Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Mon Jan 16, 2023 10:17 pm
Is Lawes at lock really a thing anymore? He’s barely played there for 2 years hasn’t he? I guess it’s only really the scrum that is the concern, but the most recent SA pumping must surely still be fresh in the mind in that regard.
How much heft does Chessum offer? Ribbans or Tizard to push Hill would have made a lot more sense to me than Isiekwe.
Based on Steve's panegyric of Lawes in the press conference, he's playing somewhere, and I'd prefer us to use our plethora of actual flankers. He's not played there for 2 years, but I'd still rather him at 5 than the rugby-IQ-dimwit of Hill.
I'd be stunned if Lawes turned up at lock for England in anything other than an emergency. It's actually 3 years now that he's exclusively been playing in the back row
Chessum considered as lock or back row cover? If lock then Ribbans, if back row a number of others, ted hill, Tom Willis, barbeary, hell even Ackerman.
Tight head more difficult, wouldn’t have selected Cole regardless of prem form as it can only be the shortest of stop gap options and I differ from Borthwick there if that’s his plan. Heyes has struggled in Europe and whilst he’s young and possibly has some promise I just don’t think he’s close to international standard. That said deciding who ought to be there instead isn’t so easy as there aren’t many English players. Not sure VRR could be converted as Eddie had mooted. Will Stuart nearly recovered? Perhaps not enough.
Chessum's a lock and should only really be considered there for England (and I don't believe has played anywhere else in his caps so far). I don't know I'd necessarily agree Ribbans is ahead, but either way, Isiekwe should make way first, so it's a moot point.
The tighthead one's the real thing that I'd object to - I accept your premise on both Cole and Heyes, but we are left with the simple question of who the hell else is there. Stuart's nowhere near coming back in time and beyond that, we're looking at who? Trevor Davidson?! No chance. We definitely can't convert a loosehead - that's as batty as Eddie's suggestion of BCurry as a 9 - switching sides and getting up to international level is a project that would take a year, bare minimum.
I'll take the shortest of stop gap options - Cole's a perfectly serviceable option as third choice till the end of the RWC. Hopefully after that, either Heyes will kick on or one of the age group lads will push through.
Puja
I'd also add that Heyes struggled in one European Game against a Welsh international loosehead who's bang in form. He then went and dominated at the scrum Vs Clermont in Clermont last weekend. He's a young guy, there's areas of his game that need improvement but as Puja says the list of alternatives is really short. The only one maybe worthy of a punt might have been Paul Hill at Saints.
I was a bit surprised by Borthwick's lock choices, particularly Isiekwe in and Ribbans out. Chessum's inclusion shouldn't really be a surprise being he's a great 19 option covering lock and in an emergency blindside doing so well under Eddie.
The selection could have been more Tigers centric it's not like Harry Wells has got a call up or Potter is starting on the wing.
Surprising to me that Nick Schonert doesnt appear to be an option at TH. Looks in very good form to me and is seldom bettered at the scrum.
If fit, Balmain might have been under consideration.
But we do have a bit of a depth issue at THP. Will we ever see the best of Marcus Street or Ehren Painter?
Nic Shonert went off with an injury following a nasty head knock at the weekend. That probably stopped any suggestion he might make the squad.
It would depend on what's Borthwick's thoughts are, Cole is in great form and has a wealth of experience. Is there then a lot of point choosing a 30 year old journeyman that will do a solid job but probably not make the next world cup as third choice. If we're being brutally honest that's where Shonert and Balmain are. Good club men but even with a big step forward following an introduction to international level (which is no way guaranteed) they'd still be at best third choice come the world cup behind Stuart and Sinckler.
Better to invest the time in the current best of the young batch at tighthead who you'll probably need post world cup. That's Heyes at the minute though Harper at Sale is worth keeping an eye on. Sadly Street and Painter haven't really delivered for their clubs though I think Painter's issue does tend to be staying fit.
Thinking about p/d's post, rather than selection issues, how the team unit performs against Scotland is indeed key. With that in mind, Borthwick's F and C (Fight and Clarity) reference absolutely highlights what is needed. What has been missing is identified. Encouraging players to believe in themselves and the system is vital. Leaving no doubt in their minds about what to do and how to do it sounds so obvious. 80 minutes of fierce physical application on top of clear minds and who knows? I'm optimistic.
As for selection, Farrell at 10, please. Accepting that he will have to start, please don't put him in the 12 shirt. I'd have JVP at 9 with Daly and OHC on the wings. Willis should be at 7. Tuilagi would not be in my 23.
Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Jan 17, 2023 8:47 am
As for selection, Farrell at 10, please. Accepting that he will have to start, please don't put him in the 12 shirt. I'd have JVP at 9 with Daly and OHC on the wings. Willis should be at 7. Tuilagi would not be in my 23.
Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Jan 17, 2023 8:47 am
As for selection, Farrell at 10, please. Accepting that he will have to start, please don't put him in the 12 shirt. I'd have JVP at 9 with Daly and OHC on the wings. Willis should be at 7. Tuilagi would not be in my 23.
FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Jan 17, 2023 7:52 am
Nic Shonert went off with an injury following a nasty head knock at the weekend. That probably stopped any suggestion he might make the squad.
It would depend on what's Borthwick's thoughts are, Cole is in great form and has a wealth of experience. Is there then a lot of point choosing a 30 year old journeyman that will do a solid job but probably not make the next world cup as third choice. If we're being brutally honest that's where Shonert and Balmain are. Good club men but even with a big step forward following an introduction to international level (which is no way guaranteed) they'd still be at best third choice come the world cup behind Stuart and Sinckler.
Better to invest the time in the current best of the young batch at tighthead who you'll probably need post world cup. That's Heyes at the minute though Harper at Sale is worth keeping an eye on. Sadly Street and Painter haven't really delivered for their clubs though I think Painter's issue does tend to be staying fit.
Harper looked really promising before his injury. How has been playing since his return? Schonert is probably the best scrummaging Eng qualified TH playing but he doesn’t do a great deal around the park in comparison.
FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Jan 17, 2023 7:52 am
Nic Shonert went off with an injury following a nasty head knock at the weekend. That probably stopped any suggestion he might make the squad.
It would depend on what's Borthwick's thoughts are, Cole is in great form and has a wealth of experience. Is there then a lot of point choosing a 30 year old journeyman that will do a solid job but probably not make the next world cup as third choice. If we're being brutally honest that's where Shonert and Balmain are. Good club men but even with a big step forward following an introduction to international level (which is no way guaranteed) they'd still be at best third choice come the world cup behind Stuart and Sinckler.
Better to invest the time in the current best of the young batch at tighthead who you'll probably need post world cup. That's Heyes at the minute though Harper at Sale is worth keeping an eye on. Sadly Street and Painter haven't really delivered for their clubs though I think Painter's issue does tend to be staying fit.
Schonert made quite a few squads early in Eddie's reign (and even a couple late in Lancaster's I think) but only ever got on the pitch against the Baabaas - it's probably too late for him now but there was a time he was easily one of the most consistent tightheads in the Prem who was unlucky to be around at a point where Cole and Sinckler were firmly embedded and also pretty durable. After the summer's fiasco it's worth pointing out Schickerling actually qualifies during the world cup so he'll be available for the 2024 6N (if he doesn't revert to Namibia for the tournament). I wonder if he was so inclined whether Borthwick would name him in the squad and wait for him to become eligible? Probably too much of a gamble if one of your main tightheads goes down with an injury.
SDHoneymonster wrote: ↑Tue Jan 17, 2023 1:54 pm
Another interesting development - Ruaridh McConnochie, he of the two England caps from the 2019 world cup, has just been named in Scotland's 6N squad.
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Jan 17, 2023 2:34 pm
Weird. I thought he's spent so long injured he was basically done? Is he even featuring for Bath?
I suspect his call-up is less to do with form and more the fact that he's Scottish-qualified, and therefore Toonie's pathological need to fling a cap at anyone who once enjoyed some shortbread or watched Jools Holland's Hootenanny has kicked in.
Which Tyler wrote: ↑Tue Jan 17, 2023 2:38 pm
He last played... two days ago...
All fit and firing, and he's probably 3rd choice on the wing for Bath, he's just rarely fit for long
His England career can probably be attributed to the fact that Eddie was desperate to unearth a bolter - remember that he was supposed to be England's bolt out of the blue, our Nehe Milner-Skudder, at the tournament. He ended up playing one game against the USA and that was it (in fairness, he had May, Daly, Watson and Nowell all in his way). Certainly a good player on his day but thanks to injuries that day isn't often enough anymore.
I'm not sure exactly what the point of this post is but it's much easier to appear as if I'm working if I'm typing things.
As far as I can see these are pretty much the only nailed-on selections from the squad.
1. Genge
2. George
3. Sinkler
4. Itoje
10/12. Farrell (c)
15. Steward
There's an argument for pairing our flair props with our actually-good-at-their-job props, but I think the Bristol pair are established and too far ahead of the others for now. Any takes on how deserving of a spot Bevan Rodd is?
5 & 6 - Very much dependant on how Lawes is viewed. I imagine we'll see 5. Hill 6. Lawes 19. Chessum, which I'm not too unhappy with, but I'd hope we'll find a better combo before the RWC. I don't particularly see where Isiekwe fits in unless we're looking at a very different approach.
7 - A shootout between Ben Curry, Jack Willis and Ben Earl, which in the absence of Tom Curry is a pretty nice problem to have. I'd like to see all of them (ideally Willis deployed at 6) but that's a matter of continuity really.
8 - Both Dombrant and Simmonds have underwhelmed so far in some respects, but neither have had especially linear/settled introductions for England. My sense is only one of them will make the cut long-term, with Vunipola available to be brought back in and an eye kept on Tom Willis. Though if Willis isn't making the 6 nations squad it might be fanciful to think he'd be brought in as a debutant in the summer.
9 - It's nice that he's looking at Mitchell I guess, certainly while Quirke is out, but I imagine he'll continue rotating the 2 Leicester options.
10 - Done to death already really. Dependant on a viable/trusted 12 option shifting Farrell back to fly-half. I'd love Kelly to be given a shot, and there's no reason Borthwick wouldn't be the guy to do it, but a big part of me is resigned (conditioned?) to expect to the Farrell at 12 compromise. That annoying sack of shit Andy Goode claims Nick Evans told him the Smith/Farrell axis doesn't work, prior to his England appointment, but who knows.
I guess I could settle for 10. Farrell 12. Tuilagi, while this new England side find their feet, as long as there was a bit more pace/guile outside? What I'd love to avoid is the pre-planned reshuffle every week at 55 minutes when Smith comes on. I think Marchant is absolute class, but isn't viewed to have the ballast for some. I'd say he punches well above his weight, but I'd be happy to see either him or Slade at 13 ahead of Marchant.
11 & 14 I hope Daly isn't being viewed as a centre. He seems to have come on a lot as a fullback, and it's great to have cover there within the squad, but like virtually everyone else on here want to see him at 11. His running on the weekend (yes I know it was from 15) reminded me of his early days at Wasps. Just pair him with someone fast who will break tackles and scare the opposition at least a little bit. Also I'd love to see what an attacking threat our restarts could become if we have both Daly and Marchant on the field - they are both unbelievably good at getting to their own kickoffs.
We can also look forward to the return of LCDC, Tom Curry and seeing whether Marler, VRR, Ribbans, Hill, Pearson, Vunipola, Quirke, Ford, Lawrence, Arundell can shake things up. It feels weird (and possibly naive) to be excited about watching England again. I watched a bit of Borthwick's press conference and he is the most uninteresting speaker I have ever heard, so I can go back to not caring about any of the pre/post match nonsense.
8 - Both Dombrant and Simmonds have underwhelmed so far in some respects, but neither have had especially linear/settled introductions for England. My sense is only one of them will make the cut long-term, with Vunipola available to be brought back in and an eye kept on Tom Willis. Though if Willis isn't making the 6 nations squad it might be fanciful to think he'd be brought in as a debutant in the
I’d like to see both Dombrandt and Simmonds included in starting XV - my preference is Dombrandt to play 8 and Simmonds to be played anywhere that can use his explosive pace and ball carrying to act as an “extra threequarter” - open to whether this is 6,7 or 12 tbh
Which Tyler wrote: ↑Tue Jan 17, 2023 2:38 pm
He last played... two days ago...
All fit and firing, and he's probably 3rd choice on the wing for Bath, he's just rarely fit for long
His England career can probably be attributed to the fact that Eddie was desperate to unearth a bolter - remember that he was supposed to be England's bolt out of the blue, our Nehe Milner-Skudder, at the tournament. He ended up playing one game against the USA and that was it (in fairness, he had May, Daly, Watson and Nowell all in his way). Certainly a good player on his day but thanks to injuries that day isn't often enough anymore.
Surely you're not suggesting Eddie did left field things for the sake of it, to make himself look like a maverick?
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Jan 17, 2023 4:11 pm
I watched a bit of Borthwick's press conference and he is the most uninteresting speaker I have ever heard, so I can go back to not caring about any of the pre/post match nonsense.
I think he'd prefer we all did that. I've heard said by a few somewhat exasperated media types that Borthwick is a great chat away from a microphone but as soon as you go to put something on record the mask comes down and you get nothing. It's straight out of the RFU interview training guide.
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Jan 17, 2023 4:11 pm
I watched a bit of Borthwick's press conference and he is the most uninteresting speaker I have ever heard, so I can go back to not caring about any of the pre/post match nonsense.
I think he'd prefer we all did that. I've heard said by a few somewhat exasperated media types that Borthwick is a great chat away from a microphone but as soon as you go to put something on record the mask comes down and you get nothing. It's straight out of the RFU interview training guide.
It'll be a nice change from the "awww look mate *utter bs*" template for a bit, but not sure how long it'll wash for if things go off track.
FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Jan 17, 2023 7:52 am
Nic Shonert went off with an injury following a nasty head knock at the weekend. That probably stopped any suggestion he might make the squad.
It would depend on what's Borthwick's thoughts are, Cole is in great form and has a wealth of experience. Is there then a lot of point choosing a 30 year old journeyman that will do a solid job but probably not make the next world cup as third choice. If we're being brutally honest that's where Shonert and Balmain are. Good club men but even with a big step forward following an introduction to international level (which is no way guaranteed) they'd still be at best third choice come the world cup behind Stuart and Sinckler.
Better to invest the time in the current best of the young batch at tighthead who you'll probably need post world cup. That's Heyes at the minute though Harper at Sale is worth keeping an eye on. Sadly Street and Painter haven't really delivered for their clubs though I think Painter's issue does tend to be staying fit.
Harper looked really promising before his injury. How has been playing since his return? Schonert is probably the best scrummaging Eng qualified TH playing but he doesn’t do a great deal around the park in comparison.
Harper was back playing for Sale at the weekend. Long old shift in the end what with Schonert lasting only a few minutes. He's not a call up ready yet but post the world cup with more experience maybe.
Schonert is a solid but uninspiring option. At the time he was called up he was entering his prime years and there was hope he'd develop a more all round game that never emerged. Having a tighthead that can reliably hold his side of the scrum up isn't the worst third choice squad option.
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Mon Jan 16, 2023 10:17 pm
Is Lawes at lock really a thing anymore? He’s barely played there for 2 years hasn’t he? I guess it’s only really the scrum that is the concern, but the most recent SA pumping must surely still be fresh in the mind in that regard.
How much heft does Chessum offer? Ribbans or Tizard to push Hill would have made a lot more sense to me than Isiekwe.
Based on Steve's panegyric of Lawes in the press conference, he's playing somewhere, and I'd prefer us to use our plethora of actual flankers. He's not played there for 2 years, but I'd still rather him at 5 than the rugby-IQ-dimwit of Hill.
Puja
I think you should wait to see Hill play under Borthwick's coaching before condemning him so totally. I think he is half of the best lock pairing available BUT he and Itoje need the clarity that Borthwick is declaring as much as/more than any other part of the team. Yes, Hill has dropped some clangers but I suspect frustration was a factor. How a coaching crew could achieve so little progress in Itoje (arguably he has gone backwards in the last three years) is astounding. He ought to be the best lock in the world by now and captain. IMO, all the signs in Hill's play indicated that he was surprised to not get more guidance/help from being paired with Itoje and charged about over-compensating. If he shows no improvement in a game or two he should be dumped. However, I'd not be surprised if he and Itoje both perform at a significantly higher level.
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Mon Jan 16, 2023 10:17 pm
Is Lawes at lock really a thing anymore? He’s barely played there for 2 years hasn’t he? I guess it’s only really the scrum that is the concern, but the most recent SA pumping must surely still be fresh in the mind in that regard.
How much heft does Chessum offer? Ribbans or Tizard to push Hill would have made a lot more sense to me than Isiekwe.
Based on Steve's panegyric of Lawes in the press conference, he's playing somewhere, and I'd prefer us to use our plethora of actual flankers. He's not played there for 2 years, but I'd still rather him at 5 than the rugby-IQ-dimwit of Hill.
Puja
I think you should wait to see Hill play under Borthwick's coaching before condemning him so totally. I think he is half of the best lock pairing available BUT he and Itoje need the clarity that Borthwick is declaring as much as/more than any other part of the team. Yes, Hill has dropped some clangers but I suspect frustration was a factor. How a coaching crew could achieve so little progress in Itoje (arguably he has gone backwards in the last three years) is astounding. He ought to be the best lock in the world by now and captain. IMO, all the signs in Hill's play indicated that he was surprised to not get more guidance/help from being paired with Itoje and charged about over-compensating. If he shows no improvement in a game or two he should be dumped. However, I'd not be surprised if he and Itoje both perform at a significantly higher level.
That's not an unfair point at all. I remain dubious that Hill has enough rugby-related braincells to improve, given some of his previous on-pitch idiocy, but I'll trust Borthwick's selection if he picks him.
Agreed on Itoje. He should be dominating the world game, given where he was in 2019 and the amount of untapped potential left in him, but he's gone backwards. I wouldn't be sure that's all down to Eddie, but I'm intrigued to see if he can start to climb back up.
