RugbyRebels

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Nov 12, 2025 1:50 pm

TheDasher wrote: ↑Wed Nov 12, 2025 12:50 pm

Stom wrote: ↑Wed Nov 12, 2025 12:32 pm

Doesn't bring either of the things we're apparently looking for in a 15. He's a strike runner, not a playmaker nor a kick chaser...

I'd suggest he can chase kicks and he's not not skilful with ball in hand, he's just not a fly half pretending to be a full back. I'd say overall across say 10 tests, Arundel would emerge as a better full back than Marcus Smith, by far.

I'm not against it, but across his adult career, he has started a grand total of 10 top-level games at 15. In the last 2.5 years, he has started 3 games at full-back (last one being March 2024) and he has started 31 games on the wing. He's not a full-back playing out of position anymore - he's a winger who has historically played full-back.

Puja

It's frustrating how these things can happen though frankly - he was a 15 primarily. Jones then picks him on the wing, he was in and out of the team. He then goes to France and it wasn't a hugely successful trip... arguably as he didn't see enough of the ball? Now he's not a starting winger for England, in fact he's not even in the matchday squad this weekend. We have a bit of an issue at full back arguably and yet the best broken field runner we've produced for years who takes a good high ball, who tackles well and who was originally a full back is sitting at home. It's funny how being picked somewhere by someone can effect your trajectory in the future.

Anyway, irrelevant as I don't get the sense Borthers has even thought about Henry at 15.

TheDasher wrote: ↑Wed Nov 12, 2025 2:46 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Nov 12, 2025 1:50 pm

TheDasher wrote: ↑Wed Nov 12, 2025 12:50 pm

I'd suggest he can chase kicks and he's not not skilful with ball in hand, he's just not a fly half pretending to be a full back. I'd say overall across say 10 tests, Arundel would emerge as a better full back than Marcus Smith, by far.

I'm not against it, but across his adult career, he has started a grand total of 10 top-level games at 15. In the last 2.5 years, he has started 3 games at full-back (last one being March 2024) and he has started 31 games on the wing. He's not a full-back playing out of position anymore - he's a winger who has historically played full-back.

Puja

It's frustrating how these things can happen though frankly - he was a 15 primarily. Jones then picks him on the wing, he was in and out of the team. He then goes to France and it wasn't a hugely successful trip... arguably as he didn't see enough of the ball? Now he's not a starting winger for England, in fact he's not even in the matchday squad this weekend. We have a bit of an issue at full back arguably and yet the best broken field runner we've produced for years who takes a good high ball, who tackles well and who was originally a full back is sitting at home. It's funny how being picked somewhere by someone can effect your trajectory in the future.

Anyway, irrelevant as I don't get the sense Borthers has even thought about Henry at 15.

Mr Select Utility Players will have 100% thought about it. Arundell isn't that great in the air and has no real kicking game (but like OHC he's got some range but no real accuracy). The ABs looked iffy under the high ball last weekend so I'm expecting us to target that, we've lost our best back at carrying through contact so I imagine we're going to try and share that workload between Lawrence, Steward and Roebuck for the first 50 to 60 mins and then bring on Marcus for Freddie in order to up the tempo. Arundell isn't really fitting into that game plan unless you drop IFW.

Arundell is a bit unlucky to be on the outside but I don't see what he's offering that we don't have covered by the two players that are likely to play 15 over the course of the 80 mins. It'll be interesting to see if he gets another go Vs Argentina.

FKAS wrote: ↑Wed Nov 12, 2025 2:53 pm

TheDasher wrote: ↑Wed Nov 12, 2025 2:46 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Nov 12, 2025 1:50 pm

I'm not against it, but across his adult career, he has started a grand total of 10 top-level games at 15. In the last 2.5 years, he has started 3 games at full-back (last one being March 2024) and he has started 31 games on the wing. He's not a full-back playing out of position anymore - he's a winger who has historically played full-back.

Puja

It's frustrating how these things can happen though frankly - he was a 15 primarily. Jones then picks him on the wing, he was in and out of the team. He then goes to France and it wasn't a hugely successful trip... arguably as he didn't see enough of the ball? Now he's not a starting winger for England, in fact he's not even in the matchday squad this weekend. We have a bit of an issue at full back arguably and yet the best broken field runner we've produced for years who takes a good high ball, who tackles well and who was originally a full back is sitting at home. It's funny how being picked somewhere by someone can effect your trajectory in the future.

Anyway, irrelevant as I don't get the sense Borthers has even thought about Henry at 15.

Mr Select Utility Players will have 100% thought about it. Arundell isn't that great in the air and has no real kicking game (but like OHC he's got some range but no real accuracy). The ABs looked iffy under the high ball last weekend so I'm expecting us to target that, we've lost our best back at carrying through contact so I imagine we're going to try and share that workload between Lawrence, Steward and Roebuck for the first 50 to 60 mins and then bring on Marcus for Freddie in order to up the tempo. Arundell isn't really fitting into that game plan unless you drop IFW.

Arundell is a bit unlucky to be on the outside but I don't see what he's offering that we don't have covered by the two players that are likely to play 15 over the course of the 80 mins. It'll be interesting to see if he gets another go Vs Argentina.

In terms of not seeing what he's offering that we don't have covered by the other two players who play 15... How about absolutely phenomenal, world-class pace, massive attacking danger and intent from deep, joining the line, not just line-breaking like Marcus but proper scoring from nowhere style pace... That's the obvious one.

I think Arundell is pretty good under the high ball actually - look we haven't all watched him hanging high in the sky from 15 a lot at international level so you can't picture him doing a Freddie Steward on a Freddie Steward good day... but I suspect he can take the high balls Marcus can, as I've said a few times, he's played 15 quite a lot.

If Roebuck/Freeman on one wing, IFW on the other is what Steve is likely to stick with, with only two backs on the bench, I'd definitely have a shot at getting Arundel in that side if I was borthers.

Let's see, I'm hoping Steward does well, I'm still a big fan!

Pick a lesser player because he'd be in his club shirt number or pick a better player who can switch to the role well at international level with coaching? Over the years, mainly over the 6 shirt, has it been our most-debated subject?

TheDasher wrote: ↑Wed Nov 12, 2025 2:46 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Nov 12, 2025 1:50 pm

TheDasher wrote: ↑Wed Nov 12, 2025 12:50 pm

I'd suggest he can chase kicks and he's not not skilful with ball in hand, he's just not a fly half pretending to be a full back. I'd say overall across say 10 tests, Arundel would emerge as a better full back than Marcus Smith, by far.

I'm not against it, but across his adult career, he has started a grand total of 10 top-level games at 15. In the last 2.5 years, he has started 3 games at full-back (last one being March 2024) and he has started 31 games on the wing. He's not a full-back playing out of position anymore - he's a winger who has historically played full-back.

Puja

It's frustrating how these things can happen though frankly - he was a 15 primarily. Jones then picks him on the wing, he was in and out of the team. He then goes to France and it wasn't a hugely successful trip... arguably as he didn't see enough of the ball? Now he's not a starting winger for England, in fact he's not even in the matchday squad this weekend. We have a bit of an issue at full back arguably and yet the best broken field runner we've produced for years who takes a good high ball, who tackles well and who was originally a full back is sitting at home. It's funny how being picked somewhere by someone can effect your trajectory in the future.

Anyway, irrelevant as I don't get the sense Borthers has even thought about Henry at 15.

What has happened to FB Carpenter, who has looked a very good all rounder. Is he injured?

Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Nov 12, 2025 3:22 pm Pick a lesser player because he'd be in his club shirt number or pick a better player who can switch to the role well at international level with coaching? Over the years, mainly over the 6 shirt, has it been our most-debated subject?

The answer is... it depends on the player and the position!

Itoje to 8 is not the same as Arundell to 15 for instance.

CCS to 8 wasn't a big deal but Curry to 8 was.

I love the idea of Arundell at 15 but, as always, he needs to play there for his club. Should England want him to attack from deep from the back or join the line on the shoulder of the 13 then they can achieve that even if he is selected in the 11/14 jersey.

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Wed Nov 12, 2025 2:07 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Nov 12, 2025 1:50 pmI'm not against it, but across his adult career, he has started a grand total of 10 top-level games at 15. In the last 2.5 years, he has started 3 games at full-back (last one being March 2024) and he has started 31 games on the wing. He's not a full-back playing out of position anymore - he's a winger who has historically played full-back.

Sounds perfect for the 13 shirt, sat outside Steward

It would probably feel like he was sitting down given the disparity in top end pace…

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Nov 12, 2025 4:03 pm

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Wed Nov 12, 2025 2:07 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Nov 12, 2025 1:50 pmI'm not against it, but across his adult career, he has started a grand total of 10 top-level games at 15. In the last 2.5 years, he has started 3 games at full-back (last one being March 2024) and he has started 31 games on the wing. He's not a full-back playing out of position anymore - he's a winger who has historically played full-back.

Sounds perfect for the 13 shirt, sat outside Steward

It would probably feel like he was sitting down given the disparity in top end pace…

TheDasher wrote: ↑Wed Nov 12, 2025 3:52 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Nov 12, 2025 3:22 pm Pick a lesser player because he'd be in his club shirt number or pick a better player who can switch to the role well at international level with coaching? Over the years, mainly over the 6 shirt, has it been our most-debated subject?

The answer is... it depends on the player and the position!

Itoje to 8 is not the same as Arundell to 15 for instance.

CCS to 8 wasn't a big deal but Curry to 8 was.

I wonder if that crossed SB's mind when he got the news about Willis.

TheDasher wrote: ↑Wed Nov 12, 2025 3:09 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Wed Nov 12, 2025 2:53 pm

TheDasher wrote: ↑Wed Nov 12, 2025 2:46 pm

It's frustrating how these things can happen though frankly - he was a 15 primarily. Jones then picks him on the wing, he was in and out of the team. He then goes to France and it wasn't a hugely successful trip... arguably as he didn't see enough of the ball? Now he's not a starting winger for England, in fact he's not even in the matchday squad this weekend. We have a bit of an issue at full back arguably and yet the best broken field runner we've produced for years who takes a good high ball, who tackles well and who was originally a full back is sitting at home. It's funny how being picked somewhere by someone can effect your trajectory in the future.

Anyway, irrelevant as I don't get the sense Borthers has even thought about Henry at 15.

Mr Select Utility Players will have 100% thought about it. Arundell isn't that great in the air and has no real kicking game (but like OHC he's got some range but no real accuracy). The ABs looked iffy under the high ball last weekend so I'm expecting us to target that, we've lost our best back at carrying through contact so I imagine we're going to try and share that workload between Lawrence, Steward and Roebuck for the first 50 to 60 mins and then bring on Marcus for Freddie in order to up the tempo. Arundell isn't really fitting into that game plan unless you drop IFW.

Arundell is a bit unlucky to be on the outside but I don't see what he's offering that we don't have covered by the two players that are likely to play 15 over the course of the 80 mins. It'll be interesting to see if he gets another go Vs Argentina.

In terms of not seeing what he's offering that we don't have covered by the other two players who play 15... How about absolutely phenomenal, world-class pace, massive attacking danger and intent from deep, joining the line, not just line-breaking like Marcus but proper scoring from nowhere style pace... That's the obvious one.

I think Arundell is pretty good under the high ball actually - look we haven't all watched him hanging high in the sky from 15 a lot at international level so you can't picture him doing a Freddie Steward on a Freddie Steward good day... but I suspect he can take the high balls Marcus can, as I've said a few times, he's played 15 quite a lot.

If Roebuck/Freeman on one wing, IFW on the other is what Steve is likely to stick with, with only two backs on the bench, I'd definitely have a shot at getting Arundel in that side if I was borthers.

Let's see, I'm hoping Steward does well, I'm still a big fan!

He's never played fullback at international level and barely played 15 at club level in recent times. I'm open to an Arundell experiment at 15 but not against NZ when it doesn't fit the game plan. If we were going to do it then Vs Fiji would have been the one as opposed to lobbing him in the deep end Vs the ABs.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Nov 12, 2025 4:02 pm I love the idea of Arundell at 15 but, as always, he needs to play there for his club. Should England want him to attack from deep from the back or join the line on the shoulder of the 13 then they can achieve that even if he is selected in the 11/14 jersey.

I think it's less about that, tbh, and more about the fact he doesn't have the skill set we're currently looking for in a 15.

Which is, I think, fair.

But I also think he's probably jumped ahead of a few for one of the wing spots. Roebuck is the "incumbant", and hasn't done much wrong. But come the 6N, who knows. I'd be pretty happy with that situation, rather than trying to shoehorn Arundell in.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Nov 12, 2025 4:02 pm I love the idea of Arundell at 15 but, as always, he needs to play there for his club. Should England want him to attack from deep from the back or join the line on the shoulder of the 13 then they can achieve that even if he is selected in the 11/14 jersey.

I would love to see him at 15, irrespective of not playing there for club. Ditto MSmith at 9. Staggered we haven’t developed him as a 10/9 yet opted for 10/15

p/d wrote: ↑Wed Nov 12, 2025 5:00 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Nov 12, 2025 4:02 pm I love the idea of Arundell at 15 but, as always, he needs to play there for his club. Should England want him to attack from deep from the back or join the line on the shoulder of the 13 then they can achieve that even if he is selected in the 11/14 jersey.

I would love to see him at 15, irrespective of not playing there for club. Ditto MSmith at 9. Staggered we haven’t developed him as a 10/9 yet opted for 10/15

Smith being able to play 9 and 10 would be wonderful from a squad perspective... 9 has become so bloody technical these days with all the box kicking so it'd take quite a lot of adjustment. Great if he could pull it off.

Maybe it’s just the nature of arguing on the internet but the Arundell at fullback thing seems a strange thing to be bothered by at this point.

Yes he is very fast, yes he is a good broken field runner (not that I think we’ve really seen this in… years?) but the other arguments for him only go as far as he might be okay at catching a high ball or tackling or kicking.

It doesn’t feel much different to suggesting we put IFW there to me. Even Roebuck at fullback seems a huge amount more logical to me. It certainly feels like it’s currently much easier to make use of his talents out on the wing than anywhere else.

He’s got plenty of time and will probably get some chances there at some point (assuming it’s even his favoured position) for Bath or in a lesser game for England.

TheDasher wrote: ↑Wed Nov 12, 2025 7:56 pm

p/d wrote: ↑Wed Nov 12, 2025 5:00 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Nov 12, 2025 4:02 pm I love the idea of Arundell at 15 but, as always, he needs to play there for his club. Should England want him to attack from deep from the back or join the line on the shoulder of the 13 then they can achieve that even if he is selected in the 11/14 jersey.

I would love to see him at 15, irrespective of not playing there for club. Ditto MSmith at 9. Staggered we haven’t developed him as a 10/9 yet opted for 10/15

Smith being able to play 9 and 10 would be wonderful from a squad perspective... 9 has become so bloody technical these days with all the box kicking so it'd take quite a lot of adjustment. Great if he could pull it off.

Ford has apparently been training at 9 a little bit so Marcus might be as well. Would open potential 7:1 bench splits in future.

FKAS wrote: ↑Thu Nov 13, 2025 7:54 am

TheDasher wrote: ↑Wed Nov 12, 2025 7:56 pm

p/d wrote: ↑Wed Nov 12, 2025 5:00 pm

I would love to see him at 15, irrespective of not playing there for club. Ditto MSmith at 9. Staggered we haven’t developed him as a 10/9 yet opted for 10/15

Smith being able to play 9 and 10 would be wonderful from a squad perspective... 9 has become so bloody technical these days with all the box kicking so it'd take quite a lot of adjustment. Great if he could pull it off.

Ford has apparently been training at 9 a little bit so Marcus might be as well. Would open potential 7:1 bench splits in future.

Marvellous news. Ford could have been a bloody good 9

All Blacks named:

1. Ethan de Groot, 2. Codie Taylor, 3. Fletcher Newell, 4. Scott Barrett (c), 5. Fabian Holland, 6. Simon Parker, 7. Ardie Savea, 8. Peter Lakai, 9. Cam Roigard, 10. Beauden Barrett, 11. Leicester Fainga'anuku, 12. Quinn Tupaea, 13. Billy Proctor, 14. Leroy Carter, 15. Will Jordan

Bench: 16. Samisoni Taukei'aho, 17. Tamaiti Williams, 18. Pasilio Tosi, 19. Josh Lord, 20. Wallace Sititi, 21. Cortez Ratima, 22. Anton Lienert-Brown, 23. Damian McKenzie

Lizard wrote: ↑Thu Nov 13, 2025 8:17 am All Blacks named:

1. Ethan de Groot, 2. Codie Taylor, 3. Fletcher Newell, 4. Scott Barrett (c), 5. Fabian Holland, 6. Simon Parker, 7. Ardie Savea, 8. Peter Lakai, 9. Cam Roigard, 10. Beauden Barrett, 11. Leicester Fainga'anuku, 12. Quinn Tupaea, 13. Billy Proctor, 14. Leroy Carter, 15. Will Jordan

Bench: 16. Samisoni Taukei'aho, 17. Tamaiti Williams, 18. Pasilio Tosi, 19. Josh Lord, 20. Wallace Sititi, 21. Cortez Ratima, 22. Anton Lienert-Brown, 23. Damian McKenzie

Interesting that NZ feel the need to bring Parker in at 6 - worried about how much Scotland took the piss out of your lineout in the second half last week or worried about England's forward power (or potentially looking to attack both given Chessum's absence?). It does weaken you significantly in the loose by dropping Sititi though.

Puja

Big calls at 6 and 13.

I can see the logic of Parker with Setiti off the bench. Parker needs to show he's the big tough six at international.level they are hoping for though - sometimes not been as involved as he'd have liked in his previous games.

It will have been tempting to stick with Fainga'anuku at 13 too bit I think that's the right call. Proctor is very talented and I think they look better with a power winger so with Clarke out seems right. Big game for Proctor, may go better outside a slightly more orthodox twelve than Barrett.

I think Razor is trying to build a bench that will come on and win from behind in the last 20. So using Sititi as an impact player. Taukei'aho Is pretty explosive, and we know what DMac can do.

Not 100% sure how the ghost of ALB fits into that theory though.

I’ve gotta say that 4am is a hell if a time to get up to watch a loss, though.

FKAS wrote: ↑Thu Nov 13, 2025 7:54 am Ford has apparently been training at 9 a little bit so Marcus might be as well. Would open potential 7:1 bench splits in future.

Welcome to... what? 2018?
It just means that they can step in when the SH is at the bottom of a ruck, receiving treatment, or has been shown a yellow card. SH is probably the most instinctive position on the pitch, and needs to be grooved with lots of game time there.

Ford and MSmith would both have made excellent France-style SHs (as I've said for years - see also Ryan Lamb, Kyle Eastmond and a few others) - had they been tried there at U16 level.
The SH/FH combos are essentially all SHs who learned FH play play, or have been playing both from a very young age. I can't think of a single FH who then learnt SH play to the standard of starting a PRC match there during an injury crisis.

Interesting that they've brought in an organiser at 13 and another midfield general on the bench should they need it. Reinforcing their midfield after Scotland or trying to bring more of a blitz? Fainga'anuku does add some more height to the back three which will be a consideration for NZ as having Reece and Carter on the wings would have made them very targetable by Ford and Roebuck/Steward.

The extra height and physicality of Parker at six is an interesting call given what England have gone for in the backrow. NZ maybe going to try and do a number on us in the tight in the first half and go after our set piece? They've certainly got some excellent scrummaging props (even if de Groot cheats like a bastard).

Shaping up for potentially very interesting 80 mins. I wonder if the England selection was praying on Robertson's mind and hence Lord and Sititi who've been playing well are kept in reserve and the experienced Leinert-Brown is there to steady the ship in defence.

Lizard wrote: ↑Thu Nov 13, 2025 9:22 am Not 100% sure how the ghost of ALB fits into that theory though.

Him and Ben Spencer fighting it out for the role of least impactful "Impact Player"

Puja

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Thu Nov 13, 2025 9:30 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Thu Nov 13, 2025 7:54 am Ford has apparently been training at 9 a little bit so Marcus might be as well. Would open potential 7:1 bench splits in future.

Welcome to... what? 2018?
It just means that they can step in when the SH is at the bottom of a ruck, receiving treatment, or has been shown a yellow card. SH is probably the most instinctive position on the pitch, and needs to be grooved with lots of game time there.

Ford and MSmith would both have made excellent France-style SHs (as I've said for years - see also Ryan Lamb, Kyle Eastmond and a few others) - had they been tried there at U16 level.
The SH/FH combos are essentially all SHs who learned FH play play, or have been playing both from a very young age. I can't think of a single FH who then learnt SH play to the standard of starting a PRC match there during an injury crisis.

I always tended to look down on the idea of Ford playing 9 over the last decade or so when it's been brought up but the only time I've seen him do it (during a Wigglesworth sin bin period Vs Saints at the Gardens) he was phenomenal. Couple of on the money box kicks and then a drop goal from a goal line drop out.

With it being used in the context of a 7:1 bench you are probably only ever looking at it being used in the case of an injury or if the 9 is completely gassed so for the final 10 mins.