reasons to keep Jones. It would be deeply ironic, however, if the review gives him a mandate to give his coaching set-up another shake. Jones has already chopped and changed and churned a great deal.

Another way of spelling out the awkwardness of the RFU’s predicament is that Bill Sweeney, the organisation’s chief executive, was asked whether he should be looking at his own position during last week’s select committee grilling on the demise of Wasps and Worcester Warriors.

Were he to keep Jones and witness another grim Six Nations, two top positions, those of head coach and chief executive, would become untenable.

[Mellsblue]

‘A coach hired by the RFU to improve the culture in the England dressing room is understood to be considering leaving the role only six weeks after taking it.
Danny Kerry, who joined as training coordinator on October 17, before the start of the autumn internationals, is one of the most respected coaches in UK sport. He led the Great Britain women’s hockey team to bronze at the 2012 Olympics and then gold at the Rio Games four years later.…. However, The Times understands that Kerry nearly resigned at the beginning of November and it is believed he is still considering his position.
In a separate development, Jones has also been informed that England’s team doctor, Richard Tingay, resigned from his role after the conclusion of the autumn Tests.’

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/one- ... -7m0r3kwj8

[fivepointer]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... es-future/


Decision-makers at the Rugby Football Union find themselves between a rock and a hard place. A pile of paperwork might be weighing on their minds, as well.

The majority of England supporters sit on a spectrum that starts at frustration and travels through anger to reach apathy. Retaining Eddie Jones will almost certainly bring about a spike of ill feeling ahead of the Six Nations.

But ripping off the band-aid comes with drawbacks, too. There will be pay-outs for the RFU to complete and severance agreements to settle. The latter seem inevitable because, frankly, why would an incoming candidate want to work with the backroom team left behind by Jones?

No single area of England’s game has been consistently convincing or effective over the past year. Even if we accept that tactical expansion begets growing pains, that cold truth is unacceptable. And any new figurehead would surely need to replace the incumbents with trusted lieutenants – or at least recruit a complementary blend of unit coaches.

That is before one addresses question marks hovering above others. Ronan O’Gara, current head honcho of La Rochelle, the reigning European champions, is serving his fourth ban in a year following a series of run-ins with referees. Scott Robertson may be eyeing an ascension to the All Blacks gig in 2023.
Borthwick to serve apprenticeship under Gatland?

A partnership of Warren Gatland and Steve Borthwick seems sensible on a number of levels. The pair appeared to work well together on the 2017 British and Irish Lions tour of New Zealand. Gatland is renowned for galvanising squads. He could occupy front of house for 10 months with Borthwick overseeing technical aspects. When the World Cup is over, Gatland could leave Borthwick to assume greater control.

Back in April, when it appeared that the RFU could be more measured while weighing up England’s next head coach, Conor O’Shea floated the possibility of embedding the chosen one “into the programme” before next summer. Jones did not entertain that idea publicly. Might Borthwick serve a brief apprenticeship under Gatland instead?

This is not a given, either. Leicester Tigers are unlikely to stand in the way of Borthwick, but if things go south in the 2023 Six Nations before a disastrous World Cup, the association with two poor campaigns could damage his reputation. For that to happen in a situation that is not entirely on his terms would be galling. There is no such thing as a shot to nothing.

At 43, Borthwick has plenty of time. He would continue to be immensely valuable to England by remaining in situ at Leicester as the mentor of youngsters such as Jack van Poortvliet, Freddie Steward, Dan Kelly, Charlie Atkinson, George Martin, Joe Heyes, Nic Dolly, Ollie Chessum and Gabriel Oghre.

To revisit the importance of assembling a strong coaching team, Rob Baxter and Mark McCall have hugely talented and influential people around them at Exeter Chiefs and Saracens, respectively. Without casting any doubt on his commitment to Tigers, Borthwick must have considered an England wish-list. Aled Walters, who has been called the yang to his yin, would figure. The charismatic conditioning guru, who won a World Cup winner’s medal with South Africa in 2019, is a driven man.

“I want another one,” Walters told Telegraph Sport in an exclusive interview earlier this year. “The aspiration would be to take Leicester as far as possible. I am fully focused on seeing this group achieve all that they can. That’s number one – let’s do as much as we can here. The long-term goal, though, and I’ve only said this to the missus, I think, is that I want to get to a World Cup final with a different nation at some stage.

“That would be a genuine test because, at the back of my mind, I’ve felt myself go sometimes: ‘Were the Boks always going to win it, with the quality of player and calibre of athlete that they have?’ That would be the biggest test for me. Can I work with another nation and at least get to a final? That’s the long-term goal, anyway.”
Is history on the side of under fire Jones?

The RFU’s impending review should reflect on Jones’ immediate impact upon England. He sparked 22 wins from 23 Tests between 2016 and 2017 with a largely similar group of players. Could someone else refresh the squad and invoke a short-term reaction?

A strong record in World Cups has to be perched at the top of the reasons to keep Jones. It would be deeply ironic, however, if the review gives him a mandate to give his coaching set-up another shake. Jones has already chopped and changed and churned a great deal.

Another way of spelling out the awkwardness of the RFU’s predicament is that Bill Sweeney, the organisation’s chief executive, was asked whether he should be looking at his own position during last week’s select committee grilling on the demise of Wasps and Worcester Warriors.

Were he to keep Jones and witness another grim Six Nations, two top positions, those of head coach and chief executive, would become untenable.

Good piece this. The pros and cons are laid out clearly. No easy solutions and there will be considerable cost and disruption if Jones & his coaches do get binned. That, and the fact that time is limited before the WC and 2019 was a decent effort, may save Jones bacon.
But what if the 6N's are grim? We have 3 home games but finish off with France (H) and Ireland (A). What would be an acceptable return?

[Oakboy]

Let's face it, the RFU have put themselves in this position. Had they got rid of Jones after the 2019 RWC, somebody better could have had the full four years' build-up. Trying to hide behind severance cost excuses or whatever just highlights the administration's incompetence. When things are this bad the question needs to be asked, "Can we afford NOT to change?" In terms of the long-term good of English rugby, which should be the RFU's only consideration, I suggest the answer is a resounding 'No'.

One point is that an appointment of a caretaker coaching crew leaves them in a good position to start the post-RWC permanent appointment process now. Another is that they might get Baxter or McCall to take on short-term part-time roles that would create exactly the right temporary environment. Either would get an immediate response in enthusiasm, I suspect. The existing squad, more or less, has to take us through the coming months whatever the RFU do. The best English club managers might just get the most out of the players on a short-term stint.

[Stom]

I think it shows just how shortsighted the fixation on the World Cup is.

Sure, success is important, but rugby is also fighting against other sports for airtime. If viewing numbers are down because England are almost unbearable to watch and aren’t even winning… that’s a big issue.

[Oakboy]

I think it shows just how shortsighted the fixation on the World Cup is.

Sure, success is important, but rugby is also fighting against other sports for airtime. If viewing numbers are down because England are almost unbearable to watch and aren’t even winning… that’s a big issue.

I see no problem with being a bit experimental in the first year or two of a four-year WC cycle but a full fixation approach is wrong. It means finishing R/U is zilch.

[Puja]

I think it shows just how shortsighted the fixation on the World Cup is.

Sure, success is important, but rugby is also fighting against other sports for airtime. If viewing numbers are down because England are almost unbearable to watch and aren’t even winning… that’s a big issue.

This is bang on. Rugby has to sell itself in this country and a major part of that is the national side's success and style. It's all very well saying, "Oh, I only care about the world cup and we're hiding all of our attack and skills till then," if the game's gone bust before it comes around.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

There are rumours that ticket sales for the 6N have been sluggish…

[Which Tyler]

There are rumours that ticket sales for the 6N have been sluggish…

That would certainly make the RFU sit up and take notice

[fivepointer]

Makes sense to plan around a WC cycle. Its perfectly logical to see a WC as a culmination of effort over a 4 year period. But that doesnt mean you can sacrifice results in pursuit of that sole aim. And nor do you need to. Those teams in pole position to win next year - SA, France, Ireland & NZ - are all winning games and playing far better rugby than we're managing.
Jones using poor performances/results on the basis that WC preparation is of paramount importance is just bullshit.

[Beasties]

I think it shows just how shortsighted the fixation on the World Cup is.

Sure, success is important, but rugby is also fighting against other sports for airtime. If viewing numbers are down because England are almost unbearable to watch and aren’t even winning… that’s a big issue.

Almost is doing a lot of heavy lifting there.

[pandion]

I've said it before that we have the resources to be just like SA,NZ, France and expect to win every game. Anything less is a mistake and Eddie's WC vanity project shame's us.