2ND. TEST

[Banquo]

Stunned by that. How has Genge been dropped, after the series that he has had? Utterly shocking.

Puja

This!!! I thought Genge had been underperforming for England a fair bit lately but he has excelled on this tour - maybe the one English player to have gained substantially from being there.

Yes, Itoje is Itoje so his performances are a given. Chessum is in now and Freeman stays, as do Mitchell and Stuart on the bench. Curry is OK for a half. Fucking Farrell is on the bench.

Against that, the rest of the English contingent are marginalised. I am pleased that Morgan is on the bench but what did Earl do to get dropped (not that I am a fan)?

Smith and Smith will not come back better players.

Earl was poor last week. He doesn't have the impact. Morgan is a better bet, imo.

Earl was v poor last week.

[Banquo]

So Farrell snr did swap out the centres then, but injury forced him to put Jones back in. I'm going to quietly stew about that.

If Hansen had been fit I suspect it may have been Ireland + Russell in the backs without Ringrose's withdrawl.

Not sure how Cummins and George aren't on the bench, I also thought White may have done enough for a bench spot but that's a much closer call, Ben Earl unlucky to miss out here and Farrell could have gone for a 6-2 split if he had wanted to include both Earl and Morgan (under the proviso that Earl can cover centre which Farrell has mentioned earlier in the tour), however I can't remember Farrell ever fielding a 6-2 split so maybe that's not something he's comfortable with.

Would also require either Kinghorn to cover 10 or Farrell to cover the backfield...or you pick MSmith.

Either way...

If I'm honest, there are few Lions players who are obviously the absolute best choice compared to the others on tour. Sheehan is class, he's the obvious 2. Strangely, Genge seems to be the obvious 1...Itoje is the obvious 4, Conan is the obvious 8 due to lack of other options, and Russell is our best player.

And for me, that's it.

Which is partly a good look: lots of very good players around.
And partly a terrible look: we've got a squad full of meh players.

Agreed

[Puja]

Ringrose and Hansen are still injured i think? If not, then yes they would be very puzzled

Ringrose was originally selected but withdrew due to the effects of concussion, according to the beeb.

So Farrell snr did swap out the centres then, but injury forced him to put Jones back in. I'm going to quietly stew about that.

That would've been 10/15 starters being Irish. I apologise to whomever it was I was arguing with on here when they said at the beginning that Farrell would just make it Ireland plus special guests.

You just know that T3 will see Hansen, Ringrose, and Ryan into the XV to bolster the shaky performance from T2.

Puja

[BaldiePete]

If it wasn’t for my Scottish Persecution Syndrome telling me that if the Lions lose then Russell will get the blame I’d seriously consider supporting Australia.

[Danno]

Ringrose was originally selected but withdrew due to the effects of concussion, according to the beeb.

So Farrell snr did swap out the centres then, but injury forced him to put Jones back in. I'm going to quietly stew about that.

That would've been 10/15 starters being Irish. I apologise to whomever it was I was arguing with on here when they said at the beginning that Farrell would just make it Ireland plus special guests.

You just know that T3 will see Hansen, Ringrose, and Ryan into the XV to bolster the shaky performance from T2.

Puja

It's ok, we'll have daddy's special little guy repping us

[Big D]

Ringrose if still showing concussion symptoms, or showing new symptoms probably should be stood down for the rest of the tour.

[Cameo]

If it wasn’t for my Scottish Persecution Syndrome telling me that if the Lions lose then Russell will get the blame I’d seriously consider supporting Australia.

...and we've reached that stage of a Lions tour.

I'm just laughing, not criticising you. I am not there, partly because I think they have played some good rugby, partly because I love Russell, and partly because Farrell generally comes across quite well. However, I often find it on Lions tours. It's definitely a conditional fandom for me, I mainly want them to do well, but it depends on who's playing, how the tour is run, and the opposition.

[Mikey Brown]

If it wasn’t for my Scottish Persecution Syndrome telling me that if the Lions lose then Russell will get the blame I’d seriously consider supporting Australia.

...and we've reached that stage of a Lions tour.

I'm just laughing, not criticising you. I am not there, partly because I think they have played some good rugby, partly because I love Russell, and partly because Farrell generally comes across quite well. However, I often find it on Lions tours. It's definitely a conditional fandom for me, I mainly want them to do well, but it depends on who's playing, how the tour is run, and the opposition.

Yep. I feel it with the Welsh presence as well though, so it’s not all about my own bias. The closer it gets to a Leinster team the less I feel I can be excited by it. Russell’s presence is doing about 90% of the work for me at the moment.

Part of me still thinks it should just be 10 players from each nation and be done with it. I know, I know, “it’s all about winning” but is it? Really? The Lions is a stupid concept, but it’s fun. It doesn’t really matter if they win or not, it has no real repercussions on the international stage other than for the hosts, it’s about being an entertaining money-spinner for the most part.

[BaldiePete]

If it wasn’t for my Scottish Persecution Syndrome telling me that if the Lions lose then Russell will get the blame I’d seriously consider supporting Australia.

...and we've reached that stage of a Lions tour.

I'm just laughing, not criticising you. I am not there, partly because I think they have played some good rugby, partly because I love Russell, and partly because Farrell generally comes across quite well. However, I often find it on Lions tours. It's definitely a conditional fandom for me, I mainly want them to do well, but it depends on who's playing, how the tour is run, and the opposition.

Jones starting and Kinghorn on the bench has definitely still got me supporting Leinster the Lions. A word to Kinghorn though - don’t do anything really fucking stupid if you get on.

[Banquo]

If it wasn’t for my Scottish Persecution Syndrome telling me that if the Lions lose then Russell will get the blame I’d seriously consider supporting Australia.

Really??

[Donny osmond]

Ringrose was originally selected but withdrew due to the effects of concussion, according to the beeb.

So Farrell snr did swap out the centres then, but injury forced him to put Jones back in. I'm going to quietly stew about that.

That would've been 10/15 starters being Irish. I apologise to whomever it was I was arguing with on here when they said at the beginning that Farrell would just make it Ireland plus special guests.

You just know that T3 will see Hansen, Ringrose, and Ryan into the XV to bolster the shaky performance from T2.

Puja

I think that might have been me! It was a discussion, not an argument.... In fairness at the time I was being a bit facetious, must have been in a bad mood about something.

It isn't - yet - Ireland plus guests, but its got that whiff about it. It's very disappointing. And if your prediction about t3 comes to pass, I will check out of this tour.

I did post in the t1 thread about how Lions tours shine a harsh light on coaches as much as players, more so even. Well, Farrell snr is under the spotlight right now. Given how poor Aus have been, he might get away with it, but he's in danger of relying on Aus being poor to win the series rather than his coaching ability giving us a Lions team for the ages.

[Donny osmond]

If it wasn’t for my Scottish Persecution Syndrome telling me that if the Lions lose then Russell will get the blame I’d seriously consider supporting Australia.

...and we've reached that stage of a Lions tour.

I'm just laughing, not criticising you. I am not there, partly because I think they have played some good rugby, partly because I love Russell, and partly because Farrell generally comes across quite well. However, I often find it on Lions tours. It's definitely a conditional fandom for me, I mainly want them to do well, but it depends on who's playing, how the tour is run, and the opposition.

Yep. I feel it with the Welsh presence as well though, so it’s not all about my own bias. The closer it gets to a Leinster team the less I feel I can be excited by it. Russell’s presence is doing about 90% of the work for me at the moment.

Part of me still thinks it should just be 10 players from each nation and be done with it. I know, I know, “it’s all about winning” but is it? Really? The Lions is a stupid concept, but it’s fun. It doesn’t really matter if they win or not, it has no real repercussions on the international stage other than for the hosts, it’s about being an entertaining money-spinner for the most part.

This is pretty much where I am too

[Banquo]

...and we've reached that stage of a Lions tour.

I'm just laughing, not criticising you. I am not there, partly because I think they have played some good rugby, partly because I love Russell, and partly because Farrell generally comes across quite well. However, I often find it on Lions tours. It's definitely a conditional fandom for me, I mainly want them to do well, but it depends on who's playing, how the tour is run, and the opposition.

Yep. I feel it with the Welsh presence as well though, so it’s not all about my own bias. The closer it gets to a Leinster team the less I feel I can be excited by it. Russell’s presence is doing about 90% of the work for me at the moment.

Part of me still thinks it should just be 10 players from each nation and be done with it. I know, I know, “it’s all about winning” but is it? Really? The Lions is a stupid concept, but it’s fun. It doesn’t really matter if they win or not, it has no real repercussions on the international stage other than for the hosts, it’s about being an entertaining money-spinner for the most part.

This is pretty much where I am too

It should be the apex of a players career from a rep point of view and should and does mean a lot still; being one of the best across GB and I is quite something, and being a Test Lion obviously more so. In these days of straight faced not much fun rugby it’s something special in theory. However if coaches are not prepared or able to put the work in to meld players together (like McGeechan did) then it’s not really meritocratic and imo Faz is killing that. That’s then compounded by flying the nearest intl player in because you can.
The fans out there will still love it, and believe me they want the win desperately- losing like we did in Melbourne in 2013 was bloody horrible afterwards I tell thee!!

[Puja]

If it wasn’t for my Scottish Persecution Syndrome telling me that if the Lions lose then Russell will get the blame I’d seriously consider supporting Australia.

...and we've reached that stage of a Lions tour.

I'm just laughing, not criticising you. I am not there, partly because I think they have played some good rugby, partly because I love Russell, and partly because Farrell generally comes across quite well. However, I often find it on Lions tours. It's definitely a conditional fandom for me, I mainly want them to do well, but it depends on who's playing, how the tour is run, and the opposition.

Yep. I feel it with the Welsh presence as well though, so it’s not all about my own bias. The closer it gets to a Leinster team the less I feel I can be excited by it. Russell’s presence is doing about 90% of the work for me at the moment.

Part of me still thinks it should just be 10 players from each nation and be done with it. I know, I know, “it’s all about winning” but is it? Really? The Lions is a stupid concept, but it’s fun. It doesn’t really matter if they win or not, it has no real repercussions on the international stage other than for the hosts, it’s about being an entertaining money-spinner for the most part.

I'd agree with that. I certainly think at minimum that the coaches should make deliberate efforts towards balance in selection - for all of the times we hear coaches say, "It shouldn't be about picking nationalities or quotas but about picking the best squad," was Kelleher really significantly better than Lake? Was there really no room for the experience of Faletau? Was Earl really necessary on the bench in the first test when it meant leaving Morgan out entirely? Would it not have been kinder to pick Blair Murray when Daly went down, given the Welsh were down to their last rep?

The response to that would be, "Oh, it's supposed to be on merit, it's supposed to be an honour that's worked for and special," but if that's the case, explain Ewan Ashman, Gregor Brown, and Jamie Osbourne. If there is a 50:50 selection decision, or even a 55:45, then that decision should go towards making sure every nation is involved and represented. It is supposed to be a blend of the teams and fanbases and, if we tell the Welsh or Scots to fuck off too many times, then pretty soon their fans will take the hint and take their money and interest with them.

Puja

[SixAndAHalf]

Farce of a tour compounded by Irish bias in this selection and made significantly worse by the selection of Daddy’s Boy.

AFAIK Farrell cannot kick for sticks without aggravating an injury so what is the plan if Russell is forced off early. Seems an extraordinary risk compared to the benefit when you have FSmith who has proven himself to be a good international 10 right there…

Kinghorn can kick if need be. Has done so for Toulouse.

From what I can see he’s converted 10 P/C this season so not a frontline kicker nor necessarily someone you’d want taking pressure kicks in a test.

In any case you’d also have to use two back subs to cover one injury.

[SixAndAHalf]

...and we've reached that stage of a Lions tour.

I'm just laughing, not criticising you. I am not there, partly because I think they have played some good rugby, partly because I love Russell, and partly because Farrell generally comes across quite well. However, I often find it on Lions tours. It's definitely a conditional fandom for me, I mainly want them to do well, but it depends on who's playing, how the tour is run, and the opposition.

Yep. I feel it with the Welsh presence as well though, so it’s not all about my own bias. The closer it gets to a Leinster team the less I feel I can be excited by it. Russell’s presence is doing about 90% of the work for me at the moment.

Part of me still thinks it should just be 10 players from each nation and be done with it. I know, I know, “it’s all about winning” but is it? Really? The Lions is a stupid concept, but it’s fun. It doesn’t really matter if they win or not, it has no real repercussions on the international stage other than for the hosts, it’s about being an entertaining money-spinner for the most part.

I'd agree with that. I certainly think at minimum that the coaches should make deliberate efforts towards balance in selection - for all of the times we hear coaches say, "It shouldn't be about picking nationalities or quotas but about picking the best squad," was Kelleher really significantly better than Lake? Was there really no room for the experience of Faletau? Was Earl really necessary on the bench in the first test when it meant leaving Morgan out entirely? Would it not have been kinder to pick Blair Murray when Daly went down, given the Welsh were down to their last rep?

The response to that would be, "Oh, it's supposed to be on merit, it's supposed to be an honour that's worked for and special," but if that's the case, explain Ewan Ashman, Gregor Brown, and Jamie Osbourne. If there is a 50:50 selection decision, or even a 55:45, then that decision should go towards making sure every nation is involved and represented. It is supposed to be a blend of the teams and fanbases and, if we tell the Welsh or Scots to fuck off too many times, then pretty soon their fans will take the hint and take their money and interest with them.

Puja

I agree with this and other similar comments. Perhaps Oz never could have been a great tour but I sense the Lions concept is caught between tradition and the requirements to win test rugby in the modern era.

I’d prefer it lent more into tradition / unique elements (even at the cost of winning) rather than being a homogeneous but worse version of other international rugby.

[BaldiePete]

Farce of a tour compounded by Irish bias in this selection and made significantly worse by the selection of Daddy’s Boy.

AFAIK Farrell cannot kick for sticks without aggravating an injury so what is the plan if Russell is forced off early. Seems an extraordinary risk compared to the benefit when you have FSmith who has proven himself to be a good international 10 right there…

Kinghorn can kick if need be. Has done so for Toulouse.

From what I can see he’s converted 10 P/C this season so not a frontline kicker nor necessarily someone you’d want taking pressure kicks in a test.

In any case you’d also have to use two back subs to cover one injury.

Kinghorn only kicks for Toulouse when Ramos isn’t playing and he is definitely not a reliable kicker. He missed a few easy ones when Edinburgh experimented playing him at 10 and similarly for Scotland. He played at 10 against Australia in an out of window international and had a fairly simple penalty to win the match with the last kick but he missed it.

[Banquo]

For the avoidance of doubt, the Lions has always been about winning IIRC, hence test status. The challenge has always been to meld together the best of B and I to do so (and often that's been achieved by having a core from the best 6N team eg 71, lots of Welsh backs and it was great). As I said, its pants when you don't when you travel to say OZ to watch and they lose!!

[jngf]

Apols for doing my stuck record thing but where’s any ball carrying ability in that Lion’s starting pack - Porter (possibly), Sheehan and Chessum aside?

[Mikey Brown]

Apols for doing my stuck record thing but where’s any ball carrying ability in that Lion’s starting pack - Porter (possibly), Sheehan and Chessum aside?

Probably scared of 'promoting themselves to the bench' (cheers Eddie) like Genge has.

[Banquo]

Apols for doing my stuck record thing but where’s any ball carrying ability in that Lion’s starting pack - Porter (possibly), Sheehan and Chessum aside?

Conan(60m) Furlong (effective tight but actually used to distribute more) Itoje carried effectively a bit wider tbh last week- 3rd best yards. Even Curry carried ok.

That said, McCarthy will be missed, as will Genge as a starter.

Btw- Conan should have more credit than he got for last week. Tons of carries and no missed tackles.

[Banquo]

Apols for doing my stuck record thing but where’s any ball carrying ability in that Lion’s starting pack - Porter (possibly), Sheehan and Chessum aside?

Probably scared of 'promoting themselves to the bench' (cheers Eddie) like Genge has.

Yes, feel for him imo his carrying is leaps and bounds improved and his scrummaging always solid to very good.

[Oakboy]

For the avoidance of doubt, the Lions has always been about winning IIRC, hence test status. The challenge has always been to meld together the best of B and I to do so (and often that's been achieved by having a core from the best 6N team eg 71, lots of Welsh backs and it was great). As I said, its pants when you don't when you travel to say OZ to watch and they lose!!

Do you think your mates who are there will be happy with (just) wins against this Aussie team? Just asking as I'd expect to be entertained against them.

[Banquo]

For the avoidance of doubt, the Lions has always been about winning IIRC, hence test status. The challenge has always been to meld together the best of B and I to do so (and often that's been achieved by having a core from the best 6N team eg 71, lots of Welsh backs and it was great). As I said, its pants when you don't when you travel to say OZ to watch and they lose!!

Do you think your mates who are there will be happy with (just) wins against this Aussie team? Just asking as I'd expect to be entertained against them.

Ones man’s lack of entertainment is another man’s win. What entertains you? Sports about winning, if you support a side. I’d take England winning the World Cup 3-0 in every game.

Yes, simple answer.

[Oakboy]

For the avoidance of doubt, the Lions has always been about winning IIRC, hence test status. The challenge has always been to meld together the best of B and I to do so (and often that's been achieved by having a core from the best 6N team eg 71, lots of Welsh backs and it was great). As I said, its pants when you don't when you travel to say OZ to watch and they lose!!

Do you think your mates who are there will be happy with (just) wins against this Aussie team? Just asking as I'd expect to be entertained against them.

Ones man’s lack of entertainment is another man’s win. What entertains you? Sports about winning, if you support a side. I’d take England winning the World Cup 3-0 in every game.

Yes, simple answer.

I think I want attractive play when the opposition is relatively weak. The reds are capable of fielding a team that can play attractive rugby without fear of not winning. Obviously, against SA or NZ it would be different. Of course, this coaching crew might not be able to deliver anything other than a functional showing.

I agree about your England comment.

The difference is that the Lions are supposed to be some sort of elite step up, aren't they? Arguably, on paper they would be ranked above the current No 1 in the world whereas Aus are 7th or whatever.