RugbyRebels

Sandydragon wrote:Not withstanding any links to Gulen (has Turkey yet to request extradition?) it does seem odd that the Turkish govt was able to move so quickly to round up thousands of opposition figures. That is a remarkably quick investigation, by any standards.

Yes, Turkey has been demanding Gulen's extradition from the outset. There's no evidence against him, but Ankara has pointed out there was no evidence against Osama bin Laden either. Meanwhile they are talking about bringing back the death penalty here - for the express purpose of lynching Gulen if & when he is delivered, it would appear. But personally I don't think the US will give him up so easily. The man was working with the CIA for decades and they'd no doubt prefer he kept his mouth shut about all that. Meanwhile, he may also serve Erdogan better this way. We live in an age where everything has become a charade.

rowan wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:Not withstanding any links to Gulen (has Turkey yet to request extradition?) it does seem odd that the Turkish govt was able to move so quickly to round up thousands of opposition figures. That is a remarkably quick investigation, by any standards.

Yes, Turkey has been demanding Gulen's extradition from the outset. There's no evidence against him, but Ankara has pointed out there was no evidence against Osama bin Laden either. Meanwhile they are talking about bringing back the death penalty here - for the express purpose of lynching Gulen if & when he is delivered, it would appear. But personally I don't think the US will give him up so easily. The man was working with the CIA for decades and they'd no doubt prefer he kept his mouth shut about all that. Meanwhile, he may also serve Erdogan better this way. We live in an age where everything has become a charade.

Yet media reports state that Turkey has yet to submit extradition paperwork, as opposed to just demand in public.

Sandydragon wrote:

rowan wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:Not withstanding any links to Gulen (has Turkey yet to request extradition?) it does seem odd that the Turkish govt was able to move so quickly to round up thousands of opposition figures. That is a remarkably quick investigation, by any standards.

Yes, Turkey has been demanding Gulen's extradition from the outset. There's no evidence against him, but Ankara has pointed out there was no evidence against Osama bin Laden either. Meanwhile they are talking about bringing back the death penalty here - for the express purpose of lynching Gulen if & when he is delivered, it would appear. But personally I don't think the US will give him up so easily. The man was working with the CIA for decades and they'd no doubt prefer he kept his mouth shut about all that. Meanwhile, he may also serve Erdogan better this way. We live in an age where everything has become a charade.

Yet media reports state that Turkey has yet to submit extradition paperwork, as opposed to just demand in public.

Wasn't aware of that. But they've certainly been ferociously demanding his extradition from the outset. I see this on TV, and read about it in the newspapers, every day. So this probably confirms the last few points I made in my previous post. He serves a more useful purpose right where he is...

rowan wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

rowan wrote:
Yes, Turkey has been demanding Gulen's extradition from the outset. There's no evidence against him, but Ankara has pointed out there was no evidence against Osama bin Laden either. Meanwhile they are talking about bringing back the death penalty here - for the express purpose of lynching Gulen if & when he is delivered, it would appear. But personally I don't think the US will give him up so easily. The man was working with the CIA for decades and they'd no doubt prefer he kept his mouth shut about all that. Meanwhile, he may also serve Erdogan better this way. We live in an age where everything has become a charade.

Yet media reports state that Turkey has yet to submit extradition paperwork, as opposed to just demand in public.

Wasn't aware of that. But they've certainly been ferociously demanding his extradition from the outset. I see this on TV, and read about it in the newspapers, every day. So this probably confirms the last few points I made in my previous post. He serves a more useful purpose right where he is...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... up-attempt

Last week they were still in the preparing to request stage. From what I understand, no evidence has been submitted to US courts yet to support an extradition, although Turkey has been publicly demanding his extradition for some time.

I suspect given the public anger yet lack of any formal action, the Turkish government is quite happy for him to remain where he is. Perhaps the evidence is less overwhelming than they publicly suggest and he serves a purpose as a target for anger in the US; a nice bogey man for Erdogan.

Sandydragon wrote:

rowan wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:
Yet media reports state that Turkey has yet to submit extradition paperwork, as opposed to just demand in public.

Wasn't aware of that. But they've certainly been ferociously demanding his extradition from the outset. I see this on TV, and read about it in the newspapers, every day. So this probably confirms the last few points I made in my previous post. He serves a more useful purpose right where he is...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... up-attempt

Last week they were still in the preparing to request stage. From what I understand, no evidence has been submitted to US courts yet to support an extradition, although Turkey has been publicly demanding his extradition for some time.

I suspect given the public anger yet lack of any formal action, the Turkish government is quite happy for him to remain where he is. Perhaps the evidence is less overwhelming than they publicly suggest and he serves a purpose as a target for anger in the US; a nice bogey man for Erdogan.

That plus the fact that in order to submit the necessary paperwork for Gulen's extradition they would actually need to have some concrete evidence against him . . .

rowan wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

rowan wrote:
Wasn't aware of that. But they've certainly been ferociously demanding his extradition from the outset. I see this on TV, and read about it in the newspapers, every day. So this probably confirms the last few points I made in my previous post. He serves a more useful purpose right where he is...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... up-attempt

Last week they were still in the preparing to request stage. From what I understand, no evidence has been submitted to US courts yet to support an extradition, although Turkey has been publicly demanding his extradition for some time.

I suspect given the public anger yet lack of any formal action, the Turkish government is quite happy for him to remain where he is. Perhaps the evidence is less overwhelming than they publicly suggest and he serves a purpose as a target for anger in the US; a nice bogey man for Erdogan.

That plus the fact that in order to submit the necessary paperwork for Gulen's extradition they would actually need to have some concrete evidence against him . . .

Quite. So if the evidence is overwhelming, then they should produce it. At best, Gulen looks like a useful soundbite and at some point the Turks will back off this, lest they properly annoy one of their biggest allies.

Wow, this has all the makings of a Hollywood thriller - courageous hero, miraculous escapes, evil villains,,,

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan’s plane was saved from being shot down on the night of the July 15 failed coup attempt when an F-16 fighter jet flown by coup plotting pilots was forced to turn back and refuel, according to sources cited by pro-government daily Yeni Şafak.



http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/erdoga ... sCatID=341

So there is going to be a massive rally, entitled the 'Democracy and Martyrs Parade' in Istanbul this evening. Some are predicting millions will attend. Almost a month after coup they are still celebrating/protesting/whatever in the city center nightly. I can hear them from my apartment and this goes on until two or three in the morning, all fully encouraged, of course. There is still practically nothing else on the TV news channels, with international stories only just beginning to creep back in over the past few days or so. & the press is still full of stories about this 'heroic victory for democracy.' But that's all controlled, of course, as a State of Emergency continues here. But actually it doesn't seem like there's a State of Emergency at all. In every other respect, it's business as usual...

Grandiose statements made so far: This was Turkey's 'second independence war,' and the president will approve 'the return of the death penalty if parliament votes for it.' Halcyon days indeed & more than a million wave their flags cheerfully.

Top marks for milking a situation.

Well, while I personally think this whole business is simply the culmination of a post-2003 transfer of US support from the military to The Leader behind the scenes, the euphoria is perhaps understandable. Secularism is something that was imposed on Turkey and held in place by an all-powerful military against the will of the majority. But now they have their Islam back. Calling it the 'second independence war' is going a bit far, but it has certainly been a revolution of sorts, and not all of this is bad.

Meanwhile, a year ago today: http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/unarme ... sCatID=338

So the noise is getting louder here as the crowds dwindle. I was in the square yesterday and within a few hundred yards of the place my friend and I couldn't even hear ourselves talking. The music they were playing was deafening. Yet there couldn't have been more than a hundred or so people at the rally - and all of them waving their flags and scarves like diehards. So the music keeps getting louder, and the crowds keep getting smaller. Bizarre...

rowan wrote:So the noise is getting louder here as the crowds dwindle. I was in the square yesterday and within a few hundred yards of the place my friend and I couldn't even hear ourselves talking. The music they were playing was deafening. Yet there couldn't have been more than a hundred or so people at the rally - and all of them waving their flags and scarves like diehards. So the music keeps getting louder, and the crowds keep getting smaller. Bizarre...

Standard practice in most night clubs in the UK. They'll have the smoke machine going next...

Noise is power here, politicians don't speak - they roar, even when they're weeny 5'5 geeks like former PM Davetoglu was. & They really want to maintain this illusionary 'post-revolution' atmosphere of euphoria, which means lots and lots of noise. I can hear it from my home, and it continues till after 2am. Then at 430am comes the first Call to Prayer, two hours earlier than scheduled and about five times as loud as it was a decade ago...

Erdogan the movie soon to hit our screens. Surely in the horror genre. I can hardly wait.

http://www.trt.net.tr/espanol/video/cul ... =hootsuite

He's probably directing it himself. We can be pretty certain he wrote the script...

Over 50 killed in a terrorist attack in the South-East of the country yesterday. The victims were mainly (if not all) Kurdish, attending the wedding of an HDP member. The HDP is a Kurdish political party that gained popularity before the last elections through its practical policies and actually passed the 10% threshold required for direct representation in government. Their growing popularity coincided with a dip in popularity for the increasingly authoratative ruling party, the AKP, who failed to win a majority, refused to enter a coalition, and forced a re-run election. Meanwhile, a terrorist hit Ankara, killing over 100 mostly Kurdish demonstrators at a 'Peace & Democracy' rally. The resultant sense of insecurity saw a slightly improved showing by the AKP in the re-run election (somewhat ironically), and they scraped through with the required majority. The latest attack, in the South-East, follows a series of attacks on soldiers and policemen attributed to the PKK Kurdish Rebels (considered terrorists here, in the US and EU). It has been blamed on ISIS. The attack in Ankara was also blamed on ISIS, and so were various other bomb attacks against (mostly Kurdish) civilian targets.

Turkey currently invading Syria, ostensibly to fight 'ISIS,' while the president blames Syria for Turkey's recent vulnerability to 'ISIS' & PKK attacks. They're not big on subtlety here . . .

Read an article the other day about how prisoners (excepting the most severe offenses) were being freed from prison early to make way for coup plotters. Given the number of arrests, there were more plotters in this coup than planners for Overlord.

Interesting times.

Interesting indeed. We're seeing almost a century of civilization & democracy being unravelled here. I'm not saying it's all bad, but most of it is. When I arrived they had a 'Zero Problems with Neighbors' policy in place and had barely been involved in any wars at all since WWI - with the notable exception of Korea to fulfill their requirement as a proud NATO member. They were also making progress with the Kurds. But all that went flying out the window when the incumbent government failed to win a majority in the last elections, largely due to the inroads made by the Kurdish party - who gained the required 10% threshold for representation in government. There were plenty of signs before this, of course, but the past year has been stupefying.

rowan wrote:Interesting indeed. We're seeing almost a century of civilization & democracy being unravelled here. I'm not saying it's all bad, but most of it is. When I arrived they had a 'Zero Problems with Neighbors' policy in place and had barely been involved in any wars at all since WWI - with the notable exception of Korea to fulfill their requirement as a proud NATO member. They were also making progress with the Kurds. But all that went flying out the window when the incumbent government failed to win a majority in the last elections, largely due to the inroads made by the Kurdish party - who gained the required 10% threshold for representation in government. There were plenty of signs before this, of course, but the past year has been stupefying.

Apart from highlighted bit agrees 100%. Korea wasn't a NATO action it was a UN action as shown bt the fact that counties such as
India, Thailand, Philipines, Colombia & S.Africa plus others were invloved

Thanks for the clarification.

belgarion wrote:

rowan wrote:Interesting indeed. We're seeing almost a century of civilization & democracy being unravelled here. I'm not saying it's all bad, but most of it is. When I arrived they had a 'Zero Problems with Neighbors' policy in place and had barely been involved in any wars at all since WWI - with the notable exception of Korea to fulfill their requirement as a proud NATO member. They were also making progress with the Kurds. But all that went flying out the window when the incumbent government failed to win a majority in the last elections, largely due to the inroads made by the Kurdish party - who gained the required 10% threshold for representation in government. There were plenty of signs before this, of course, but the past year has been stupefying.

Apart from highlighted bit agrees 100%. Korea wasn't a NATO action it was a UN action as shown bt the fact that counties such as
India, Thailand, Philipines, Colombia & S.Africa plus others were invloved

Not only that, but Turkey wasn't even a member of NATO when it sent the Turkish Brigade to Korea. The Turkish Government responded to UN Resolution 83 on June 29th 1950, and joined NATO on February 18th 1952.

So, Rowan, where was the Turkish 'Zero Problems with Neighbours' policy when Turkey invaded Cyprus?

Turkey invaded northern Cyprus to protect ethnic Turks being persecuted by the Greek military junta during the Metapolitefsi, yes. That action was supported by the US at the time. Why the island hasn't been reunited again is a different matter. I've been down there, btw, and the northern part is distinctly Turkish - albeit it of the more liberal 'Aegean' variety. The 'Zero Problems with Neighbors' policy is a much more recent phenomenon. It was in fact the political philosophy of the AKP under Erdogan - until very recently. And now suddenly they're at odds with practically all of their neighbors! That's got nothing to do with the military history of the Turkish Republic, but until the past few years the vast majority of their operations were against the Kurds, and for this purpose they have retained mandatory conscription & one of the world's biggest armies. About 40 K people are estimated to have been killed during the conflict with the PKK alone, and we can safely assume the vast majority of them will have been Kurds. What are they doing in Syria now? Attacking "ISIS?" Hmmm

rowan wrote:Turkey invaded northern Cyprus to protect ethnic Turks being persecuted by the Greek military junta during the Metapolitefsi, yes. That action was supported by the US at the time. Why the island hasn't been reunited again is a different matter. I've been down there, btw, and the northern part is distinctly Turkish - albeit it of the more liberal 'Aegean' variety. The 'Zero Problems with Neighbors' policy is a much more recent phenomenon. It was in fact the political philosophy of the AKP under Erdogan - until very recently. And now suddenly they're at odds with practically all of their neighbors! That's got nothing to do with the military history of the Turkish Republic, but until the past few years the vast majority of their operations were against the Kurds, and for this purpose they have retained mandatory conscription & one of the world's biggest armies. About 40 K people are estimated to have been killed during the conflict with the PKK alone, and we can safely assume the vast majority of them will have been Kurds. What are they doing in Syria now? Attacking "ISIS?" Hmmm

I don't think anyone believes they're only attacking ISIS. It has been fairly widely reported here who the real target is.