RugbyRebels

BBD wrote:
It's still vague though, in terms of what would constitute an acceptable way out

Jaysus,....if you've got a solution, then I want to hear it.

That's the point

There isn't one. Kapernicks vague requirements don't allow one

BBD wrote:That's the point

There isn't one. Kapernicks vague requirements don't allow one

Is it going to be incredibly offensive if I say this is too absolute ?.
I've already been a bit racist on the Fail website.

BBD wrote:he IS a sportsman
He's a sportsman choosing to use his profile within that sport to make a political point, he has the right to do so, no question.
My point is that the vagueness of his "demands" will make a resolution difficult. What can the NFL do? They are facing a situation where they can't guarantee the safety of spectators, so games and the vast amounts of money are at risk or further costs incurred. They have no influence over policing, societal racism or government policy. I can't see them joining his crusade re the anthem even if they wanted to

He is perfectly entitled to his view, and to protest, but as this plays out his lack of clarity means that it can only escalate if he chooses to retain his stance

F*ck off, Smartarse.

Yes to all of that....nevertheless I'm very impressed that he chose to make this stand. It was a big taboo.
This was a biggie and it had to be said.

Not trying to be a smart arse kk, Im just seeing it from a different angle to you and Im a little bewildered by the possible ways this could play out

I would prefer it to be resolved before the season starts. So in trying to see how it might be resolved I am struggling to see a way out.

We know that US citizens are very attached to their flag and its symbolism and they revere the anthem, they play it much more than GSTQ is played here these days. Its allied to their schools pledge of allegiance (daily I think) most sporting events and to those who serve either abroad or at home (Fire Service) He is really striking at the heart of what it means to be an American and I do concede he has shown some courage to stand up for what he believes in the face of vehement objections.
How much courage depends upon your perspective and is ultimately a dead end conversation - At $12million pa, that's a fairly comfortable position to make a stand from, however being prepared to put that at risk is for very high stakes particularly as he is limiting his future earnings from endorsements. Who would want him to endorse their product now? the label of being "un-American" is one that has a very nasty stench in the US and will hang around him for a long time in some peoples eyes

I think the telling thing is that the NFL or the 49ers cant really move from their public position of we cant force him to. Maybe some private conversations could exert some pressure upon him about what will happen when his contract is up for renewal. Again dangerous ground for a man who has just painted the biggest target on his chest to every linebacker in the league.

From the other side the police have worded their statement in such a way that gives them room for manoeuvre and maybe theres some wriggle room there. But if they decide to withdraw (if they can even do that, is it a volunteer shift?) then the 49ers only option will be to hire private security. that's on a huge scale and very costly. I cant see them enjoying dipping into their profits to do that for too long

You racist? really? you surprise me, I genuinely didn't think you were like that, perhaps you are judging it too harshly by your own usual high standards

If it's like the UK it's an overtime shift. The police will be paid for x amount of officers. I know we get the option to attend these but the police can be forced I think (here anyway).

None if that is really relevant but I'm at the airport at the Mrs is looking at shit in duty free.

North Americans get so precious about their flag and anthem. It's all a bit weird really. It's fine being patriotic but they seem to take it to the extreme.

What is even weirder is they used to do some thing called the "bellamy salute" look at this picture out of context





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellamy_salute

I spent a year working for a largely American security sector reform team in one of West Africa's more failed states. I was initially accommodated in a conspicuously smart apartment compound about 3 miles up the beach from the US Embassy. The evacuation plan, should it come to it, was for us to head to the beach and trot along it to the Embassy, where John Wayne would be ready to evacuate us.

I once, jokingly, suggested that there was no way I was running along the beach since that was where the quarter of a million people crammed into the city took their morning dump. My plan, I said, was to have an American flag permanently on my person and, when the need arose, I would join any crowd and burn it.

It seems that even joking about burning the flag can get them frothing at the gub. I was invited to leave the conspicuously smart compound and move to a decidedly derelict barrack closer in to the Embassy. I'm not sure if this was to lower the risk of my actually going through with the plan to burn the flag or whether the death threats that were shoved under my door were determined to be credible.

Shortly after moving to the barrack, I assisted an Australian colleague in running down the Stars and Stripes and replacing it with the Aussie flag, this in a state of some inebriation following an all-too-rare Bledisloe cup victory for the Wallabies.

I have to say that I was a little disappointed that none of this was reported in Wikileaks.

SerjeantWildgoose wrote:I spent a year working for a largely American security sector reform team in one of West Africa's more failed states. I was initially accommodated in a conspicuously smart apartment compound about 3 miles up the beach from the US Embassy. The evacuation plan, should it come to it, was for us to head to the beach and trot along it to the Embassy, where John Wayne would be ready to evacuate us.

I once, jokingly, suggested that there was no way I was running along the beach since that was where the quarter of a million people crammed into the city took their morning dump. My plan, I said, was to have an American flag permanently on my person and, when the need arose, I would join any crowd and burn it.

It seems that even joking about burning the flag can get them frothing at the gub. I was invited to leave the conspicuously smart compound and move to a decidedly derelict barrack closer in to the Embassy. I'm not sure if this was to lower the risk of my actually going through with the plan to burn the flag or whether the death threats that were shoved under my door were determined to be credible.

Shortly after moving to the barrack, I assisted an Australian colleague in running down the Stars and Stripes and replacing it with the Aussie flag, this in a state of some inebriation following an all-too-rare Bledisloe cup victory for the Wallabies.

I have to say that I was a little disappointed that none of this was reported in Wikileaks.

I do enjoy your pithy contributions you disfigured biscuit.

It's catching on . . .

The Seattle Seahawks are considering following Colin Kaepernick and making a protest of their own before their NFL opener against Miami on Sunday. A number of Seahawks players said they had been discussing their options, and suggested they might be prepared to take a team-wide stand before the weekend’s game.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/ ... day-opener

A whole team doing it is interesting. I don't really approve if it is mandatory or if pressure is being brought to ber in the locker room to do something or not.

My take on BBD's point is that it's over-analysis to expect a manifesto or list of demands to be met. It's an individual protest at the state of things - particularly race relations - in america. It need be no more coherent than that

A whole team doing it is interesting. I don't really approve if it is mandatory or if pressure is being brought to ber in the locker room to do something or not.

Good point. If it's a team-wide protest then individual choice seems to have fallen by the wayside, even though in this case it seems to be as much about support for Kaepernick's right to make his own choice as it does about the actual wording and implications of the anthem.

Personally I'd have to question the playing of any national anthem in non-international sports games. This just seems like a little too much indoctrination to me. Okay, at an international fixture it has intrinsic attachment to the theme being celebrated, but beyond that it seems like just one step away from kids having to recite the Pledge of Allegiance every day at school.

Personally I'm not a fan of nationalism at any level, and living in Turkey has only reinforced that view. Often its hard to make the distinction between this mindset and racism, and undoubtedly it is often used to justify racist actions and attitudes as well.

Anyway, probably this need to let this blow over then start giving the issue less press; just allow the players to make their choices and get on with the game....

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:A whole team doing it is interesting. I don't really approve if it is mandatory or if pressure is being brought to ber in the locker room to do something or not.

My take on BBD's point is that it's over-analysis to expect a manifesto or list of demands to be met. It's an individual protest at the state of things - particularly race relations - in america. It need be no more coherent than that

So how is it resolved?

BBD wrote:

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:A whole team doing it is interesting. I don't really approve if it is mandatory or if pressure is being brought to ber in the locker room to do something or not.

My take on BBD's point is that it's over-analysis to expect a manifesto or list of demands to be met. It's an individual protest at the state of things - particularly race relations - in america. It need be no more coherent than that

So how is it resolved?

I'm not expecting a manifesto. I'm saying that the absence of a specific goal means that a resolution is harder to achieve. Which means the process continues, and starts to gain momentum on one side and escalate tensions from the other. Given its a sport, has feck all to do with social issues and is powerless to affect them it's creating an issue in the wrong area

Just to add to a point I made the other day, it was interesting to see that Marshall, an ex college team mate of kapernick who plays for the Denver Broncos took a knee for the anthem at last nights game against the Carolina Panthers, later he went off the field to be assessed for a concussion. He returned and no more was made of it, and perhaps it was coincidence in a brutal game, or perhaps his actions earned him some extra attention

BBD wrote:

BBD wrote:

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:A whole team doing it is interesting. I don't really approve if it is mandatory or if pressure is being brought to ber in the locker room to do something or not.

My take on BBD's point is that it's over-analysis to expect a manifesto or list of demands to be met. It's an individual protest at the state of things - particularly race relations - in america. It need be no more coherent than that

So how is it resolved?

I'm not expecting a manifesto. I'm saying that the absence of a specific goal means that a resolution is harder to achieve. Which means the process continues, and starts to gain momentum on one side and escalate tensions from the other. Given its a sport, has feck all to do with social issues and is powerless to affect them it's creating an issue in the wrong area

i don't think he's looking for a resolution. He's protesting. When he no longer feels the need to protest then he'l stop. If the police do decide to abrogate their responsibilities then he should sue them for infringing his 1st amendment rights. Instead of directing their anger at him perhaps they might like to actually look at the ludicrous kill rate they have, particularly of black people.

It's your first two sentences where the problem lies in terms of getting back to the game rather than the pre game

One of the interesting factors is the position of the police, is it an obligation they must fulfill or is it a requirement they have fulfilled for sufficient time that it appears like an obligation

Just touching on an earlier point, pro sports would seem to absolutely be the right vehicle for this protest. After all, about the only descendants of slaves who are generally respected seem to be professional sportsmen. Who better to raise their nation's consciousness of race issues?

Agreed with Liz.

I don't agree lizard, professional sports is an elitist profession that places unrealistic demands and expectations upon talented and slightly less talented people. I think the relevance is a weak link. The profile is high, but that's not necessarily all good for the protest given the controversy

Which Tyler wrote:Agreed with Liz.

An iconic image, 1968? and yet here we are in 2016 addressing similar issues, park that for now, it's probably glib and unhelpful, apologies.

A protest should seek to achieve two aims

1) raise awareness, as wide as possible, as many people should get to hear/ see your objection as possible - kapernick et al are doing really well in achieving this, it's all over the media and attracting coverage ( not all supportive, but largely respectful)

2) achieve specific and influential change over policy or behaviour, if you don't then ultimately your gesture, however iconic, is a waste of what you achieved in number 1. I think that this can be achieved if the notoriety/support you achieve is sufficiently big and popular. Change is unlikely if your method of protest goes against the grain and gets people motivated to object to your protest rather than the thing you are trying to achieve. The protest is in danger of becoming bigger than the cause

In a country where the anthem is treated with such deference and respect, achieving wholesale approval is unlikely, indeed it seems to be polarising rather than unifying.

BBD wrote:I don't agree lizard, professional sports is an elitist profession that places unrealistic demands and expectations upon talented and slightly less talented people. I think the relevance is a weak link. The profile is high, but that's not necessarily all good for the protest given the controversy

So who should be protesting then? When ordinary black Americans take to the streets people generally end up hurt and the National Guard gets called out.

I think this protest is well placed. It's not like he can refuse the draft like Cassius Clay/Muhammed Ali in order to draw attention to a serious issue.

It's precisely because of the mindless nationalism into which American children are indoctrinated that this is an effective protest. Perhaps more Americans should think critically about why it is portrayed as being compulsory to put your hand on your heart, stand up for the anthem, pledge allegiance etc.

If it doesn't upset at least some people, it's probably not an effective protest.

Again, who is protesting is less of an issue in this case than how they are protesting

I respectfully disagree, I think it's well placed to achieve publicity but poorly thought out to achieve change

Perhaps they should. In the past, in your own experience, of how you and others tend to react, have you found that someone taking an oppositional stance to something you have learned since a small child and you'd consider a core value of your identity has made you accept or reject their point of view more readily? When you have been convinced to change your view of something what's convinced you?

I accept and agree a protest should provoke, it should draw attention and will inevitably upset some, but it should also challenge and offer alternatives or it suffers as a consequence

BBD wrote:

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:A whole team doing it is interesting. I don't really approve if it is mandatory or if pressure is being brought to ber in the locker room to do something or not.

My take on BBD's point is that it's over-analysis to expect a manifesto or list of demands to be met. It's an individual protest at the state of things - particularly race relations - in america. It need be no more coherent than that

So how is it resolved?

They could start by not having the police not treat every interaction with a black person as target practice. It's a radical idea, but it's crazy enough to work.

BBD wrote:I don't agree lizard, professional sports is an elitist profession that places unrealistic demands and expectations upon talented and slightly less talented people. I think the relevance is a weak link. The profile is high, but that's not necessarily all good for the protest given the controversy

The fact that "stop shooting so many black people for no reason" is controversial says more about the people who think it's a controversial opinion, and none of it is good. Aside from that, I don't see why doing a sports precludes one from having an opinion or the right to express it.