England vs Samoa - Sat 4.45pm

[Spiffy]

An early comment on the BBC website rather sums it up:

"Farrell at 12 and a centre on the wing over an actual winger who scored a world cup record equalling number of tries - sounds like a tribute to Eddie Jones... this is the true definition of madness!"

While I also don't want a centre on the wing, the public laudation of Arundell based on the Chile game is getting a bit silly. Yes, he scored a "world cup record equalling number of tries" but they were a) 4 walk-ins and one that required some effort from him and b) against Chile, the lowest ranked side in the tournament. There's been newspaper pundits saying, "You can't drop Arundell after the Chile game," which is bizarre - Daly would also have scored those tries, as would have Marchant (and May is still weeping in the corner at being rested for the one game where people gave the scoring pass to the wingers). Arundell's a great prospect, but he's very far from the finished article and one game against Chile is not evidence of anything at the top level, no matter how good it was.

Puja

Arundell needs game time. Samoa are pretty poor and will be humped, so giving him a run is no risk at all. That is a pretty stodgy set of England backs. The team is moving backwards instead of forwards. Shattered Beak and his coaching staff are a great disappointment.

[Epaminondas Pules]

An early comment on the BBC website rather sums it up:

"Farrell at 12 and a centre on the wing over an actual winger who scored a world cup record equalling number of tries - sounds like a tribute to Eddie Jones... this is the true definition of madness!"

While I also don't want a centre on the wing, the public laudation of Arundell based on the Chile game is getting a bit silly. Yes, he scored a "world cup record equalling number of tries" but they were a) 4 walk-ins and one that required some effort from him and b) against Chile, the lowest ranked side in the tournament. There's been newspaper pundits saying, "You can't drop Arundell after the Chile game," which is bizarre - Daly would also have scored those tries, as would have Marchant (and May is still weeping in the corner at being rested for the one game where people gave the scoring pass to the wingers). Arundell's a great prospect, but he's very far from the finished article and one game against Chile is not evidence of anything at the top level, no matter how good it was.

Puja

Arundell needs game time. Samoa are pretty poor and will be humped, so giving him a run is no risk at all. That is a pretty stodgy set of England backs. The team is moving backwards instead of forwards. Shattered Beak and his coaching staff are a great disappointment.

This on Arundell!! We’re too conservative and downright odd in our selections!

[Mellsblue]

While I also don't want a centre on the wing, the public laudation of Arundell based on the Chile game is getting a bit silly. Yes, he scored a "world cup record equalling number of tries" but they were a) 4 walk-ins and one that required some effort from him and b) against Chile, the lowest ranked side in the tournament. There's been newspaper pundits saying, "You can't drop Arundell after the Chile game," which is bizarre - Daly would also have scored those tries, as would have Marchant (and May is still weeping in the corner at being rested for the one game where people gave the scoring pass to the wingers). Arundell's a great prospect, but he's very far from the finished article and one game against Chile is not evidence of anything at the top level, no matter how good it was.

Puja

Arundell needs game time. Samoa are pretty poor and will be humped, so giving him a run is no risk at all. That is a pretty stodgy set of England backs. The team is moving backwards instead of forwards. Shattered Beak and his coaching staff are a great disappointment.

This on Arundell!! We’re too conservative and downright odd in our selections!

Yep. He’s pretty much the only player in the squad who would even remotely scare top 4 oppo and he’ll get one runout vs Chile at this world cup. Even then he was shunted out on to the wing whilst a 10 played in his preferred position.
God forbid we get past Fiji and put that lineup out in the semi.
Just look at the backline:
9. Not in the original squad and was dire in his last outing.
10. Very good test player who’s been told to hoof the ball in the air for his last 20 caps despite being one of the best gainline passers in the world.
11. Used to be very good but now old and wasn’t in the original squad.
12. Can’t run very fast, can’t pass of his left hand and can’t tackle legally but what a leader… other than when talking to refs or adjusting tactics in game or when the game isn’t going our way. Almost certainly slower than his opposite number.
13. Too old and now too slow. So slow that he’s almost certainly slower than his opposite number.
14. Could be a great 13. Off to France so we won’t find out for at least another two years. Almost certainly slower than his opposite number because he’s a 13.
15. Great under the high ball but rank average if the oppo don’t kick it down his throat. Almost certainly slower than his opposite number.
Fuck this. Where’s my France shirt.
“ Marchons, marchons
Qu'un sang impur
Abreuve nos sillons”

[Puja]

An early comment on the BBC website rather sums it up:

"Farrell at 12 and a centre on the wing over an actual winger who scored a world cup record equalling number of tries - sounds like a tribute to Eddie Jones... this is the true definition of madness!"

While I also don't want a centre on the wing, the public laudation of Arundell based on the Chile game is getting a bit silly. Yes, he scored a "world cup record equalling number of tries" but they were a) 4 walk-ins and one that required some effort from him and b) against Chile, the lowest ranked side in the tournament. There's been newspaper pundits saying, "You can't drop Arundell after the Chile game," which is bizarre - Daly would also have scored those tries, as would have Marchant (and May is still weeping in the corner at being rested for the one game where people gave the scoring pass to the wingers). Arundell's a great prospect, but he's very far from the finished article and one game against Chile is not evidence of anything at the top level, no matter how good it was.

Puja

How long has been in the England set up and how many minutes actually on the field has he had?

Not very long and not a huge number. But also how many minutes did he actually have for LIrish last season, and was he actually in their first XV before he was anointed the great saviour? He's young, inexperienced, and not actually a wing - great talent, but as shown when we chucked him in for the Six Nations and got annoyed when he got turned over lots, not a world beater just yet.

Pah!! Oooh, let's not risk a young player with potential because older wingers would have scored those tries. Let's opt instead for the one player who didn't make the original squad 'cause he played well 4 years ago. God help us if we unearth a, say Moodie, and put more pressure on the old guard.

Or, alternatively: Ooh, let's not anoint a young player as the messiah and then tear him down when he doesn't provide what the idealised version of him that we've built up in our heads can do! Let's instead pick a player who was showing good form in club rugby at the end of the season and is well suited to the current game plan, rather than turning up our nose at him because he's not the new fashionable thing. Let's not get overexcited at scoring tries against Chile!

Puja

[jngf]

Be interesting to see how backrow gels - Lawes may need to do a lot more close quarters carrying than the looser role he’s had so far?

[Mellsblue]

While I also don't want a centre on the wing, the public laudation of Arundell based on the Chile game is getting a bit silly. Yes, he scored a "world cup record equalling number of tries" but they were a) 4 walk-ins and one that required some effort from him and b) against Chile, the lowest ranked side in the tournament. There's been newspaper pundits saying, "You can't drop Arundell after the Chile game," which is bizarre - Daly would also have scored those tries, as would have Marchant (and May is still weeping in the corner at being rested for the one game where people gave the scoring pass to the wingers). Arundell's a great prospect, but he's very far from the finished article and one game against Chile is not evidence of anything at the top level, no matter how good it was.

Puja

How long has been in the England set up and how many minutes actually on the field has he had?

Not very long and not a huge number. But also how many minutes did he actually have for LIrish last season, and was he actually in their first XV before he was anointed the great saviour? He's young, inexperienced, and not actually a wing - great talent, but as shown when we chucked him in for the Six Nations and got annoyed when he got turned over lots, not a world beater just yet.

Pah!! Oooh, let's not risk a young player with potential because older wingers would have scored those tries. Let's opt instead for the one player who didn't make the original squad 'cause he played well 4 years ago. God help us if we unearth a, say Moodie, and put more pressure on the old guard.

Or, alternatively: Ooh, let's not anoint a young player as the messiah and then tear him down when he doesn't provide what the idealised version of him that we've built up in our heads can do! Let's instead pick a player who was showing good form in club rugby at the end of the season and is well suited to the current game plan, rather than turning up our nose at him because he's not the new fashionable thing. Let's not get overexcited at scoring tries against Chile!

Puja

Who’s anointing him? From what I’ve read we’re all just pissed off that we’ve picked stodge and left out a player who has the potential to be world class against a team we should easily beat with or without him. It’s not as if we’re getting out the 1st XV out in preparation to win the entire thing and it’s not as if he’s a 9 or 10 and will have to shape the game. He just has to stand by the touch line, no roaming for our wingers unless it’s Daly, and get some more experience.

[p/d]

While I also don't want a centre on the wing, the public laudation of Arundell based on the Chile game is getting a bit silly. Yes, he scored a "world cup record equalling number of tries" but they were a) 4 walk-ins and one that required some effort from him and b) against Chile, the lowest ranked side in the tournament. There's been newspaper pundits saying, "You can't drop Arundell after the Chile game," which is bizarre - Daly would also have scored those tries, as would have Marchant (and May is still weeping in the corner at being rested for the one game where people gave the scoring pass to the wingers). Arundell's a great prospect, but he's very far from the finished article and one game against Chile is not evidence of anything at the top level, no matter how good it was.

Puja

How long has been in the England set up and how many minutes actually on the field has he had?

Not very long and not a huge number. But also how many minutes did he actually have for LIrish last season, and was he actually in their first XV before he was anointed the great saviour? He's young, inexperienced, and not actually a wing - great talent, but as shown when we chucked him in for the Six Nations and got annoyed when he got turned over lots, not a world beater just yet.

Pah!! Oooh, let's not risk a young player with potential because older wingers would have scored those tries. Let's opt instead for the one player who didn't make the original squad 'cause he played well 4 years ago. God help us if we unearth a, say Moodie, and put more pressure on the old guard.

Or, alternatively: Ooh, let's not anoint a young player as the messiah and then tear him down when he doesn't provide what the idealised version of him that we've built up in our heads can do! Let's instead pick a player who was showing good form in club rugby at the end of the season and is well suited to the current game plan, rather than turning up our nose at him because he's not the new fashionable thing. Let's not get overexcited at scoring tries against Chile!

Puja

It’s your reason for not selecting him that merits the ‘ooh’. If May was proving to be indispensable then fair enough. If Steward’s all court game was coming v Samoa then fair enough.

I’m not expecting SB to throw lambs to the slaughter just this constant fear of failure feels like a chain & ball around development

[Beasties]

Heaven forbid we might give the lad an actual chance for him to prove he’s not horrifically awful.

[morepork]

I'm good with swarthy Gandalf, a shoe horned centre and the border collie being your back three. By all means, leave the pacy well balanced athletic dude out all together.

[Epaminondas Pules]

I'm good with swarthy Gandalf, a shoe horned centre and the border collie being your back three. By all means, leave the pacy well balanced athletic dude out all together.

Indeed! Why play potential game changers when you can play robots!

Alexa show me a kick chase!

[Puja]

Heaven forbid we might give the lad an actual chance for him to prove he’s not horrifically awful.

We're not going to pass to our wings anyway! We are playing a percentages game which will not make use of him ball in hand. Whether we should be doing that is a different argument (and one which would need to take into account the shortened lead-in that Silly Beggars had and whether he was right to go conservative or thrown over this RWC for an Australia-atyle approach), but we cannot change tack midway through a RWC when we have put all our eggs into this basket.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

An early comment on the BBC website rather sums it up:

"Farrell at 12 and a centre on the wing over an actual winger who scored a world cup record equalling number of tries - sounds like a tribute to Eddie Jones... this is the true definition of madness!"

While I also don't want a centre on the wing, the public laudation of Arundell based on the Chile game is getting a bit silly. Yes, he scored a "world cup record equalling number of tries" but they were a) 4 walk-ins and one that required some effort from him and b) against Chile, the lowest ranked side in the tournament. There's been newspaper pundits saying, "You can't drop Arundell after the Chile game," which is bizarre - Daly would also have scored those tries, as would have Marchant (and May is still weeping in the corner at being rested for the one game where people gave the scoring pass to the wingers). Arundell's a great prospect, but he's very far from the finished article and one game against Chile is not evidence of anything at the top level, no matter how good it was.

Puja

Whilst I do agree with all of that, I find the frustrating part is the futility of the opportunity for someone like him.

He’s here doing what? An apprenticeship? Finding out what position he prefers playing? He’s certainly not auditioning for the starting team. We stick him on the wing because we’re scared of what might happen if we put him at fullback (ignoring the elephant in the room there) yet we don’t know how to involve our wingers in the game.

We found a way to get him over the line 5 times (4 walk-ins as you say) but don’t put any real value on it because it was against a side so terrible we risked taking a chance on him. Every time he is brought in to the team it feels like desperation rather than a vote of confidence. Maybe this is great experience for him and I’m miles off though.

I trust Marchant to put in a better, more rounded performance than I would Arundel right now, but it’s the “do we really know what we’re doing or where we’re going?” element of it that annoys me.

Well that and no Murley.

[p/d]

Imagine if McKenzie was English.............he wouldn't make the bench

[FKAS]

Imagine if McKenzie was English.............he wouldn't make the bench

Does he get selected when New Zealand name their strongest 23?

[Mellsblue]

Imagine if McKenzie was English.............he wouldn't make the bench

Does he get selected when New Zealand name their strongest 23?

How many England players get in the NZ 23?

[p/d]

Imagine if McKenzie was English.............he wouldn't make the bench

Does he get selected when New Zealand name their strongest 23?

How many England players get in the NZ 23?

I was trying to avoid that.

[morepork]

Imagine if McKenzie was English.............he wouldn't make the bench

Does he get selected when New Zealand name their strongest 23?

No, because Foster is a Kok.

[TheDasher]

Haven't yet read the other posts but ffs, the backline is just bullshit. May hasn't played well for yonks, shouldn't be anywhere near it and Marchant has been probably the only truly consistent player for England over the past two years, basically always plays pretty well, at 13!! How is he better on the wing than Arundell, OHC, Murley etc. The worst wing combo I can remember England picking. I seem to remember Noon on the wing, and of course Mike Brown, and Manu, but fairly sure there was someone decent on the other side in each case...

I also think not having Ribbans in the squad is a mistake, I think he's brought necessary power and is a fine player. I'd have tried to get Martin and Ribbans on the bench personally.

[FKAS]

Imagine if McKenzie was English.............he wouldn't make the bench

Does he get selected when New Zealand name their strongest 23?

How many England players get in the NZ 23?

You could make a good arguement for the front row. After that you might be struggling a bit.

Was more a point of style though, as phenomenally skillful as DMac is his defensive ability and game management are not as strong as the other options and it holds him back. If he takes another sabbatical then a spell in France might both help the game management element and boost his bank balance.

[morepork]

I dunno about that. He plays what's in front of him pretty well I reckon.

[p/d]

Haven't yet read the other posts but ffs, the backline is just bullshit.

I think you will find you are swimming against the tide

[Stom]

I understand what Puja is saying.

But still... If we're picking Marchant on the wing, that bench stinks to high heavens.

I mean, you have a choice: Smith on the bench with a wing, or ditch Smith and pick Laurence and a wing/FB. To do neither is abysmal. What happens if May goes off first half? We bring on Smith at FB and plop Steward on the wing? So our wings will be Steward and Marchant? Yay.

[Mellsblue]

I dunno about that. He plays what's in front of him pretty well I reckon.

Pretty much his strongest point, imo.

[Mellsblue]

Does he get selected when New Zealand name their strongest 23?

How many England players get in the NZ 23?

You could make a good arguement for the front row. After that you might be struggling a bit.

Was more a point of style though, as phenomenally skillful as DMac is his defensive ability and game management are not as strong as the other options and it holds him back. If he takes another sabbatical then a spell in France might both help the game management element and boost his bank balance.

Or it could be that he’s up against world class players to make the team.

[rjjb]

I understand what Puja is saying.

But still... If we're picking Marchant on the wing, that bench stinks to high heavens.

I mean, you have a choice: Smith on the bench with a wing, or ditch Smith and pick Laurence and a wing/FB. To do neither is abysmal. What happens if May goes off first half? We bring on Smith at FB and plop Steward on the wing? So our wings will be Steward and Marchant? Yay.

Precisely - that's the bit I really don't understand. This 23 effectively has 3 options at 10, 3 options at IC & 3 options at OC, but no real wing cover. It looks really unbalanced, with a distinct lack of pace.