RugbyRebels

I love the idea of Thacker playing for England.

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Fri May 19, 2023 11:23 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Fri May 19, 2023 10:36 amRobinson is injured and Ewels is in SA isn't he?

Ewels' season ends June 10 IIRC
Of course, it's possible that his contract may not run that deep either, if he's wanted for England squads.
As far as I can tell though, he hasn't actually played for the Bulls yet (ETA: Found it - 3 starts then one off the bench; gone the distance in 1 match; which has the appearance of deliberate rotation, given his partners).

From Bath, I'd be looking for
Obano, Dunn, Stuart
Ewels
Hill, Underhill
Spencer, Lawrence, Cokanasiga

To make the extended England squad. If the likes of McNally, Barbeary, Bailey, Ojomo, DeGlanville get a look at the training requirements, I'd be delighted, but very surprised.

I completely forgot the existence of Ted Hill today and was trying to work out why you were introducing Underhill like James Bond.

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Fri May 19, 2023 12:19 pmI completely forgot the existence of Ted Hill today and was trying to work out why you were introducing Underhill like James Bond.

The not-so silent assassin, who's so good at the secretive stuff that literally everybody knows his name.
These days though, he tends to leave the field just as battered as his opponent.

Margin_Walker wrote: ↑Fri May 19, 2023 11:03 am On TH, someone like Fasogbon is miles off even an apprentice role in a camp like this.

But if you're looking left field I'd have Chawatama in there to look at in the wider squad. Does little round the park, but can scrum better than any TH we've had in the last decade or so. Just doesn't get folded. Was absolutely fine against a stacked Stormers front row in both HC games this season.

Always think Chawatama looks very solid in the set piece. I assumed he wasnt EQ?

fivepointer wrote: ↑Fri May 19, 2023 1:09 pm

Margin_Walker wrote: ↑Fri May 19, 2023 11:03 am On TH, someone like Fasogbon is miles off even an apprentice role in a camp like this.

But if you're looking left field I'd have Chawatama in there to look at in the wider squad. Does little round the park, but can scrum better than any TH we've had in the last decade or so. Just doesn't get folded. Was absolutely fine against a stacked Stormers front row in both HC games this season.

Always think Chawatama looks very solid in the set piece. I assumed he wasnt EQ?

He should be. Been in England since he was 15 and I'm pretty sure he never appeared for Zimbabwe at any point.

I mean he's not realistically going to be involved, but he's an alternative 'we carry him for his scrum' option to Cole.

Murley surely is involved...

Could Launch be available?

Stom wrote: ↑Fri May 19, 2023 3:38 pm Murley surely is involved...

He's already in the EPS (I know, easy to forget given his lack of actual involvement), so I hadn't included him on the lists.

Puja

jimKRFC wrote: ↑Fri May 19, 2023 12:03 pm Kloska (Tight head) and Thacker would be my suggestions from Bristol.

Thacker has been called up Eddie Jones for the Baabaa's v World XV game.

Nic Dolly, Tom West, Jack Maunder, Adam Radwan and Alex Waller also in the Baabaas squad.

Marcus Street is in the World XV.

Andrea Pinchen also not that impressed with the RFU. Not the best idea to act in this manner with the CEO of a club that historically provides both players and coaches regularly to the England set up.

From the Mirror.

Andrea Pinchen, Tigers’ chief executive, said: “You lose your head coach and your defence coach halfway through what is a disjointed season anyway. Undoubtedly, it’s going to impact you.

“When you go into a club and take pretty much the entirety of its coaching team and IP (intellectual property), it impacts your ability to trade, it impacts you financially, your sponsors.

“For your home nation to be doing that to one of its clubs is hard to swallow. We’ve needed the emotional and financial support of everybody in and around Leicester Tigers to get through this. Without that we could have had real problems.”

Pinchen claims Leicester were so supportive of Borthwick’s England ambitions that last summer they actually contacted the RFU to propose a timetable to him succeeding Eddie Jones.

“I was mindful we needed to start our succession planning, working backwards from post-World Cup,” she said. “They seemed to agree. It was all very amicable, at that stage”.

Then came England’s awful autumn and on December 6 Jones was sacked. RFU boss Bill Sweeney called Pinchen who gave him permission to approach Borthwick.

“All the way through what I was trying to do was make sure Leicester weren't losing out financially because somebody else's plans hadn't worked out for them.”

“The negotiations went backwards and forwards with Bill and myself,” she said. “It's fair to say at times it got a little heated on both sides.

She had seen two clubs “go pop”, leaving Leicester without a home game for seven weeks and blowing a £700,000 hole in their revenue stream. She was not about to just roll over - but was taken aback by what she encountered.

“There were a lot of unnecessary conversations around ‘there's no way we'll get to the money that you want’,” she said. “And even ‘You'll have to tell Steve you've stood in his way’.

“When you negotiate with somebody it's purely business. Trying to play people off, pull people’s strings and use emotional connotations.. I don't see why you would do that. I don’t see the need.”

Will Launch, Willis and Willis be invited to any camps?

Peej wrote: ↑Fri May 19, 2023 8:51 pm Will Launch, Willis and Willis be invited to any camps?

Well, the Willese are affected by French rules, so they don't have to be released by their clubs until a later date (which I believe is the end of July? Not sure). They could have agreements with their clubs to go sooner, I guess, but as it stands, they're at a disadvantage.

Not a clue on Launch though.

Puja

FKAS wrote: ↑Fri May 19, 2023 8:41 pm

jimKRFC wrote: ↑Fri May 19, 2023 12:03 pm Kloska (Tight head) and Thacker would be my suggestions from Bristol.

Thacker has been called up Eddie Jones for the Baabaa's v World XV game.

Nic Dolly, Tom West, Jack Maunder, Adam Radwan and Alex Waller also in the Baabaas squad.

Marcus Street is in the World XV.

Just reading an article today that Borthwick has contacted 70 players to let them know that they're in consideration for the training squads and that that has compromised Eddie Jones's selection, as anyone involved in this match won't be available for 5 weeks after it (so after the Leicester and Saints players are available).

Not shocking for most of those names, but it's a bit of a surprise that Radwan apparently isn't in the top 70 players in the country. Not that I think he'd make the final 33, but it is a surprise that he's not likely to get even onto the longlist to try out while the semi-finalists are away. Or, maybe he's decided that he won't get in either way and would prefer to play for the Barbarians.

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 7:42 am

Peej wrote: ↑Fri May 19, 2023 8:51 pm Will Launch, Willis and Willis be invited to any camps?

Well, the Willese are affected by French rules, so they don't have to be released by their clubs until a later date (which I believe is the end of July? Not sure). They could have agreements with their clubs to go sooner, I guess, but as it stands, they're at a disadvantage.

Not a clue on Launch though.

Puja

Don't contracts normally expire at the end of June and start from 1st July?

In which case Tom Willis will be available. Jack I'm sure had the sense to agree with Toulouse he'd be available this summer. It's not like he'll be doing much for the club in July.

Puja wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 8:47 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Fri May 19, 2023 8:41 pm

jimKRFC wrote: ↑Fri May 19, 2023 12:03 pm Kloska (Tight head) and Thacker would be my suggestions from Bristol.

Thacker has been called up Eddie Jones for the Baabaa's v World XV game.

Nic Dolly, Tom West, Jack Maunder, Adam Radwan and Alex Waller also in the Baabaas squad.

Marcus Street is in the World XV.

Just reading an article today that Borthwick has contacted 70 players to let them know that they're in consideration for the training squads and that that has compromised Eddie Jones's selection, as anyone involved in this match won't be available for 5 weeks after it (so after the Leicester and Saints players are available).

Not shocking for most of those names, but it's a bit of a surprise that Radwan apparently isn't in the top 70 players in the country. Not that I think he'd make the final 33, but it is a surprise that he's not likely to get even onto the longlist to try out while the semi-finalists are away. Or, maybe he's decided that he won't get in either way and would prefer to play for the Barbarians.

Puja

Slightly disappointed that Tom West doesn't make the long list. He's been in good form.

Very odd that Radwan isn't going to be given a shot at the training squad. What's he done to annoy Borthwick, not practice his kicking or something?

FKAS wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 9:13 am

Puja wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 7:42 am

Peej wrote: ↑Fri May 19, 2023 8:51 pm Will Launch, Willis and Willis be invited to any camps?

Well, the Willese are affected by French rules, so they don't have to be released by their clubs until a later date (which I believe is the end of July? Not sure). They could have agreements with their clubs to go sooner, I guess, but as it stands, they're at a disadvantage.

Not a clue on Launch though.

Puja

Don't contracts normally expire at the end of June and start from 1st July?

In which case Tom Willis will be available. Jack I'm sure had the sense to agree with Toulouse he'd be available this summer. It's not like he'll be doing much for the club in July.

Good point on Tom - my brain had forgotten that he was coming back to England. Not a scoob when he'd be free then - is he covered under the England-based EPS rule that he's only available after 5 weeks of holiday (in which case, he'll be available with the Sarries and Sale players) or is he available from first week of July?

FKAS wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 9:14 am

Puja wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 8:47 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Fri May 19, 2023 8:41 pm

Nic Dolly, Tom West, Jack Maunder, Adam Radwan and Alex Waller also in the Baabaas squad.

Marcus Street is in the World XV.

Just reading an article today that Borthwick has contacted 70 players to let them know that they're in consideration for the training squads and that that has compromised Eddie Jones's selection, as anyone involved in this match won't be available for 5 weeks after it (so after the Leicester and Saints players are available).

Not shocking for most of those names, but it's a bit of a surprise that Radwan apparently isn't in the top 70 players in the country. Not that I think he'd make the final 33, but it is a surprise that he's not likely to get even onto the longlist to try out while the semi-finalists are away. Or, maybe he's decided that he won't get in either way and would prefer to play for the Barbarians.

Puja

Slightly disappointed that Tom West doesn't make the long list. He's been in good form.

Very odd that Radwan isn't going to be given a shot at the training squad. What's he done to annoy Borthwick, not practice his kicking or something?

West a tad unlucky, but more so that we have such a surfeit of looseheads. By the time he's available, we'd have Genge, VRR, Obano already emplaced for a week and the prospect of Rodd and Mako coming up in a fortnight, so I don't see him as being massively necessary (plus it'd only delay his entrance by a week if we have an injury crisis, whereas for Radwan, this is putting him three weeks behind where he'd otherwise be able to train).

Puja

FKAS wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 9:14 am

Puja wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 8:47 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Fri May 19, 2023 8:41 pm

Nic Dolly, Tom West, Jack Maunder, Adam Radwan and Alex Waller also in the Baabaas squad.

Marcus Street is in the World XV.

Just reading an article today that Borthwick has contacted 70 players to let them know that they're in consideration for the training squads and that that has compromised Eddie Jones's selection, as anyone involved in this match won't be available for 5 weeks after it (so after the Leicester and Saints players are available).

Not shocking for most of those names, but it's a bit of a surprise that Radwan apparently isn't in the top 70 players in the country. Not that I think he'd make the final 33, but it is a surprise that he's not likely to get even onto the longlist to try out while the semi-finalists are away. Or, maybe he's decided that he won't get in either way and would prefer to play for the Barbarians.

Puja

Slightly disappointed that Tom West doesn't make the long list. He's been in good form.

Very odd that Radwan isn't going to be given a shot at the training squad. What's he done to annoy Borthwick, not practice his kicking or something?

Or maybe Radwan is just behind...

Watson, Malins, May, Daly, Murley, OHC, Arundell, Freeman, Lynagh...I think that's fair. He's not demonstrably better than any of those players.

Stom wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 10:25 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 9:14 am

Puja wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 8:47 am

Just reading an article today that Borthwick has contacted 70 players to let them know that they're in consideration for the training squads and that that has compromised Eddie Jones's selection, as anyone involved in this match won't be available for 5 weeks after it (so after the Leicester and Saints players are available).

Not shocking for most of those names, but it's a bit of a surprise that Radwan apparently isn't in the top 70 players in the country. Not that I think he'd make the final 33, but it is a surprise that he's not likely to get even onto the longlist to try out while the semi-finalists are away. Or, maybe he's decided that he won't get in either way and would prefer to play for the Barbarians.

Puja

Slightly disappointed that Tom West doesn't make the long list. He's been in good form.

Very odd that Radwan isn't going to be given a shot at the training squad. What's he done to annoy Borthwick, not practice his kicking or something?

Or maybe Radwan is just behind...

Watson, Malins, May, Daly, Murley, OHC, Arundell, Freeman, Lynagh...I think that's fair. He's not demonstrably better than any of those players.

I'd question Lynagh, but even then, you're right that that's still a fairly solid list in front of him. Good point, well made.

Puja

I'd put Radwan comfortably ahead of Lynagh and May, hes a better winger than Malins and quicker than anyone bar Arundell. When a fair number of these players wont be available early on it is a bit odd that he's not going to be looked at.

fivepointer wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 11:06 am I'd put Radwan comfortably ahead of Lynagh and May, hes a better winger than Malins and quicker than anyone bar Arundell. When a fair number of these players wont be available early on it is a bit odd that he's not going to be looked at.

If you're talking about "Who do I want to receive good attacking ball with a little bit of space?" then I'd agree with you. However, there's a good deal more to being an international winger than that (and that's assuming we're going to use them for more than chasing box-kicks, which isn't a given right now) and I would have a fully fit May ahead of him every day of the week.

To go with something less controversial, it does appear as if Strong Badman rates Nowell above Radwan as well, as he was a player noted as being in the frame for Eddie's Barbarians who was not available for selection. I think the board probably has a united opinion on that selection call.

Puja

fivepointer wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 11:06 am I'd put Radwan comfortably ahead of Lynagh and May, hes a better winger than Malins and quicker than anyone bar Arundell. When a fair number of these players wont be available early on it is a bit odd that he's not going to be looked at.

He's a better winger and future bet than many on that list. Thorley has also looked in good nick following his return.

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 12:16 pm

fivepointer wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 11:06 am I'd put Radwan comfortably ahead of Lynagh and May, hes a better winger than Malins and quicker than anyone bar Arundell. When a fair number of these players wont be available early on it is a bit odd that he's not going to be looked at.

He's a better winger and future bet than many on that list. Thorley has also looked in good nick following his return.

Radwan doesn't get picked because England has always been afraid of selecting real talent that might lack 'workrate' or could make the occasional mistake. Stuart Barnes (as a player), Cips, JSD, Christian Wade and no doubt many more that I've forgotten. Amazed that Matthew Tait and David Strettle ever got a gig, TBH.

Awaiting same fate for Marcus Smith and Arundell.

stepsider wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 2:52 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 12:16 pm

fivepointer wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 11:06 am I'd put Radwan comfortably ahead of Lynagh and May, hes a better winger than Malins and quicker than anyone bar Arundell. When a fair number of these players wont be available early on it is a bit odd that he's not going to be looked at.

He's a better winger and future bet than many on that list. Thorley has also looked in good nick following his return.

Radwan doesn't get picked because England has always been afraid of selecting real talent that might lack 'workrate' or could make the occasional mistake. Stuart Barnes (as a player), Cips, JSD, Christian Wade and no doubt many more that I've forgotten. Amazed that Matthew Tait and David Strettle ever got a gig, TBH.

Awaiting same fate for Marcus Smith and Arundell.

Not sure about that tbh. Barnes was a bit unlucky probably (tho his personality and team 'fit' prob didn't help), Cips shot himself in the foot repeatedly, JSD would have been a shoo in under SCW but for gladular fever then unfortunately timed injuries, Wade was pretty poor in defence (but prob could have benefitted from some more attention and coaching). I don't think we've been shy of picking backs with talent- Dawson (weak passer, but terrific runner), Guscott, Robinson, Healey, Balshaw, Catt, Underwoods et al, but you need some balance. In the forwards we've tended to more suspicious of the maverick talent going back to Ripley, thru to Forrester, even Sam Simmonds.

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 3:43 pm

stepsider wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 2:52 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 12:16 pm

He's a better winger and future bet than many on that list. Thorley has also looked in good nick following his return.

Radwan doesn't get picked because England has always been afraid of selecting real talent that might lack 'workrate' or could make the occasional mistake. Stuart Barnes (as a player), Cips, JSD, Christian Wade and no doubt many more that I've forgotten. Amazed that Matthew Tait and David Strettle ever got a gig, TBH.

Awaiting same fate for Marcus Smith and Arundell.

Not sure about that tbh. Barnes was a bit unlucky probably (tho his personality and team 'fit' prob didn't help), Cips shot himself in the foot repeatedly, JSD would have been a shoo in under SCW but for gladular fever then unfortunately timed injuries, Wade was pretty poor in defence (but prob could have benefitted from some more attention and coaching). I don't think we've been shy of picking backs with talent- Dawson (weak passer, but terrific runner), Guscott, Robinson, Healey, Balshaw, Catt, Underwoods et al, but you need some balance. In the forwards we've tended to more suspicious of the maverick talent going back to Ripley, thru to Forrester, even Sam Simmonds.

Also, is Radwan that skillful? He’s quick, sure, but he’s lost out to Arundell, for instance, who’s more skillful…

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 3:43 pm

stepsider wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 2:52 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 12:16 pm

He's a better winger and future bet than many on that list. Thorley has also looked in good nick following his return.

Radwan doesn't get picked because England has always been afraid of selecting real talent that might lack 'workrate' or could make the occasional mistake. Stuart Barnes (as a player), Cips, JSD, Christian Wade and no doubt many more that I've forgotten. Amazed that Matthew Tait and David Strettle ever got a gig, TBH.

Awaiting same fate for Marcus Smith and Arundell.

Not sure about that tbh. Barnes was a bit unlucky probably (tho his personality and team 'fit' prob didn't help), Cips shot himself in the foot repeatedly, JSD would have been a shoo in under SCW but for gladular fever then unfortunately timed injuries, Wade was pretty poor in defence (but prob could have benefitted from some more attention and coaching). I don't think we've been shy of picking backs with talent- Dawson (weak passer, but terrific runner), Guscott, Robinson, Healey, Balshaw, Catt, Underwoods et al, but you need some balance. In the forwards we've tended to more suspicious of the maverick talent going back to Ripley, thru to Forrester, even Sam Simmonds.

Think Cipriani has an entirely different career without the ankle injury. Sinbad was made of wet cardboard and had injury luck that suggests he broke a mirror with a black cat.

Tom Moore wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 8:04 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 3:43 pm

stepsider wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 2:52 pm

Radwan doesn't get picked because England has always been afraid of selecting real talent that might lack 'workrate' or could make the occasional mistake. Stuart Barnes (as a player), Cips, JSD, Christian Wade and no doubt many more that I've forgotten. Amazed that Matthew Tait and David Strettle ever got a gig, TBH.

Awaiting same fate for Marcus Smith and Arundell.

Not sure about that tbh. Barnes was a bit unlucky probably (tho his personality and team 'fit' prob didn't help), Cips shot himself in the foot repeatedly, JSD would have been a shoo in under SCW but for gladular fever then unfortunately timed injuries, Wade was pretty poor in defence (but prob could have benefitted from some more attention and coaching). I don't think we've been shy of picking backs with talent- Dawson (weak passer, but terrific runner), Guscott, Robinson, Healey, Balshaw, Catt, Underwoods et al, but you need some balance. In the forwards we've tended to more suspicious of the maverick talent going back to Ripley, thru to Forrester, even Sam Simmonds.

Think Cipriani has an entirely different career without the ankle injury. Sinbad was made of wet cardboard and had injury luck that suggests he broke a mirror with a black cat.

Is "Cips shot himself in the foot" intended to be ironic? Agree that without 'that' injury his progression would have been very different.

Also agree that Robinson was a real talent, JSB was seriously unlucky. But there are a few question marks over the specific abilities of Healey and Catt (both utility types). Balshaw imploded post-2001 Lions, Tony Underwood was never the same after being Lomu-ed.