Argentina vs England first test - Sat 8.40pm

[Danno]

Definitely unpopular opinion, but Hill feels like a bit of a goal hanger that doesn't get through enough work for an international flanker because he's sitting on the wing all the time.

[Banquo]

Definitely unpopular opinion, but Hill feels like a bit of a goal hanger that doesn't get through enough work for an international flanker because he's sitting on the wing all the time.

I've not seen him play internationally, nor in a system other than Bath's, so hard to judge.

This sounds a bit like the Tom Croft argument again; he was deployed on the wing (wrongly imo) post lineouts esp for England. Wasted imo, as he was absolutely fine at the basics of flanker play, as he showed playing for the Lions under Gatland.

[Danno]

Definitely unpopular opinion, but Hill feels like a bit of a goal hanger that doesn't get through enough work for an international flanker because he's sitting on the wing all the time.

I've not seen him play internationally, nor in a system other than Bath's, so hard to judge.

This sounds a bit like the Tom Croft argument again; he was deployed on the wing (wrongly imo) post lineouts esp for England. Wasted imo, as he was absolutely fine at the basics of flanker play, as he showed playing for the Lions under Gatland.

I didn't see a great deal of Croft but that sounds fair. That said we got smacked up at the breakdown in the XV match vs France and having your 6 30 metres away from every tackle just doesn't feel good.

[Banquo]

Definitely unpopular opinion, but Hill feels like a bit of a goal hanger that doesn't get through enough work for an international flanker because he's sitting on the wing all the time.

I've not seen him play internationally, nor in a system other than Bath's, so hard to judge.

This sounds a bit like the Tom Croft argument again; he was deployed on the wing (wrongly imo) post lineouts esp for England. Wasted imo, as he was absolutely fine at the basics of flanker play, as he showed playing for the Lions under Gatland.

I didn't see a great deal of Croft but that sounds fair. That said we got smacked up at the breakdown in the XV match vs France and having your 6 30 metres away from every tackle just doesn't feel good.

Got to look at the tasking sometimes rather than the player, and what other players are or aren't doing. That said, there's clearly something in Hill's game that intl coaches don't like.

[Scrumhead]

True. But one also influences the other. Bath use Hill in that role because it suits him and they have other players doing more of the donkey work. In all fairness, I definitely don’t recall him playing that way at Worcester so I’m sure he can play a tighter game.

The trouble is, we all know jngf rarely watches anything other than test matches so I strongly suspect that he takes a view of a player based upon what he expects the person in that shirt to do. In his mind Hill plays at 6 so must be a big abrasive blindside.

[Banquo]

True. But one also influences the other. Bath use Hill in that role because it suits him and they have other players doing more of the donkey work. In all fairness, I definitely don’t recall him playing that way at Worcester so I’m sure he can play a tighter game.

yup, ditto Croft for Tigers and some extent for England. I just think in Hill's case his lineout and gas have to be worth a bit of thought.

[fivepointer]

Im surprised Hill isnt in the starting XV. He adds the perfect foil to a genuine openside and a hard carrying No 8.

[Banquo]

Im surprised Hill isnt in the starting XV. He adds the perfect foil to a genuine openside and a hard carrying No 8.

....cue jngf, after all our progress

[Epaminondas Pules]

Definitely unpopular opinion, but Hill feels like a bit of a goal hanger that doesn't get through enough work for an international flanker because he's sitting on the wing all the time.

But early for drinking isn’t is?

[jngf]

True. But one also influences the other. Bath use Hill in that role because it suits him and they have other players doing more of the donkey work. In all fairness, I definitely don’t recall him playing that way at Worcester so I’m sure he can play a tighter game.

The trouble is, we all know jngf rarely watches anything other than test matches so I strongly suspect that he takes a view of a player based upon what he expects the person in that shirt to do. In his mind Hill plays at 6 so must be a big abrasive blindside.

Scrumhead I should kiss that career in psychology goodbye - I’ve never ever suggested Hill is the abrasive wrecking ball type of 6 -that would be more CCS’ style - I actually like the creativity Hill brings to the role and in some respects he brings to the 6 shirt qualities which Earl and Pollock bring to 7.

On the wider point blindside flank really is the least prescriptive role in a rugby XV - and certainly it can be used to balance out the skills that 7 and 8 bring to the party. As alluded to elsewhere, playing Ben Curry with Willis and Underhill regardless does leave us short on some aspects namely lineout jumping and extra pace in the wider channels were the game to open out - two things Ted Hill really does bring to the party.

[Oakboy]

That said, there's clearly something in Hill's game that intl coaches don't like.

Agreed but when you look at the player's physical attributes it's hard to understand why. If he can't be moulded into an effective international flanker do you question the coaching or conclude there is some character flaw? Maybe, he simply does not work hard enough in training. I'd have thought he'd at least be in the 23. As it is, he's down at about 7th choice back rower (including CCS ahead) on this tour with three (four if you count Chessum) more ahead on Lions duty. Weird.

[Danno]

Definitely unpopular opinion, but Hill feels like a bit of a goal hanger that doesn't get through enough work for an international flanker because he's sitting on the wing all the time.

But early for drinking isn’t is?

I haven't watched much of Bath this year outside of the top end of the season tbh, like I say just a feeling from the bits of him I have seen.

[Which Tyler]

You're criticising the player for the coach's gameplan

[Epaminondas Pules]

Definitely unpopular opinion, but Hill feels like a bit of a goal hanger that doesn't get through enough work for an international flanker because he's sitting on the wing all the time.

But early for drinking isn’t is?

I haven't watched much of Bath this year outside of the top end of the season tbh, like I say just a feeling from the bits of him I have seen.

It feels like a conversation about Tom Croft, which would have been equally wrong.

[Mikey Brown]

To be fair, what else is he meant to be judged on right now? I don’t disagree he’s got some incredible physical attributes, but Borthwick has these mystery exclusions sometimes. He seemed very reluctant on Willis for quite a while.

I feel like I’ve seen him doing some good physical work, but not watched enough full games of Bath to see how much it’s tactical or if he has holes in his game/workrate.

[FKAS]

I've not seen him play internationally, nor in a system other than Bath's, so hard to judge.

This sounds a bit like the Tom Croft argument again; he was deployed on the wing (wrongly imo) post lineouts esp for England. Wasted imo, as he was absolutely fine at the basics of flanker play, as he showed playing for the Lions under Gatland.

I didn't see a great deal of Croft but that sounds fair. That said we got smacked up at the breakdown in the XV match vs France and having your 6 30 metres away from every tackle just doesn't feel good.

Got to look at the tasking sometimes rather than the player, and what other players are or aren't doing. That said, there's clearly something in Hill's game that intl coaches don't like.

His tackle completion stats?

[Banquo]

But early for drinking isn’t is?

I haven't watched much of Bath this year outside of the top end of the season tbh, like I say just a feeling from the bits of him I have seen.

It feels like a conversation about Tom Croft, which would have been equally wrong.

I just said that

[Banquo]

I didn't see a great deal of Croft but that sounds fair. That said we got smacked up at the breakdown in the XV match vs France and having your 6 30 metres away from every tackle just doesn't feel good.

Got to look at the tasking sometimes rather than the player, and what other players are or aren't doing. That said, there's clearly something in Hill's game that intl coaches don't like.

His tackle completion stats?

Dunno, have you looked them up and benchmarked?

[Beasties]

A complete house of luxury giraffes in the back three. Meh.

[Beasties]

Where’s this televised?

[Captainhaircut]

Where’s this televised?

Bookmark this mate.

https://www.wheresthematch.com/live-rugby-union-on-tv/

[Beasties]

Where’s this televised?

Bookmark this mate.

https://www.wheresthematch.com/live-rugby-union-on-tv/

Brilliant, thanks.

[FKAS]

Got to look at the tasking sometimes rather than the player, and what other players are or aren't doing. That said, there's clearly something in Hill's game that intl coaches don't like.

His tackle completion stats?

Dunno, have you looked them up and benchmarked?

Available here
https://theanalyst.com/club-rugby-stats

Ted Hill 81% (think this has improved as well)
Ben Curry 92%
Underhill 88%
T Willis 93%
Pollock 93%
Earl 88%
CCS 86%
Tom Curry 87%
Chessum 89%

[Banquo]

His tackle completion stats?

Dunno, have you looked them up and benchmarked?

Available here
https://theanalyst.com/club-rugby-stats

Ted Hill 81% (think this has improved as well)
Ben Curry 92%
Underhill 88%
T Willis 93%
Pollock 93%
Earl 88%
CCS 86%
Tom Curry 87%
Chessum 89%

Fair play

[Captainhaircut]

Gardner the ref. No chance.