Jones gone (Now 100% confirmed)

[Oakboy]

Why is anyone surprised by the RFU's incompetence when they publicly backed Jones for the last three years no matter how bad results and performances became? At least Jones is not involved in appointing his successor (not even the RFU could be that stupid . . . could they?).

[p/d]

At least Jones is not involved in appointing his successor (not even the RFU could be that stupid . . . could they?).

probably Geechs, Webb and DeGlanville going through their address books................... and landing on the letter 'R' for Robinson

[Which Tyler]

No. I thought it was a done deal after WC. I was wrong ….. just pissed off with the whole thing. Get what I want - Jones out - and yet the powers that be show a level of incompetence that makes ya hang your head in shame

Never In Doubt.

If we've got to pay out £2M just to get Borthwick out of his contract, I'd rather we spent it on Wayne Smith, or Scott Robertson. Pretty sure we could get the pair of them for 12 months for £2M (including release fees); then we can keep SR on afterwards, and we'll have somehow wrangled a victory out of this sorry saga.

[p/d]

No. I thought it was a done deal after WC. I was wrong ….. just pissed off with the whole thing. Get what I want - Jones out - and yet the powers that be show a level of incompetence that makes ya hang your head in shame

Never In Doubt.

If we've got to pay out £2M just to get Borthwick out of his contract, I'd rather we spent it on Wayne Smith, or Scott Robertson. Pretty sure we could get the pair of them for 12 months for £2M (including release fees); then we can keep SR on afterwards, and we'll have somehow wrangled a victory out of this sorry saga.

Absolutely.

I am all for Leicester getting their pound of flesh, but I would hope the RFU walk away from negotiations (if there are any)

[Banquo]

No. I thought it was a done deal after WC. I was wrong ….. just pissed off with the whole thing. Get what I want - Jones out - and yet the powers that be show a level of incompetence that makes ya hang your head in shame

Never In Doubt.

If we've got to pay out £2M just to get Borthwick out of his contract, I'd rather we spent it on Wayne Smith, or Scott Robertson. Pretty sure we could get the pair of them for 12 months for £2M (including release fees); then we can keep SR on afterwards, and we'll have somehow wrangled a victory out of this sorry saga.

definitely.

[FKAS]

Its a mess that surely would have been averted with some groundwork being laid months ago. The RFU knew Jones would go after the WC. They made of point of saying they wanted his successor to be on board for the WC. They presumably had their eye on Borthwick last season, so its hard to believe that no one was in contact to check on his availability, or his contractual situation.
Looks like this is going cost the RFU £2M + I doubt they've factored that in to their calculations.

I suspect his contractual situation and associated pay off varies wildly between leaving mid season and leaving next summer. The £2m was also quoted in relation to the RFU taking Borthwick and three of his assistants leaving Tigers with nothing but a scrum coach, assistant forwards coach and assistant backs coach. If you are recruiting an entire Prem winning coaching staff (pretty much) mid season then £2m isn't out of the question to be honest. Especially when you've already shown you'll throw the money around with £800k to get rid of Eddie.

Borthwick signing an extension with no fanfare is about as Borthwick as it gets.

[Puja]

No. I thought it was a done deal after WC. I was wrong ….. just pissed off with the whole thing. Get what I want - Jones out - and yet the powers that be show a level of incompetence that makes ya hang your head in shame

Never In Doubt.

If we've got to pay out £2M just to get Borthwick out of his contract, I'd rather we spent it on Wayne Smith, or Scott Robertson. Pretty sure we could get the pair of them for 12 months for £2M (including release fees); then we can keep SR on afterwards, and we'll have somehow wrangled a victory out of this sorry saga.

It's quoted as £1m for Borthwick on his own and that is a) what's reported in the paper and b) even if it is true, it's Leicester's opening gambit in response to the RFU offering £300k. I'd imagine it'll probably end up as under £500k, given that everyone involved knows that Borthwick does want to go. Pinchin wants her pound of flesh, not to actively prevent the move.

Puja

[Timbo]

What do the people at the top of the RFU do all day? Lunches and equality surveys.

Can’t be that hard just to do a bit of scenario planning. What happens if we have a terrible autumn? Are we backing Jones no matter what? If not, who is available and how much will they cost? Does anyone have Scott Robertsons mobile number?

[FKAS]

No. I thought it was a done deal after WC. I was wrong ….. just pissed off with the whole thing. Get what I want - Jones out - and yet the powers that be show a level of incompetence that makes ya hang your head in shame

Never In Doubt.

If we've got to pay out £2M just to get Borthwick out of his contract, I'd rather we spent it on Wayne Smith, or Scott Robertson. Pretty sure we could get the pair of them for 12 months for £2M (including release fees); then we can keep SR on afterwards, and we'll have somehow wrangled a victory out of this sorry saga.

It's quoted as £1m for Borthwick on his own and that is a) what's reported in the paper and b) even if it is true, it's Leicester's opening gambit in response to the RFU offering £300k. I'd imagine it'll probably end up as under £500k, given that everyone involved knows that Borthwick does want to go. Pinchin wants her pound of flesh, not to actively prevent the move.

Puja

The originally quoted numbers were Tigers wanting £500k and the RFU offering £200k so it's hard to know how sensationalised the numbers have been over the last week.

You're right about Pinchen, she's not trying to stop the deal she wants to help balance the books a bit and get the war chest ready should we need to go recruiting.

[Banquo]

What do the people at the top of the RFU do all day? Lunches and equality surveys.

Can’t be that hard just to do a bit of scenario planning. What happens if we have a terrible autumn? Are we backing Jones no matter what? If not, who is available and how much will they cost? Does anyone have Scott Robertsons mobile number?

sit in front of DCMS select committee being berated by the charmer that is Julian Knight?

But yes, its pi55 poor.

[Banquo]

Never In Doubt.

If we've got to pay out £2M just to get Borthwick out of his contract, I'd rather we spent it on Wayne Smith, or Scott Robertson. Pretty sure we could get the pair of them for 12 months for £2M (including release fees); then we can keep SR on afterwards, and we'll have somehow wrangled a victory out of this sorry saga.

It's quoted as £1m for Borthwick on his own and that is a) what's reported in the paper and b) even if it is true, it's Leicester's opening gambit in response to the RFU offering £300k. I'd imagine it'll probably end up as under £500k, given that everyone involved knows that Borthwick does want to go. Pinchin wants her pound of flesh, not to actively prevent the move.

Puja

The originally quoted numbers were Tigers wanting £500k and the RFU offering £200k so it's hard to know how sensationalised the numbers have been over the last week.

You're right about Pinchen, she's not trying to stop the deal she wants to help balance the books a bit and get the war chest ready should we need to go recruiting.

Is her name Penny?

[Mikey Brown]

Booooo

[p/d]

Haven't been this frustrated since purchasing Hellmann's mayonaisse in a squeezy bottle!!

[Tom Moore]

If I'm Borthwick and I can't pick my own coaches, I don't think I'd want the job. It's a hiding to nothing.

[Banquo]

If I'm Borthwick and I can't pick my own coaches, I don't think I'd want the job. It's a hiding to nothing.

Absolutely.

[FKAS]

If I'm Borthwick and I can't pick my own coaches, I don't think I'd want the job. It's a hiding to nothing.

Absolutely.

Depends whether he wants the Tigers ones or others. He'd not worked with either Sinfield nor Walters before joining Tigers. In the summer Tigers might be more amenable to releasing assistants though by that point Sinfield will probably be head coach.

Borthwick hasn't commented, he might have other assistant coaches in mind. I don't think he actually chose Aled Walters, the club appointed him and then Borthwick ended up using him in coaching discussions far more than a normal S&C coach because they got on.

It would not surprise me if Borthwick used the 6N to evaluate the current England set up and then jettison those he didn't want before the summer and build from there for the world cup. Recruiting in the summer will be easier and by then he'll know what he wants and needs.

[Puja]

If I'm Borthwick and I can't pick my own coaches, I don't think I'd want the job. It's a hiding to nothing.

I don't know how vital those particular assistants are to Borthwick though. It's not like he's worked with them for a decade or like they're a vital part of his process. Sinfield and Walters are good (and Wigglesworth is certainly someone filling a coaching position), but I don't know they are the only people of their quality available.

I agree that he has to be able to pick his own coaches, but they don't have to be those ones.

Puja

[Banquo]

If I'm Borthwick and I can't pick my own coaches, I don't think I'd want the job. It's a hiding to nothing.

Absolutely.

Depends whether he wants the Tigers ones or others. He'd not worked with either Sinfield nor Walters before joining Tigers. In the summer Tigers might be more amenable to releasing assistants though by that point Sinfield will probably be head coach.

Borthwick hasn't commented, he might have other assistant coaches in mind. I don't think he actually chose Aled Walters, the club appointed him and then Borthwick ended up using him in coaching discussions far more than a normal S&C coach because they got on.

It would not surprise me if Borthwick used the 6N to evaluate the current England set up and then jettison those he didn't want before the summer and build from there for the world cup. Recruiting in the summer will be easier and by then he'll know what he wants and needs.

Point remains the same- without coaches he actually wants, its a bit of a mare.

[Oakboy]

Borthwick is not negotiating blind. If he's as bright as is claimed, he will know every word of his current contract and those of the other Leicester coaches. He will also have known the likelihood of following Jones and been making plans for months.

Another point is that he knows how much leeway Jones was given about appointing coaching assistants. I doubt the RFU will get away with a full about-turn on that if they want Borthwick as much as it appears.

Let's face it, if he meekly signs a contract to fully accept the existing coaching crew and starts off downtrodden, he's not the man for the job.

[FKAS]

You are presuming that he doesn't want or rate the existing coaches because you do not. He might be open to working with them, he worked with a number of coaches he was given at Tigers rather than appoint his own. He only appointed Sinfield as defence coach and Wigglesworth as backs/attack player/coach. Nothing to do with him being meek, he's a measured character and might not think walking in and firing everybody a) sets the right tone and b) is the best use of the budget that the RFU will probably agree with him.

[Banquo]

You are presuming that he doesn't want or rate the existing coaches because you do not. He might be open to working with them, he worked with a number of coaches he was given at Tigers rather than appoint his own. He only appointed Sinfield as defence coach and Wigglesworth as backs/attack player/coach. Nothing to do with him being meek, he's a measured character and might not think walking in and firing everybody a) sets the right tone and b) is the best use of the budget that the RFU will probably agree with him.

..I think the key point is whether its really his choice to accept or not. If not, its absolutely going to hamper him.

[Oakboy]

You are presuming that he doesn't want or rate the existing coaches because you do not. He might be open to working with them, he worked with a number of coaches he was given at Tigers rather than appoint his own. He only appointed Sinfield as defence coach and Wigglesworth as backs/attack player/coach. Nothing to do with him being meek, he's a measured character and might not think walking in and firing everybody a) sets the right tone and b) is the best use of the budget that the RFU will probably agree with him.

That's what I meant by 'fully accept' - not necessarily keeping or sacking every individual but laying down his own rules. Of course, that would very likely result in departures.

[fivepointer]

The situation isnt ideal but the timing of Jones dismissal means that its very unlikely that Borthwick will be able to start the job with the coaches he wants. He will know this. Its factored in given the earlier than expected elevation to the job.
I imagine the RFU have promised to bring in the people he wants - should he wish to do so - after the season ends and WC preparations begin.
The whole thing is a bit of a mess but professional people can work through things and can manage less than ideal situations.

[Dan. Dan. Dan.]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/ ... oach-jones

So. They didn’t talk to the players?

What a mess.

As an aside; Courtney Lewes on dementia, he’s got past with putting his foot in it politically. Now he’s spouting nonsense about this…

[Puja]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/ ... oach-jones

So. They didn’t talk to the players?

What a mess.

As an aside; Courtney Lewes on dementia, he’s got past with putting his foot in it politically. Now he’s spouting nonsense about this…

Just looking more and more like it was a snap decision by Sweeney to chuck Jones under tbe bus to take the pressure off his own job.

Puja