RugbyRebels

rowan wrote:The military basically ran Turkey up until Erdogan's reign. That had been the case since the collapse of the Ottoman Empire at the end of WWI, and was necessary to enforce strictly secular government on a 99% Muslim majority nation. What changed? The military refused to support the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Yes, Erdogan had already come to power at that time, but the army maintained control. In 2006, in fact, they raised the specter of a coup to block Erdogan's choice of a religiously-inclined president. Behind the scenes, however, the balance of power was changing. If you're in NATO and you refuse to follow orders, there are serious consequences to pay. It appears from every conceivable angle that this was the point at which the military began to crumble and Erdogan suddenly transformed into superman. Within a year of the threatened coup in 2006 he had thrown the entire military brass in prison over a plot that was later proved to have been fabricated. They've all been released since, of course, but there were no consequences for those who put them in there. As for the Gulenists, former allies of Erdogan's, it is well-known that they have been in collusion with the CIA for a very long time. That is because the madrasas they operate throughout the Middle East and Africa were partly designed from the outset to train anti-Communist jihadis. Hence the presence of Gulen himself in a Pennsylvanian mansion. The Gulenists have people throughout the Turkish government, armed forces, schools and other institutions, and are regarded as a parallel state. But Erdogan has been systematically purging them since long before the attempted "coup." So taking all this into account, would Gulen himself want to organize a coup? I doubt it very much. But members of his organization may have easily been persuaded otherwise, especially the youngsters, and it appears that the vast majority of those involved were mere kids barely out of high school. My guess is, the CIA organized it, then pulled out at the criticial moment, leaving these kids standing around guarding bridges and airports like fools, as they waited for the support that never came. They were the pawns, and more than a few were killed by enraged mobs as the whole thing fizzed before it had even really got started. Meanwhile, Erdogan had been live on TV the whole time, telling his people to go out and fight the putschists. No wonder he called it a 'Gift from God!' The putschists had not only failed dismally to capture him or fire on his plane as he flew directly back into the country's major airport, they couldn't even close down the TV stations he was talking on. If it wasn't a 'Gift from God,' it was certainly a gift from someone. Cui bono? The answer to that was clear the moment the attempted "coup" began. How does that benefit America? Because they are hand-in-glove with the leadership here, regardless what you may see in the media. Turkey is of the utmost strategical importance to the US, with so much at stake in Iraq & Syria, Iran on the eastern border and Russia just across the Black Sea. So if they can't rely on the military, and they certainly can't rely on the democratic will of the majority, then they need to have a leader in place that they can rely on, & they've been supporting him every step of the way. As for the Gulenist madrasas, their use-by-date has expired, which is why they've been thrown under the bus on this occasion.

UGagain wrote:The haters always set up their arguments in a binary way.

Sandydragon wrote:Not withstanding any links to Gulen (has Turkey yet to request extradition?) it does seem odd that the Turkish govt was able to move so quickly to round up thousands of opposition figures. That is a remarkably quick investigation, by any standards.

rowan wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:Not withstanding any links to Gulen (has Turkey yet to request extradition?) it does seem odd that the Turkish govt was able to move so quickly to round up thousands of opposition figures. That is a remarkably quick investigation, by any standards.

Yes, Turkey has been demanding Gulen's extradition from the outset. There's no evidence against him, but Ankara has pointed out there was no evidence against Osama bin Laden either. Meanwhile they are talking about bringing back the death penalty here - for the express purpose of lynching Gulen if & when he is delivered, it would appear. But personally I don't think the US will give him up so easily. The man was working with the CIA for decades and they'd no doubt prefer he kept his mouth shut about all that. Meanwhile, he may also serve Erdogan better this way. We live in an age where everything has become a charade.

Sandydragon wrote:

rowan wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:Not withstanding any links to Gulen (has Turkey yet to request extradition?) it does seem odd that the Turkish govt was able to move so quickly to round up thousands of opposition figures. That is a remarkably quick investigation, by any standards.

Yes, Turkey has been demanding Gulen's extradition from the outset. There's no evidence against him, but Ankara has pointed out there was no evidence against Osama bin Laden either. Meanwhile they are talking about bringing back the death penalty here - for the express purpose of lynching Gulen if & when he is delivered, it would appear. But personally I don't think the US will give him up so easily. The man was working with the CIA for decades and they'd no doubt prefer he kept his mouth shut about all that. Meanwhile, he may also serve Erdogan better this way. We live in an age where everything has become a charade.

Yet media reports state that Turkey has yet to submit extradition paperwork, as opposed to just demand in public.

rowan wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

rowan wrote:
Yes, Turkey has been demanding Gulen's extradition from the outset. There's no evidence against him, but Ankara has pointed out there was no evidence against Osama bin Laden either. Meanwhile they are talking about bringing back the death penalty here - for the express purpose of lynching Gulen if & when he is delivered, it would appear. But personally I don't think the US will give him up so easily. The man was working with the CIA for decades and they'd no doubt prefer he kept his mouth shut about all that. Meanwhile, he may also serve Erdogan better this way. We live in an age where everything has become a charade.

Yet media reports state that Turkey has yet to submit extradition paperwork, as opposed to just demand in public.

Wasn't aware of that. But they've certainly been ferociously demanding his extradition from the outset. I see this on TV, and read about it in the newspapers, every day. So this probably confirms the last few points I made in my previous post. He serves a more useful purpose right where he is...

Sandydragon wrote:

rowan wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:
Yet media reports state that Turkey has yet to submit extradition paperwork, as opposed to just demand in public.

Wasn't aware of that. But they've certainly been ferociously demanding his extradition from the outset. I see this on TV, and read about it in the newspapers, every day. So this probably confirms the last few points I made in my previous post. He serves a more useful purpose right where he is...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... up-attempt

Last week they were still in the preparing to request stage. From what I understand, no evidence has been submitted to US courts yet to support an extradition, although Turkey has been publicly demanding his extradition for some time.

I suspect given the public anger yet lack of any formal action, the Turkish government is quite happy for him to remain where he is. Perhaps the evidence is less overwhelming than they publicly suggest and he serves a purpose as a target for anger in the US; a nice bogey man for Erdogan.

rowan wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

rowan wrote:
Wasn't aware of that. But they've certainly been ferociously demanding his extradition from the outset. I see this on TV, and read about it in the newspapers, every day. So this probably confirms the last few points I made in my previous post. He serves a more useful purpose right where he is...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... up-attempt

Last week they were still in the preparing to request stage. From what I understand, no evidence has been submitted to US courts yet to support an extradition, although Turkey has been publicly demanding his extradition for some time.

I suspect given the public anger yet lack of any formal action, the Turkish government is quite happy for him to remain where he is. Perhaps the evidence is less overwhelming than they publicly suggest and he serves a purpose as a target for anger in the US; a nice bogey man for Erdogan.

That plus the fact that in order to submit the necessary paperwork for Gulen's extradition they would actually need to have some concrete evidence against him . . .

rowan wrote:So the noise is getting louder here as the crowds dwindle. I was in the square yesterday and within a few hundred yards of the place my friend and I couldn't even hear ourselves talking. The music they were playing was deafening. Yet there couldn't have been more than a hundred or so people at the rally - and all of them waving their flags and scarves like diehards. So the music keeps getting louder, and the crowds keep getting smaller. Bizarre...