RugbyRebels

I see it as exciting that we have accommodated Freeman, Roebuck and IFW in one team. With Steward at 15 and FSmith not having much game time I see the logic behind Ford at 10.

Wonder if FSmith regrets going on the Lions tour - he wasn’t well utilised and it may cost him his England place

Danno wrote: ↑Mon Oct 27, 2025 7:39 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Mon Oct 27, 2025 7:37 pm

Stom wrote: ↑Mon Oct 27, 2025 6:30 pm

I wasn't being 110% serious...

Just seeing our...4 biggest back 3 players...

And I also feel like there is no reason to select Steward. I just do not trust him in 1 on 1 defense. His footwork isn't good enough, imo.

His 1-on-1 is significantly improved this season, mind. Who would you be picking at 15 instead?

Puja

Saving this for later

To be fair Nick David decided he'd go round the outside of Steward, got tackled and then Radwan got in for the jackle turnover. Tom O'Flaherty fancied throwing the footwork and going past Steward at the weekend and got chopped down. Whilst Steward has the turning circle of a roundabout once beaten I do think he's been unfairly maligned for being stepped by people like Kolbe and Grant Williams who other players would have got let off not tackling.

His 1 on 1 tackling is never going to be unbelievable Vs international wings in space but then neither is Furbank's.

Steward's 2 on 1 defending is a bigger annoyance. Start of last season he stopped worrying about the pass and just started smashing the ball carrier. The ball carrier executing the time honoured draw the man and pass would then be making the pass whilst a backrow sized fullback introduced his shoulder to the would be passers ribs. Saved some tries with that (including two, should have been three vs Quins at Twickers). Midway through the season he started going for the sodding pass again, hence being dummied repeatedly. Terrible tactic that's never going to work for him, I'm hoping he'll just go back to smashing people again.

I've got nothing against the guy. I don't think he's quite up to international standard when compared to other FBs in this day and age, but I don't get upset when he's picked, particularly when there are scant options.

ETA: TL;DR: Steward is the best available individual at FB, but I'd rather have TdG trying to play like Furbank than Steward trying to play like Furbank.



I've no particular problem with Steward.
He may not the fleetest of foot, but that's only getting exposed when the defensive system has already been breached, so the problem is almost always from whoever left him that mess to try to tidy up.
Obviously, I'd prefer it if he were better able to tidy that mess, but still.

My problem with him is that he's such a different player to our first choice FB that he basically needs a different game plan, both in attack and defence - though if what tigers fans are telling me about his improved distribution is true, that's something he's working on, in attack at least.

If Furbank is our first choice starter, and he rightly is, then the backups need to be able to slot naturally into that game plan. Daly and Carpenter just about can, Malins or TdG definitely can, but at a lower quality* (and Malins is playing like shit this year). I just don't see Steward, Hendy or Hodge being able to do that without losing what brings them up to selectable in the first place, and would be worse at the required gameplan than GF/ED/JC/TdG/MM.

Also worth noting that that's me, and that there's more than 1 way to skin a cat**. I like to pick the best players (full 23 + ~4 for flexibility), in their best positions, and build a gameplan for them. Then fit in the best like-for-like when someone is unavailable. Others like alternatives who shake things up, or have the next best individual as next in line.


* Though I still think that TdG could get there with investment of time in camp and a double handful of caps.
** Though if anyone knows them, I want them evaluated for psychopathic tendencies.

I suppose I'd want my FB to be a good all-round defender, have top-rate kicking ability and be a second playmaker when required. That obviously means good hands, a rugby brain and quality current form. With Furbank and Daly out that leaves two candidates: Marcus and Slade. I'd pick the latter.

I think Ford has looked special of late but I like the thought of four Saints players at 9 - 13 so I'd go for Mitchell, Fin, Dingwall and Freeman. IFW and Roebuck complete the backs line-up.

Freeman at 13 gives back three cover and allows a 6:2 bench with Ford on it ahead of Marcus. That also accounts for Fin getting practice at 12. I'm a fan of Spencer but I see him as a starter only so I'd have Quirke on the bench.

Steward is a ball-catcher and not much else, IMO. Marcus is unlucky if he misses out. I'd prefer a 5:3 bench with Arundell providing a real threat but I doubt we'll see it.

SixAndAHalf wrote: ↑Sun Oct 26, 2025 8:16 pm Exciting squad. I’d like to see:

Genge
LCD
Heyes
Itoje
Chessum
Curry
Underhill
Pollock

Mitchell
FSmith
IFW
Dingwall
Freeman
Roebuck
MSmith

George
Baxter
Stuart
Coles
CCS
Earl
Spencer
Lawrence

In the backline and back row there are multiple combinations we could use so it’s a tricky one. I’ve gone with a Saints heavy approach given we mimick their attacking patterns but would be happy with any combination really.

Im very high on Pollock and Roebuck so would have them in any combination. Full back is the position I’m least confident on but have gone for MSmith given South Africa aren’t on the docket.

For me

1 Genge
2 George
3 Stuart
4 Itoje
5 Chessum
6 T Curry ( if fit otherwise I’d move Underhill to 6 and start Earl at 7)
7 S Underhill
8 CCS ( for me this seems clear given the guy has the ideal skills and power to pick up where T Willis left off and I actually think he has a higher ceiling than T Willis and could develop into a (very long awaited) Dallagio 2.0 )
9 Mitchell
10 M Smith ( too good an exciting a player not to start and Ford and F Smith are conservative and Rob Andrewesque, which admittedly can have its place)
11 wish they hadn’t dropped Radwan! but Fey Wobosu slots in )
12 Ojomoh ( again this seems clear)
13 Lawrence ( why the hell is Slade still being considered at test level??? )
14 Freeman
15 Steward ( not quick but good in air )

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Oct 28, 2025 8:31 am
Steward is a ball-catcher and not much else, IMO. Marcus is unlucky if he misses out. I'd prefer a 5:3 bench with Arundell providing a real threat but I doubt we'll see it.

Other than taking the kicks to touch for Tigers in the last couple of games, having a bigger kicking range than the rest of the England squad, throwing an accurate 15m+ pass under pressure for Radwan to score at the weekend (not unusual in the last season and a bit). Yeah thoroughly one dimensional.

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Oct 28, 2025 9:29 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Oct 28, 2025 8:31 am
Steward is a ball-catcher and not much else, IMO. Marcus is unlucky if he misses out. I'd prefer a 5:3 bench with Arundell providing a real threat but I doubt we'll see it.

Other than taking the kicks to touch for Tigers in the last couple of games, having a bigger kicking range than the rest of the England squad, throwing an accurate 15m+ pass under pressure for Radwan to score at the weekend (not unusual in the last season and a bit). Yeah thoroughly one dimensional.

Very much with you on this. The criticism of Steward is astonishing I think, it's an example of how a narrative can suddenly gain momentum and run away with itself. He was absolutely phenomenal for a period for England (can't remember when it was, a few years ago!) to the point where he was talked about as being on the way to world-class, first name on the team-sheet etc etc. Borthers then decides to start dropping him, picking him, dropping him and we all watched this hugely confident, formidable, dominant full-back suddenly struggle for confidence and start playing badly when to that point, he never really had. Then he get's stepped/beaten by Kolbe twice, which lets face it could easily have happened to Marcus, Malins, Furbank, any of them, but because he's 6'5 Steward gets called 'flat-footed', slow etc etc. He will have made tackles the others would've fallen off I suspect, he's overall a very good tackler. Given a run of 5-10 games, I suspect we'd see him become really formidable again for England. I rate Furbank, Daly, M.Smith and others at FB but the criticism of Steward seems grossly unfair to me.

TheDasher wrote: ↑Tue Oct 28, 2025 10:08 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Oct 28, 2025 9:29 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Oct 28, 2025 8:31 am
Steward is a ball-catcher and not much else, IMO. Marcus is unlucky if he misses out. I'd prefer a 5:3 bench with Arundell providing a real threat but I doubt we'll see it.

Other than taking the kicks to touch for Tigers in the last couple of games, having a bigger kicking range than the rest of the England squad, throwing an accurate 15m+ pass under pressure for Radwan to score at the weekend (not unusual in the last season and a bit). Yeah thoroughly one dimensional.

Very much with you on this. The criticism of Steward is astonishing I think, it's an example of how a narrative can suddenly gain momentum and run away with itself. He was absolutely phenomenal for a period for England (can't remember when it was, a few years ago!) to the point where he was talked about as being on the way to world-class, first name on the team-sheet etc etc. Borthers then decides to start dropping him, picking him, dropping him and we all watched this hugely confident, formidable, dominant full-back suddenly struggle for confidence and start playing badly when to that point, he never really had. Then he get's stepped/beaten by Kolbe twice, which lets face it could easily have happened to Marcus, Malins, Furbank, any of them, but because he's 6'5 Steward gets called 'flat-footed', slow etc etc. He will have made tackles the others would've fallen off I suspect, he's overall a very good tackler. Given a run of 5-10 games, I suspect we'd see him become really formidable again for England. I rate Furbank, Daly, M.Smith and others at FB but the criticism of Steward seems grossly unfair to me.

Dasher I think you’re absolutely right. Fullback selection is a bit horses for courses but I feel England have (yet again) managed to pluck defeat from the jaws of victory by monkeying about trying to turn Marcus Smith into a fullback when he was the most exciting 10 to play for England - possibly ever!

I’m also chuckling at how many of the rugby punditarati seem to think Henry Pollock is ready to start as a test 8. I could see an argument for either him or for that matter Ben Earl slotting their as finishers if the game’s going well but in all honesty I think Pollock needs at least another year power and strength conditioning before I’d even start him at openside or blindside let alone no.8 in a test match. Btw I really do love the pace and flair he brings but there’s a physical dimension needed especially against the size and power of the players the boks and France can “manufacture” at will.

England's social media just released a bunch of photos from training this week, including one of TCurry jumping in a lineout, so I guess he is fit. Wild - had assumed he was just out until December. Bet Sale will be thrilled to see him play 4 games and then need a break afterwards.

I'm not sure if I'd play him against Australia, given he hasn't had any gametime at all. Playing Pepper has the advantage of someone match-fit and in good form, plus him being 6ft4 doesn't hurt in the lineout. Maybe have Curry on the bench and give him some minutes so that he's knocked some of the rust off for the later matches?

It is actually quite tempting to suggest starting Pepper/Pollock/Earl - not necessarily because I think it'd be particularly balanced, but because it would be the perfect trio of irritating (on-field) arseholes and I bet that, by their powers combined, they could probably get an Australian to punch one of them and get sent off.

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Oct 28, 2025 11:34 am
It is actually quite tempting to suggest starting Pepper/Pollock/Earl - not necessarily because I think it'd be particularly balanced, but because it would be the perfect trio of irritating (on-field) arseholes and I bet that, by their powers combined, they could probably get an Australian to punch one of them and get sent off.

Puja

Can't remember who (Bill Nicholson??) said it but the idea was that if you were wavering on selection you should think about picking who the opposition would like least. That trio qualifies.

Is Furbank definitely still first choice at full back (vs Daly)? And should we be building around him given he won’t have played for England for over a year due to injury woes?

Worth noting that IF England go undefeated this Autumn it'll be their longest ever run with the shield (currently 7, record of 10)
https://www.facebook.com/raeburnshield/ ... 4Hurj1Nh1l

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Tue Oct 28, 2025 1:00 pm Worth noting that IF England go undefeated this Autumn it'll be their longest ever run with the shield (currently 7, record of 10)
https://www.facebook.com/raeburnshield/ ... 4Hurj1Nh1l

Cool to see there's actually being a physical shield being made as well.

Puja

Telegraph reckon that Slippy Bastard agrees with me and is starting Pepper alongside Underhill, with TCurry on the bench. They also reckon he's starting Baxter/Heyes, with Genge/Stuart as replacements, and Ford over FSmith. Heavy emphasis on selecting the Argentina tour players over Lions if all of that's true.

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Oct 28, 2025 1:49 pm Telegraph reckon that Slippy Bastard agrees with me and is starting Pepper alongside Underhill, with TCurry on the bench. They also reckon he's starting Baxter/Heyes, with Genge/Stuart as replacements, and Ford over FSmith. Heavy emphasis on selecting the Argentina tour players over Lions if all of that's true.

Puja

I see Pepper as quite a similar style to T Curry so don’t mind this selection at all. Not keen on Earl starting at 8 though.

I think Pepper's deserved it, personally. Really like his all round game

TheNomad wrote: ↑Tue Oct 28, 2025 2:02 pm I think Pepper's deserved it, personally. Really like his all round game

I would have also been happy to see Kenningham at 6 - looks like a ‘glue’ type of player in Richard Hill / Chris Robshaw mold.
One further thought though , is T Curry the type of player that’s actually that impactful from the bench? to me he either starts or sits it out till he’s fully fit to start a test.

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Oct 28, 2025 1:49 pm Telegraph reckon that Slippy Bastard agrees with me and is starting Pepper alongside Underhill, with TCurry on the bench. They also reckon he's starting Baxter/Heyes, with Genge/Stuart as replacements, and Ford over FSmith. Heavy emphasis on selecting the Argentina tour players over Lions if all of that's true.

Puja

Are we that far away from some players rejecting Lions availability? Might SB be on a collision course with his bosses at the RFU? The upper echelons still back the Lions concept to the hilt, don't they?

The extra irony if Fin misses out is that he only got his chance because Marcus accepted being buggered about at FB.

It feels a bit lightweight in the tight carry with no Willis, LCD or Genge.

Chessum and Underhill will need to roll their sleeves up in those exchanges I reckon.

SixAndAHalf wrote: ↑Tue Oct 28, 2025 12:27 pm Is Furbank definitely still first choice at full back (vs Daly)? And should we be building around him given he won’t have played for England for over a year due to injury woes?

If he stays injured much longer he’s going to be pushing for a spot in the England all time XV.

TheDasher wrote: ↑Tue Oct 28, 2025 10:08 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Oct 28, 2025 9:29 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Oct 28, 2025 8:31 am
Steward is a ball-catcher and not much else, IMO. Marcus is unlucky if he misses out. I'd prefer a 5:3 bench with Arundell providing a real threat but I doubt we'll see it.

Other than taking the kicks to touch for Tigers in the last couple of games, having a bigger kicking range than the rest of the England squad, throwing an accurate 15m+ pass under pressure for Radwan to score at the weekend (not unusual in the last season and a bit). Yeah thoroughly one dimensional.

Very much with you on this. The criticism of Steward is astonishing I think, it's an example of how a narrative can suddenly gain momentum and run away with itself. He was absolutely phenomenal for a period for England (can't remember when it was, a few years ago!) to the point where he was talked about as being on the way to world-class, first name on the team-sheet etc etc. Borthers then decides to start dropping him, picking him, dropping him and we all watched this hugely confident, formidable, dominant full-back suddenly struggle for confidence and start playing badly when to that point, he never really had. Then he get's stepped/beaten by Kolbe twice, which lets face it could easily have happened to Marcus, Malins, Furbank, any of them, but because he's 6'5 Steward gets called 'flat-footed', slow etc etc. He will have made tackles the others would've fallen off I suspect, he's overall a very good tackler. Given a run of 5-10 games, I suspect we'd see him become really formidable again for England. I rate Furbank, Daly, M.Smith and others at FB but the criticism of Steward seems grossly unfair to me.

I think the unfortunate red card v Ireland away was also a factor in his confidence issues. It's not always Borthwick's fault. But like you, I think Steward has been a bit unfairly maligned at times in this thread...