RugbyRebels

Strong Argentina side named, but as usual can only find the social media images rather than text. I guess it will be up on the BBC in the next 48 hours or so.

Sinckler failing his fitness test is a blow.

England team to face Argentina: Steward; May, Marchant, Tuilagi, Daly; Ford, Mitchell; Genge, George, Cole; Itoje, Chessum; Lawes (capt), Curry, Earl.

Replacements: Dan, Marler, Stuart, Martin, Ludlam, Care, Smith, Lawrence.

Good side*.

Daly fit, Tuilagi over Lawrence and Mitchell actually trusted in a big game at 9. I'd say they're the only surprising calls in any way?

Martin on the bench is interesting but probably a sensible move with Lawes/Curry questionable in terms of fitness.

*On paper

FKAS wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:03 pm Sinckler failing his fitness test is a blow.

Is it though? He has been bang average for England for ages now, offering not much in the scrum and so much less than he used to around the park. To be fair to slippery boardwalk I'd have Cole and Stuart ahead of Sinckler too.

Youngs not even in the squad. I guess Marchant covers wing if you don't want Smith on early. Ho hum- probably the best-ish backs selection with what he lumbered himself with. Pretty mobile back five in the pack, but risky.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:19 pm Good side*.

Daly fit, Tuilagi over Lawrence and Mitchell actually trusted in a big game at 9. I'd say they're the only surprising calls in any way?

Martin on the bench is interesting but probably a sensible move with Lawes/Curry questionable in terms of fitness.

*On paper

I don't find myself too excited with May on the wing anymore, despite his well taken try vs Fiji. With the rot we're currently in I kind of wish he'd just throw Arundell in there, but I get why he hasn't/isn't.

TheDasher wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:20 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:03 pm Sinckler failing his fitness test is a blow.

Is it though? He has been bang average for England for ages now, offering not much in the scrum and so much less than he used to around the park. To be fair to slippery boardwalk I'd have Cole and Stuart ahead of Sinckler too.

Not sure about deploying Stuart against an Argie scrum, which has to be the rationale for starting Cole. Where can we hide cole in defence tho.

TheDasher wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:22 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:19 pm Good side*.

Daly fit, Tuilagi over Lawrence and Mitchell actually trusted in a big game at 9. I'd say they're the only surprising calls in any way?

Martin on the bench is interesting but probably a sensible move with Lawes/Curry questionable in terms of fitness.

*On paper

I don't find myself too excited with May on the wing anymore, despite his well taken try vs Fiji. With the rot we're currently in I kind of wish he'd just throw Arundell in there, but I get why he hasn't/isn't.

think arundell is crocked still? Can't help feeling that Willis should be starting somewhere, but get why not in squad if not starting.

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:21 pm Youngs not even in the squad. I guess Marchant covers wing if you don't want Smith on early. Ho hum- probably the best-ish backs selection with what he lumbered himself with. Pretty mobile back five in the pack, but risky.

Mobile back five on paper, but god do they need to get on with it, no more jogging around like they've been shot with tranquilizer darts. Hope to see them outworking the opposition and getting to that breakdown quicker. Although let's face it, we're not likely to get their quicker than Argentina even on our best day, whatever that looks like.

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:23 pm

TheDasher wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:22 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:19 pm Good side*.

Daly fit, Tuilagi over Lawrence and Mitchell actually trusted in a big game at 9. I'd say they're the only surprising calls in any way?

Martin on the bench is interesting but probably a sensible move with Lawes/Curry questionable in terms of fitness.

*On paper

I don't find myself too excited with May on the wing anymore, despite his well taken try vs Fiji. With the rot we're currently in I kind of wish he'd just throw Arundell in there, but I get why he hasn't/isn't.

think arundell is crocked still? Can't help feeling that Willis should be starting somewhere, but get why not in squad if not starting.

Is he? In which case, fair enough.

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:23 pm

TheDasher wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:20 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:03 pm Sinckler failing his fitness test is a blow.

Is it though? He has been bang average for England for ages now, offering not much in the scrum and so much less than he used to around the park. To be fair to slippery boardwalk I'd have Cole and Stuart ahead of Sinckler too.

Not sure about deploying Stuart against an Argie scrum, which has to be the rationale for starting Cole. Where can we hide cole in defence tho.

I hear you. It's yet another frustration. Stuart was an absolute bright spark of the terrible times of the last couple of years (ish, I think). At times in the warm ups he's looked soft in the scrum you're right. Hopefully just fitness because I feel like he is capable, there's the ability there I think.

Can't argue with the logic of Cole being in, given the squad.

Christ, but it gives me painful flashbacks to Nick Easter an Tindall being dragged up 8 years past their sell by date though.

Mitchell plus Care plus back five of scrum does kinda indicate a pacier game.....sorry bout that Dan C

Theo Dan on the bench is good for the future-he must be showing up well in training.

16th man wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:29 pm Can't argue with the logic of Cole being in, given the squad.

Christ, but it gives me painful flashbacks to Nick Easter an Tindall being dragged up 8 years past their sell by date though.

Thought that said drugged up. On second thoughts....

Looking forward to 14 v 14 when Lavinini and a random England player get their inevitable red card.

TheDasher wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:27 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:23 pm

TheDasher wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:20 pm

Is it though? He has been bang average for England for ages now, offering not much in the scrum and so much less than he used to around the park. To be fair to slippery boardwalk I'd have Cole and Stuart ahead of Sinckler too.

Not sure about deploying Stuart against an Argie scrum, which has to be the rationale for starting Cole. Where can we hide cole in defence tho.

I hear you. It's yet another frustration. Stuart was an absolute bright spark of the terrible times of the last couple of years (ish, I think). At times in the warm ups he's looked soft in the scrum you're right. Hopefully just fitness because I feel like he is capable, there's the ability there I think.

I'd normally agree with you all but I thought Sinckler looked the best of the three in his brief warm up time. Stuart looked weak and Cole lacking mobility (somewhat understandably).

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:34 pm

No de la Fuente and Moroni on the bench means a fairly young Puma midfield without those stalwarts and the injured Orlando. Be interesting to see if we can exploit that.

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:23 pm

TheDasher wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:22 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:19 pm Good side*.

Daly fit, Tuilagi over Lawrence and Mitchell actually trusted in a big game at 9. I'd say they're the only surprising calls in any way?

Martin on the bench is interesting but probably a sensible move with Lawes/Curry questionable in terms of fitness.

*On paper

I don't find myself too excited with May on the wing anymore, despite his well taken try vs Fiji. With the rot we're currently in I kind of wish he'd just throw Arundell in there, but I get why he hasn't/isn't.

think arundell is crocked still? Can't help feeling that Willis should be starting somewhere, but get why not in squad if not starting.

I think it's all a compromise. Lawrence on the bench is odd. He has to be in case Tuilagi breaks again but it makes more sense to me to start them the other way round. I'd swap Smith and Ford too. Why pick Mitchell to inject pace but start with older/slower players at 10/12. It just seems inconsistent. We have to start well, IMO, to have a chance of winning.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:43 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:23 pm

TheDasher wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:22 pm

I don't find myself too excited with May on the wing anymore, despite his well taken try vs Fiji. With the rot we're currently in I kind of wish he'd just throw Arundell in there, but I get why he hasn't/isn't.

think arundell is crocked still? Can't help feeling that Willis should be starting somewhere, but get why not in squad if not starting.

I think it's all a compromise. Lawrence on the bench is odd. He has to be in case Tuilagi breaks again but it makes more sense to me to start them the other way round. I'd swap Smith and Ford too. Why pick Mitchell to inject pace but start with older/slower players at 10/12. It just seems inconsistent. We have to start well, IMO, to have a chance of winning.

Because the older 10 is quicker of brain?

Oakboy wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:43 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:23 pm

TheDasher wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:22 pm

I don't find myself too excited with May on the wing anymore, despite his well taken try vs Fiji. With the rot we're currently in I kind of wish he'd just throw Arundell in there, but I get why he hasn't/isn't.

think arundell is crocked still? Can't help feeling that Willis should be starting somewhere, but get why not in squad if not starting.

I think it's all a compromise. Lawrence on the bench is odd. He has to be in case Tuilagi breaks again but it makes more sense to me to start them the other way round. I'd swap Smith and Ford too. Why pick Mitchell to inject pace but start with older/slower players at 10/12. It just seems inconsistent. We have to start well, IMO, to have a chance of winning.

I don't get the fan love for Lawrence at 12. He's looked bang average most times he's played there and his ball security in contact is appalling, which is not a feature you want if you're asking someone to run into contact lots. For all of Tuilagi's many flaws and issues, we can at least send him to crash it up and expect relatively quick ball that consistently comes back on our side. Lawrence might be more likely to make a bust nowadays, but he's also much more likely to get stripped or get held up trying to make an extra metre and result in a 10 second ruck.

Puja

FKAS wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:38 pm

No de la Fuente and Moroni on the bench means a fairly young Puma midfield without those stalwarts and the injured Orlando. Be interesting to see if we can exploit that.

That’s cheered me up no end

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:56 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:43 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:23 pm
think arundell is crocked still? Can't help feeling that Willis should be starting somewhere, but get why not in squad if not starting.

I think it's all a compromise. Lawrence on the bench is odd. He has to be in case Tuilagi breaks again but it makes more sense to me to start them the other way round. I'd swap Smith and Ford too. Why pick Mitchell to inject pace but start with older/slower players at 10/12. It just seems inconsistent. We have to start well, IMO, to have a chance of winning.

Because the older 10 is quicker of brain?

Ford is pretty pacy. I remember him running down "flier" Ashton from behind, twice in the same game against the Barbarians. Even if he has slowed by a step or two (I'm not sure he has) he is still sheet lightening compared to Captain Plod. FH's don't need sprinter's pace anyway.
Argentina are rightfully favourites, but anything can happen on the day and an opportunistic score could swing it. The England back row will find it hard to get on top of their three Argie counterparts, who are top performers. This may be where the game is won/lost.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:56 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:43 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:23 pm
think arundell is crocked still? Can't help feeling that Willis should be starting somewhere, but get why not in squad if not starting.

I think it's all a compromise. Lawrence on the bench is odd. He has to be in case Tuilagi breaks again but it makes more sense to me to start them the other way round. I'd swap Smith and Ford too. Why pick Mitchell to inject pace but start with older/slower players at 10/12. It just seems inconsistent. We have to start well, IMO, to have a chance of winning.

Because the older 10 is quicker of brain?

That's always been the contention. How many attacking moves has Ford initiated in recent games, though? I think the sharpness of thought has largely been absent with the type of game we are playing. It's just too safety-first. I don't rate Smith that highly but he does at least attack space occasionally.