England training camp

[Mikey Brown]

No leaks? Thats new isn’t it?

[Oakboy]

No leaks? Thats new isn’t it?

Maybe, injuries - Dingwall, Coles etc. - will do all SB's work for him, leaving nothing to leak?

[FKAS]

And crucially isn’t on the Tigers payroll

On a serious note, kinda… but much as FKAS loves the kicking, whoever is drilling kabaddi into them needs a talking to.

I was thinking more of the development of the box kicking game and controlling territory as opposed to Farrell and Slade's tendency to punt good attacking ball into the opposition 22 and hope for the best. Wasn't that more a hangover from the Eddie days and a tactic that Borthwick kept initially but we've largely seen the death of.

lol gotcha.

I seem to recall a load of kabaddi in nz could well be wrong (puja reinstated the counter:) ). I definitely remember you defending the tactic
Also have to say development of box kicking is one of the easier things to do in rugby, but sadly important

I thought the Kabbadi was much reduced in NZ. Will wait for the Puja adjudication on that one.

You say that box kicking is easy but to turn it into a weapon at international level it really isn't easy. Ensuring there's a chaser and a jackler with the defensive line in position behind. Doing box kicking passably well is easy but we do more than that well that's more tricky.

[Banquo]

I was thinking more of the development of the box kicking game and controlling territory as opposed to Farrell and Slade's tendency to punt good attacking ball into the opposition 22 and hope for the best. Wasn't that more a hangover from the Eddie days and a tactic that Borthwick kept initially but we've largely seen the death of.

lol gotcha.

I seem to recall a load of kabaddi in nz could well be wrong (puja reinstated the counter:) ). I definitely remember you defending the tactic
Also have to say development of box kicking is one of the easier things to do in rugby, but sadly important

I thought the Kabbadi was much reduced in NZ. Will wait for the Puja adjudication on that one.

You say that box kicking is easy but to turn it into a weapon at international level it really isn't easy. Ensuring there's a chaser and a jackler with the defensive line in position behind. Doing box kicking passably well is easy but we do more than that well that's more tricky.

I didnt say it was easy- not much in RU is- but developing and improving it much more straightforward than a lot of things- fairly obviously I would have thought. The big skill is the decision when not to do it if it’s the situation you normally would- ie the chasers are tied in etc. coaching the kicking technique to a decent kicker is pretty standard to any decent coach, setting up the ruck (say) to do it, standard, identifying the chasers on either side of the park, standard, identifying and tasking support for chase standard etc. there’s a reason why it’s the default tactic for most teams now- and it’s the relative low risk in execution. As Dwyer said, any fool can coach a side to win by kicking…. Albeit a different context

[FKAS]

lol gotcha.

I seem to recall a load of kabaddi in nz could well be wrong (puja reinstated the counter:) ). I definitely remember you defending the tactic
Also have to say development of box kicking is one of the easier things to do in rugby, but sadly important

I thought the Kabbadi was much reduced in NZ. Will wait for the Puja adjudication on that one.

You say that box kicking is easy but to turn it into a weapon at international level it really isn't easy. Ensuring there's a chaser and a jackler with the defensive line in position behind. Doing box kicking passably well is easy but we do more than that well that's more tricky.

I didnt say it was easy- not much in RU is- but developing and improving it much more straightforward than a lot of things- fairly obviously I would have thought. The big skill is the decision when not to do it if it’s the situation you normally would- ie the chasers are tied in etc. coaching the kicking technique to a decent kicker is pretty standard to any decent coach, setting up the ruck (say) to do it, standard, identifying the chasers on either side of the park, standard, identifying and tasking support for chase standard etc. there’s a reason why it’s the default tactic for most teams now- and it’s the relative low risk in execution. As Dwyer said, any fool can coach a side to win by kicking…. Albeit a different context

So very standard and yet so very few sides do it well...

[Banquo]

I thought the Kabbadi was much reduced in NZ. Will wait for the Puja adjudication on that one.

You say that box kicking is easy but to turn it into a weapon at international level it really isn't easy. Ensuring there's a chaser and a jackler with the defensive line in position behind. Doing box kicking passably well is easy but we do more than that well that's more tricky.

I didnt say it was easy- not much in RU is- but developing and improving it much more straightforward than a lot of things- fairly obviously I would have thought. The big skill is the decision when not to do it if it’s the situation you normally would- ie the chasers are tied in etc. coaching the kicking technique to a decent kicker is pretty standard to any decent coach, setting up the ruck (say) to do it, standard, identifying the chasers on either side of the park, standard, identifying and tasking support for chase standard etc. there’s a reason why it’s the default tactic for most teams now- and it’s the relative low risk in execution. As Dwyer said, any fool can coach a side to win by kicking…. Albeit a different context

So very standard and yet so very few sides do it well...

Really? All the top intl sides do, and loads of prem clubs....so disagree, big stylee.

[FKAS]

I didnt say it was easy- not much in RU is- but developing and improving it much more straightforward than a lot of things- fairly obviously I would have thought. The big skill is the decision when not to do it if it’s the situation you normally would- ie the chasers are tied in etc. coaching the kicking technique to a decent kicker is pretty standard to any decent coach, setting up the ruck (say) to do it, standard, identifying the chasers on either side of the park, standard, identifying and tasking support for chase standard etc. there’s a reason why it’s the default tactic for most teams now- and it’s the relative low risk in execution. As Dwyer said, any fool can coach a side to win by kicking…. Albeit a different context

So very standard and yet so very few sides do it well...

Really? All the top intl sides do, and loads of prem clubs....so disagree, big stylee.

Really? So few sides get the ball back in the air or adequately contest at the following breakdown to either steal or slow the ball. Most sides regather the box kick and then slot fairly easily into shape and play. We still see plenty of counter attacks from box kicks. Ideally as the kicking team you want to regather or force the opposition team to play under pressure and have to commit numbers to secure the ball. Force a long kick back you can counter attack from etc.

[Banquo]

So very standard and yet so very few sides do it well...

Really? All the top intl sides do, and loads of prem clubs....so disagree, big stylee.

Really? So few sides get the ball back in the air or adequately contest at the following breakdown to either steal or slow the ball. Most sides regather the box kick and then slot fairly easily into shape and play. We still see plenty of counter attacks from box kicks. Ideally as the kicking team you want to regather or force the opposition team to play under pressure and have to commit numbers to secure the ball. Force a long kick back you can counter attack from etc.

still not agreeing. All the top sides have a good box kicking game is my perception. I do understand the why and ideal outcome, and if a side doesn't have a good box kicking game, then I'd question the coaching if a- they still do it , and b- the competence of said coaches; course you might have a 9 who simply can't kick well but makes up for it in other dimensions, but then don't box kick.
Not sure why you think it's rocket science tbh.

[Puja]

Really? All the top intl sides do, and loads of prem clubs....so disagree, big stylee.

Really? So few sides get the ball back in the air or adequately contest at the following breakdown to either steal or slow the ball. Most sides regather the box kick and then slot fairly easily into shape and play. We still see plenty of counter attacks from box kicks. Ideally as the kicking team you want to regather or force the opposition team to play under pressure and have to commit numbers to secure the ball. Force a long kick back you can counter attack from etc.

still not agreeing. All the top sides have a good box kicking game is my perception. I do understand the why and ideal outcome, and if a side doesn't have a good box kicking game, then I'd question the coaching if a- they still do it , and b- the competence of said coaches; course you might have a 9 who simply can't kick well but makes up for it in other dimensions, but then don't box kick.
Not sure why you think it's rocket science tbh.

I suspect it's easy to have a solid box-kicking game, in the same way that it's easy to have a solid lineout or solid defence, but what's very difficult is having an excellent one. I would say that it's one of those things that look simple to the average spod, but an absolute rugby nause can get in on the detail and see that it is rocket science to go from good to great and that there is significant work that has to go in to get there.

While I didn't enjoy it and hated that we focussed on it to the detriment of everything else, England's box-kicking game in the 2023 RWC was enough that it enabled us to nearly beat South Africa, despite us having absolutely nothing else and being hilariously outclassed in almost every other respect.

Puja

[Banquo]

Really? So few sides get the ball back in the air or adequately contest at the following breakdown to either steal or slow the ball. Most sides regather the box kick and then slot fairly easily into shape and play. We still see plenty of counter attacks from box kicks. Ideally as the kicking team you want to regather or force the opposition team to play under pressure and have to commit numbers to secure the ball. Force a long kick back you can counter attack from etc.

still not agreeing. All the top sides have a good box kicking game is my perception. I do understand the why and ideal outcome, and if a side doesn't have a good box kicking game, then I'd question the coaching if a- they still do it , and b- the competence of said coaches; course you might have a 9 who simply can't kick well but makes up for it in other dimensions, but then don't box kick.
Not sure why you think it's rocket science tbh.

I suspect it's easy to have a solid box-kicking game, in the same way that it's easy to have a solid lineout or solid defence, but what's very difficult is having an excellent one. I would say that it's one of those things that look simple to the average spod, but an absolute rugby nause can get in on the detail and see that it is rocket science to go from good to great and that there is significant work that has to go in to get there.

While I didn't enjoy it and hated that we focussed on it to the detriment of everything else, England's box-kicking game in the 2023 RWC was enough that it enabled us to nearly beat South Africa, despite us having absolutely nothing else and being hilariously outclassed in almost every other respect.

Puja

what would make it excellent is a 9 who can always drop it on a sixpence even under pressure (and is aware who is about for the chase, and may decide to run another phase), and players who clearly know their task when box kick occurs (primary and secondary chasers etc). You may not always have the former I grant you, and suspect that would be the major difference. But really, as a coaching challenge its not the greatest- funnily it was my coaching assessment exercise when I did the old intermediate badge.....and I was assessed by Tony Russ of all people. I had to first get the 9's technique right, then assign roles to chasers etc. Then run through different mini/live game scenarios. Moderately interesting, but as you say, more about nause detail than anything very tricky or undoable. Significant work is required on almost every facet of the game to be prepared for intl rugby, obviously.

My initial point, was that of all the stuff a coach takes on at intl level, this is one of the easier ones to get right, assuming a half decent kicker (and even then, hard work, nothing else, can turn a half decent kicker into a very good one, with a good coach and focused time). Of course, some sides may decide a lot of focus on this is not a priority, esp if the 9 isn't a great kicker and never will be, but want him to start anyway (my view is they have a ton of time to hone every bit of the game but maybe that's old skool).