Squad Depth - What have we learned?

[Beasties]

If Ford is well short of peak form, why is he in the squad at all?

OHC didn't get recalled to the team despite recovering from injury.

Not convinced about Stanley Baldwin as a selector, any more than Eddie tbh.

After RWC, Jones discarded those whom he judged to have peaked: Vunipola x 2, George, Tuiilagi, Ford, Youngs etc. That was his last-chance saloon, a re-build ambition with some merit. He lacked the skill and courage to follow it through.

In all the 'no world class players' debate, where we are now is picking some of those same limited players knowing that they cannot get any better than they have already been. Quite simply, I'd rather we had started the re-build and stuck with it.

SB had to select for the 6N. Now he has no alternative but to maintain the short-termism for the RWC. Hopefully, his squad will show a little imagination but his job must start afterwards.

So far, some of his younger selections - Dombrandt, OHC, Arundel - have not come off. Willis, Chessum and Ludlam (to an extent) have. He inherited JVP who has not moved on. He picked Mitchell (largely ignored by Jones) and he has added something.

On SB's overall selection skills, I agree the jury is out. His main error was Dombrandt. Who knows where T Willis might now be had he been given those same 5 games?

Then, there is Smith. The real deal or not up to it at the top level? I'd start developing Atkinson as soon as the RWC is over.

Can’t help thinking T Willis and Mercer are being somewhat bigged up as the silver bullet to our no.8 selection before either actually playing a test match and it reminds me of when N Hughes was similarly being preemptively bigged up.

Absolutely no doubt in my mind that T Willis would take to int’l rugby like a duck to water, if given a chance. Will it happen before the WC starts? Who knows. He has no USP that has to be pandered to by the gameplan, he makes yards for fun and is relentless for 80 minutes. If Wasps hadn’t been trying to accommodate both him and Barbeary I’m sure he’d have had caps well before now.

[stepsider]

Ford isn't close to back to peak form so makes sense not to select him.

OHC was dropped only because he was injured.

The Smith, Farrell, Farrell, Smith, Farrell selection I think was an attempt at horses for courses selection that didn't really work.

If Ford is well short of peak form, why is he in the squad at all?

OHC didn't get recalled to the team despite recovering from injury.

Not convinced about Stanley Baldwin as a selector, any more than Eddie tbh.

After RWC, Jones discarded those whom he judged to have peaked: Vunipola x 2, George, Tuiilagi, Ford, Youngs etc. That was his last-chance saloon, a re-build ambition with some merit. He lacked the skill and courage to follow it through.

In all the 'no world class players' debate, where we are now is picking some of those same limited players knowing that they cannot get any better than they have already been. Quite simply, I'd rather we had started the re-build and stuck with it.

SB had to select for the 6N. Now he has no alternative but to maintain the short-termism for the RWC. Hopefully, his squad will show a little imagination but his job must start afterwards.

So far, some of his younger selections - Dombrandt, OHC, Arundel - have not come off. Willis, Chessum and Ludlam (to an extent) have. He inherited JVP who has not moved on. He picked Mitchell (largely ignored by Jones) and he has added something.

On SB's overall selection skills, I agree the jury is out. His main error was Dombrandt. Who knows where T Willis might now be had he been given those same 5 games?

Then, there is Smith. The real deal or not up to it at the top level? I'd start developing Atkinson as soon as the RWC is over.

Bit early to say that Arundell hasn't come off. Sure, his first start wasn't great, but he's looked sharp when actually getting a decent pass. Same with OHC - hardly got the ball - there's a tendency to write people off without a fair chance.

Lawrence was another who suffered from lack of involvement when first selected.

Youngs, Farrell etc have had dozens of poor games and still been picked (despite RR of course).

Agree re Atkinson but he's not getting much Tigers game time due to presence of Pollard. Would be good to get Fin Smith more involved before the Scots nab him.

[Oakboy]

If Ford is well short of peak form, why is he in the squad at all?

OHC didn't get recalled to the team despite recovering from injury.

Not convinced about Stanley Baldwin as a selector, any more than Eddie tbh.

After RWC, Jones discarded those whom he judged to have peaked: Vunipola x 2, George, Tuiilagi, Ford, Youngs etc. That was his last-chance saloon, a re-build ambition with some merit. He lacked the skill and courage to follow it through.

In all the 'no world class players' debate, where we are now is picking some of those same limited players knowing that they cannot get any better than they have already been. Quite simply, I'd rather we had started the re-build and stuck with it.

SB had to select for the 6N. Now he has no alternative but to maintain the short-termism for the RWC. Hopefully, his squad will show a little imagination but his job must start afterwards.

So far, some of his younger selections - Dombrandt, OHC, Arundel - have not come off. Willis, Chessum and Ludlam (to an extent) have. He inherited JVP who has not moved on. He picked Mitchell (largely ignored by Jones) and he has added something.

On SB's overall selection skills, I agree the jury is out. His main error was Dombrandt. Who knows where T Willis might now be had he been given those same 5 games?

Then, there is Smith. The real deal or not up to it at the top level? I'd start developing Atkinson as soon as the RWC is over.

Bit early to say that Arundell hasn't come off. Sure, his first start wasn't great, but he's looked sharp when actually getting a decent pass. Same with OHC - hardly got the ball - there's a tendency to write people off without a fair chance.

Lawrence was another who suffered from lack of involvement when first selected.

Youngs, Farrell etc have had dozens of poor games and still been picked (despite RR of course).

Agree re Atkinson but he's not getting much Tigers game time due to presence of Pollard. Would be good to get Fin Smith more involved before the Scots nab him.

It's interesting to judge Arundel or OHC. Did team rules stop them coming inside looking for work? Did they do their utmost to get involved or were they content to stay put and not risk making mistakes? I haven't a clue. Two anecdotal comments make me wonder, though. First, Nowell, for all the justified criticism, rarely goes 80 minutes without significant involvement. Second, Ashton, for all the justified criticism, scored try after try by provoking Farrell with unavoidable running lines nowhere near his nominal wing position.

[Oakboy]

Hooker is a key position and Sugar Babe's choices are rather thin on the ground.
George is indisputably first choice, but then who is there who's proven at Test level?
LCD will go to the World Cup and will then disappear to Montpellier; Walker has been on the bench but hardly used; Blamire had a few caps a couple of season's ago; Singleton too; McGuigan is one who maybe deserves a chance.
Are there any others in the pipeline?

What happened to the young guy that was at Sale? Ogden or something like that. Every time I saw him play he looked special.

Curtis Langdon? He's playing over in France having joined Wuss for more game time at very much the wrong time. He'll be at Saints for next season.

That's him. See what your young memory can do!! Bloody good player, I thought, every time I saw him.

[Oakboy]

After RWC, Jones discarded those whom he judged to have peaked: Vunipola x 2, George, Tuiilagi, Ford, Youngs etc. That was his last-chance saloon, a re-build ambition with some merit. He lacked the skill and courage to follow it through.

In all the 'no world class players' debate, where we are now is picking some of those same limited players knowing that they cannot get any better than they have already been. Quite simply, I'd rather we had started the re-build and stuck with it.

SB had to select for the 6N. Now he has no alternative but to maintain the short-termism for the RWC. Hopefully, his squad will show a little imagination but his job must start afterwards.

So far, some of his younger selections - Dombrandt, OHC, Arundel - have not come off. Willis, Chessum and Ludlam (to an extent) have. He inherited JVP who has not moved on. He picked Mitchell (largely ignored by Jones) and he has added something.

On SB's overall selection skills, I agree the jury is out. His main error was Dombrandt. Who knows where T Willis might now be had he been given those same 5 games?

Then, there is Smith. The real deal or not up to it at the top level? I'd start developing Atkinson as soon as the RWC is over.

Can’t help thinking T Willis and Mercer are being somewhat bigged up as the silver bullet to our no.8 selection before either actually playing a test match and it reminds me of when N Hughes was similarly being preemptively bigged up.

Absolutely no doubt in my mind that T Willis would take to int’l rugby like a duck to water, if given a chance. Will it happen before the WC starts? Who knows. He has no USP that has to be pandered to by the gameplan, he makes yards for fun and is relentless for 80 minutes. If Wasps hadn’t been trying to accommodate both him and Barbeary I’m sure he’d have had caps well before now.

Exactly. It's not a case of wishful thinking or any of that bollix. Again, ask the opposition who they'd rather face, Dombrandt or T Willis. The former is no 80 minute man. The latter most definitely is. He's as good as his brother which is a fairly good indication of standard. I've got no problem with SB making a judgement call and choosing Dombrandt. I applaud the extended run once he'd made the call. Now, he needs to admit he chose the wrong one and put matters right.

I've never advocated Mercer.

[Mikey Brown]

Why is it we think Wasps put Willis on the bench or at 6 to accommodate Barbeary so much if he is that good? You could argue that's like Doris playing 6 to allow Conan playing at 8, but it seemed like he was second choice to both Shields and Barbeary towards the end.

Don't get me wrong I think he looks fantastic most of the times I've seen him play, but it did seem odd he was losing out to Barbeary who seemed to be over his initial blistering run of form. Was it just general rotation and I'm remembering it wrong?

Anyone watching him frequently for Bordeux(?)?

Why are you a Never-Mercer out of interest?

[Mellsblue]

Don’t forget that Dors has championed Nathan Hughes for the no8 shirt, too. The man can’t be trusted

[Oakboy]

Don’t forget that Dors has championed Nathan Hughes for the no8 shirt, too. The man can’t be trusted

Guilty as charged. I still think he could have been better used. I suppose that sums up a head-coach's issues - pick the right bloke and get the best out of him. Or not.

[Beasties]

Don’t forget that Dors has championed Nathan Hughes for the no8 shirt, too. The man can’t be trusted

Guilty as charged. I still think he could have been better used. I suppose that sums up a head-coach's issues - pick the right bloke and get the best out of him. Or not.

Hughes looked worthy of a place right up until Eddie got odd ideas and made him lose a ton of weight, wanting him at 6 for reasons best known to himself. It was no coincidence that Hughes disappeared as a force once the weight went. Something like his previous form returned when he regained the weight at Bristol ages later.

Tbf to Blackett, T Willis was being absolutely flogged for months before Barbeary returned to the team as backrow was an injury wasteland for Wasps at the time. It probably seemed like a good idea to give him a bit of a rest while getting Barbeary back up to full fitness. Problem was, Barbeary wasn’t doing a lot for weeks other than blocking the 8 shirt, annoyed a lot of Wasps fans that did.

[francoisfou]

Contrary to the situation at hooker, Stevie Blunder IS spoilt for choice at 8 with Tom Willis and Zach Mercer in his World Cup squad, and maybe Barbeary too, once he's fit.

[Banquo]

Stevie Blunder. Close the board.

[Banquo]

but seriously, we have no idea how Tom Willis would play at intl level- he's been an in and out good prem player, Barbeary was picked ahead of him despite not actually being very good at 8 (no blame, but he was learning to play that position on the fly in senior rugby), and Mercer is very good in a specific role...but again, not been seen intly for 4.5 years!

On Hughes,I accept the weight argument-ish, but he just looked like he lost heart far too easily when things went against him intly; like Malins, imo, its about 'ticker'. No basis other than observation tho.

[Banquo]

Don’t forget that Dors has championed Nathan Hughes for the no8 shirt, too. The man can’t be trusted

Guilty as charged. I still think he could have been better used. I suppose that sums up a head-coach's issues - pick the right bloke and get the best out of him. Or not.

....not possible in all cases, no matter how much you try. Some players- usually frustratingly very talented- are just nobs and only interested in themselves not the team...we all know them, and eventually they detract from the team because they hog all the coaches' time and attention. Woodward was very good at identifying them.

[francoisfou]

but seriously, we have no idea how Tom Willis would play at intl level- he's been an in and out good prem player, Barbeary was picked ahead of him despite not actually being very good at 8 (no blame, but he was learning to play that position on the fly in senior rugby), and Mercer is very good in a specific role...but again, not been seen intly for 4.5 years!

On Hughes,I accept the weight argument-ish, but he just looked like he lost heart far too easily when things went against him intly; like Malins, imo, its about 'ticker'. No basis other than observation tho.

The August Tests will be the only opportunity to see how Tom Willis and Mercer shape up. Let's hope Stevie B...... picks them!

[Banquo]

but seriously, we have no idea how Tom Willis would play at intl level- he's been an in and out good prem player, Barbeary was picked ahead of him despite not actually being very good at 8 (no blame, but he was learning to play that position on the fly in senior rugby), and Mercer is very good in a specific role...but again, not been seen intly for 4.5 years!

On Hughes,I accept the weight argument-ish, but he just looked like he lost heart far too easily when things went against him intly; like Malins, imo, its about 'ticker'. No basis other than observation tho.

The August Tests will be the only opportunity to see how Tom Willis and Mercer shape up. Let's hope Stevie B...... picks them!

Trouble is, they will tell us the square root of nothing, so inevitably a punt.

[Oakboy]

but seriously, we have no idea how Tom Willis would play at intl level- he's been an in and out good prem player, Barbeary was picked ahead of him despite not actually being very good at 8 (no blame, but he was learning to play that position on the fly in senior rugby), and Mercer is very good in a specific role...but again, not been seen intly for 4.5 years!

On Hughes,I accept the weight argument-ish, but he just looked like he lost heart far too easily when things went against him intly; like Malins, imo, its about 'ticker'. No basis other than observation tho.

The August Tests will be the only opportunity to see how Tom Willis and Mercer shape up. Let's hope Stevie B...... picks them!

Trouble is, they will tell us the square root of nothing, so inevitably a punt.

Would you prefer to stick with Dombrandt or recall Billy V? Just asking. I still think Willis, Curry and Willis is our best potential back row. I can remember, way back, claiming that Jack Willis was our best flanker and being told he's done nothing yet. Now, he's our best flanker, arguably.

[Mellsblue]

but seriously, we have no idea how Tom Willis would play at intl level- he's been an in and out good prem player, Barbeary was picked ahead of him despite not actually being very good at 8 (no blame, but he was learning to play that position on the fly in senior rugby), and Mercer is very good in a specific role...but again, not been seen intly for 4.5 years!

On Hughes,I accept the weight argument-ish, but he just looked like he lost heart far too easily when things went against him intly; like Malins, imo, its about 'ticker'. No basis other than observation tho.

The August Tests will be the only opportunity to see how Tom Willis and Mercer shape up. Let's hope Stevie B...... picks them!

S
so inevitably a punt.

Not sure whether this is a comment on the no8 position or England’s plan in ‘attack’

[Spiffy]

At the moment it is not quite clear what SB wants to do (this is so for some other coaches too e.g. Gatland.)
Broadly speaking - does he envisage a way that the wants his team to play, then look around for players who can fit the bill. Or does he identify the best, creative, influential players available to him, then develop a strategy based around their inherent strengths. It is obviously not quite that black and white since successful teams have to be able to adapt their tactics, but what's the actual starting point.

[Puja]

Some players- usually frustratingly very talented- are just nobs and only interested in themselves not the team...we all know them, and eventually they detract from the team because they hog all the coaches' time and attention. Woodward was very good at identifying them.

Set a thief to catch a thief...

Puja

[fivepointer]

Problem SB has is that i imagine his preferred back row would have had T Curry and Lawes in it. Is that still the case after the 6N?
I think it would be so what does he do at 8. Leave Dombrandt, move Ludlam across (who emerged with some credit) or plump for someone new?
He has 4 warm up games in August plus a fair bit of training time*. When does the T14 finish so he can include Mercer and T Willis?
I know head coaches get paid the big bucks but trying to manage this whole situation is a nightmare.

* Looking at the fixture schedule the Prem finishes on 6 May. The SF's are a week later and the final is on the 27th. Europe finishes on 20 May. Players will need a break of, what, 4-6 weeks?

[Banquo]

The August Tests will be the only opportunity to see how Tom Willis and Mercer shape up. Let's hope Stevie B...... picks them!

Trouble is, they will tell us the square root of nothing, so inevitably a punt.

Would you prefer to stick with Dombrandt or recall Billy V? Just asking. I still think Willis, Curry and Willis is our best potential back row. I can remember, way back, claiming that Jack Willis was our best flanker and being told he's done nothing yet. Now, he's our best flanker, arguably.

No idea! And it definitely wasn't me on Jack Willis, he's always looked outstanding at prem level, and frustrating that injuries de-railed him a bit.

Potentially....is easy to say. I just think Tom Willis is good prem, but no idea til he plays- his brother though always had a distinctive USP....but even then, disappeared v France (along with everyone else). I don't think you can say...'he's our best flanker' until he can sustain performances (and even then, he's great at jackalling, but Tom Curry still has a body of all round work etc). You've claimed lots of stuff, old chap

[Banquo]

Some players- usually frustratingly very talented- are just nobs and only interested in themselves not the team...we all know them, and eventually they detract from the team because they hog all the coaches' time and attention. Woodward was very good at identifying them.

Set a thief to catch a thief...

Puja

I don't think SCW is a nob tbh, though he may come over as such. He was great at coaching courses I was on.

[francoisfou]

but seriously, we have no idea how Tom Willis would play at intl level- he's been an in and out good prem player, Barbeary was picked ahead of him despite not actually being very good at 8 (no blame, but he was learning to play that position on the fly in senior rugby), and Mercer is very good in a specific role...but again, not been seen intly for 4.5 years!

On Hughes,I accept the weight argument-ish, but he just looked like he lost heart far too easily when things went against him intly; like Malins, imo, its about 'ticker'. No basis other than observation tho.

The August Tests will be the only opportunity to see how Tom Willis and Mercer shape up. Let's hope Stevie B...... picks them!

Trouble is, they will tell us the square root of nothing, so inevitably a punt.

If there weren't any Tests, you're right that we'd know the square root of fa, but four Tests will at least give the players a chance to show us their worth.

[Oakboy]

Trouble is, they will tell us the square root of nothing, so inevitably a punt.

Would you prefer to stick with Dombrandt or recall Billy V? Just asking. I still think Willis, Curry and Willis is our best potential back row. I can remember, way back, claiming that Jack Willis was our best flanker and being told he's done nothing yet. Now, he's our best flanker, arguably.

No idea! And it definitely wasn't me on Jack Willis, he's always looked outstanding at prem level, and frustrating that injuries de-railed him a bit.

Potentially....is easy to say. I just think Tom Willis is good prem, but no idea til he plays- his brother though always had a distinctive USP....but even then, disappeared v France (along with everyone else). I don't think you can say...'he's our best flanker' until he can sustain performances (and even then, he's great at jackalling, but Tom Curry still has a body of all round work etc). You've claimed lots of stuff, old chap

I get far more wrong than right. I'd back my judgement on TW, though.

[Banquo]

The August Tests will be the only opportunity to see how Tom Willis and Mercer shape up. Let's hope Stevie B...... picks them!

Trouble is, they will tell us the square root of nothing, so inevitably a punt.

If there weren't any Tests, you're right that we'd know the square root of fa, but four Tests will at least give the players a chance to show us their worth.

are they real Tests or just warm ups?