Squad for Wales

[Banquo]

'...all living in bubbles so all the players probably 'f8cking hate each other'! '

'Endless fckin phases was also as dull as ditchwater'

Most pertinently, listen to the points about prep and conditions. And I agree that it will all settle down and RU isn't doomed

(Nick Tompkins gets absolutely reemed later on as well!)

[p/d]

potty mouth's, the pair of 'em

[16th man]

Quite funny they slag off knee-jerkism then declare that Pivac has to rip up his plan and go back to the drawing board.

[Digby]

B and M really sum up my feelings on the "current state of rugby".

Starts at 1 hr and 3 mins in. They make some very good points.

Panic not, I've been reading the World Rugby strategic plan for 2021-2025 this afternoon and clearly the game is destined for a bright and glorious future

I don't like everything they've written, for instance I don't like starting off with the heading "COVID-19 – RIDING THE CORONACOASTER" but whatever, it's at least better than some of the gems I don't even understand like "Independent annual research to show enhanced perceptions as well as a 10% increase in global Followers and Fans by 2025" though I suppose they are at least advising in advance what the independent research will conclude depending on how one infers that, even if I don't know what perceptions will be measured, how they'll be measured, or why people are paid to write this stuff or why others get paid to listen to it.

[twitchy]

Quite funny they slag off knee-jerkism then declare that Pivac has to rip up his plan and go back to the drawing board.

Josh has held that opinion for ages.

[Puja]

B and M really sum up my feelings on the "current state of rugby".

Starts at 1 hr and 3 mins in. They make some very good points.

I have to say, I think they've gone to the other extreme by claiming there's no problem, no-one's going to be turned off from watching rugby, everything's absolutely fine, and misrepresenting people complaining as wanting Barbarians-fling-it-about rugby. There is a problem, a succession of dire test matches is going to turn casual fans off (and reduce the chances of the game getting that sweet sweet Bezos money again, which we are not rich enough as a sport to sneer at), and I don't want Barbarians; I just want a game where 80% of possession isn't either kicking it away or running the forwards up to get into a better position to kick it away.

Comments about "Oh, this happened in 2007 and we survived" miss two important factors - 1) there was a law change immediately after 2007 in reaction to the problem and it made things much better and 2) 2007 didn't come after a global pandemic in which every single union, club and province suffered massive financial losses that cause a very real threat to their ongoing survival. Now is not a good time for the sport to go through a phase of being utterly dire to watch and be brazen about, "If you don't like it, go watch rugby league."

Puja

[Cameo]

B and M really sum up my feelings on the "current state of rugby".

Starts at 1 hr and 3 mins in. They make some very good points.

I have to say, I think they've gone to the other extreme by claiming there's no problem, no-one's going to be turned off from watching rugby, everything's absolutely fine, and misrepresenting people complaining as wanting Barbarians-fling-it-about rugby. There is a problem, a succession of dire test matches is going to turn casual fans off (and reduce the chances of the game getting that sweet sweet Bezos money again, which we are not rich enough as a sport to sneer at), and I don't want Barbarians; I just want a game where 80% of possession isn't either kicking it away or running the forwards up to get into a better position to kick it away.

Comments about "Oh, this happened in 2007 and we survived" miss two important factors - 1) there was a law change immediately after 2007 in reaction to the problem and it made things much better and 2) 2007 didn't come after a global pandemic in which every single union, club and province suffered massive financial losses that cause a very real threat to their ongoing survival. Now is not a good time for the sport to go through a phase of being utterly dire to watch and be brazen about, "If you don't like it, go watch rugby league."

Puja

Agreed.

I do think we should give it til after the 6N to do anything to drastic (other than enforcing the existing rules better) though. People say attack takes longer to coach so hopefully the current phase will pass. I still go back to Super Rugby Aoteroa where these interpretations were used (though slightly differently with offside actually being policed) and there was loads of good rugby.

[Puja]

B and M really sum up my feelings on the "current state of rugby".

Starts at 1 hr and 3 mins in. They make some very good points.

I have to say, I think they've gone to the other extreme by claiming there's no problem, no-one's going to be turned off from watching rugby, everything's absolutely fine, and misrepresenting people complaining as wanting Barbarians-fling-it-about rugby. There is a problem, a succession of dire test matches is going to turn casual fans off (and reduce the chances of the game getting that sweet sweet Bezos money again, which we are not rich enough as a sport to sneer at), and I don't want Barbarians; I just want a game where 80% of possession isn't either kicking it away or running the forwards up to get into a better position to kick it away.

Comments about "Oh, this happened in 2007 and we survived" miss two important factors - 1) there was a law change immediately after 2007 in reaction to the problem and it made things much better and 2) 2007 didn't come after a global pandemic in which every single union, club and province suffered massive financial losses that cause a very real threat to their ongoing survival. Now is not a good time for the sport to go through a phase of being utterly dire to watch and be brazen about, "If you don't like it, go watch rugby league."

Puja

Agreed.

I do think we should give it til after the 6N to do anything to drastic (other than enforcing the existing rules better) though. People say attack takes longer to coach so hopefully the current phase will pass. I still go back to Super Rugby Aoteroa where these interpretations were used (though slightly differently with offside actually being policed) and there was loads of good rugby.

With Super Rugby though, they policed the first half really strongly and enforced the new directives strongly and the press was full of nothing but whining about the number of penalties killing the games. The refs lost their nerve and then it ended up in a mess, like every attempt to enforce the laws enthusiastically.

Puja

[Cameo]

I have to say, I think they've gone to the other extreme by claiming there's no problem, no-one's going to be turned off from watching rugby, everything's absolutely fine, and misrepresenting people complaining as wanting Barbarians-fling-it-about rugby. There is a problem, a succession of dire test matches is going to turn casual fans off (and reduce the chances of the game getting that sweet sweet Bezos money again, which we are not rich enough as a sport to sneer at), and I don't want Barbarians; I just want a game where 80% of possession isn't either kicking it away or running the forwards up to get into a better position to kick it away.

Comments about "Oh, this happened in 2007 and we survived" miss two important factors - 1) there was a law change immediately after 2007 in reaction to the problem and it made things much better and 2) 2007 didn't come after a global pandemic in which every single union, club and province suffered massive financial losses that cause a very real threat to their ongoing survival. Now is not a good time for the sport to go through a phase of being utterly dire to watch and be brazen about, "If you don't like it, go watch rugby league."

Puja

Agreed.

I do think we should give it til after the 6N to do anything to drastic (other than enforcing the existing rules better) though. People say attack takes longer to coach so hopefully the current phase will pass. I still go back to Super Rugby Aoteroa where these interpretations were used (though slightly differently with offside actually being policed) and there was loads of good rugby.

With Super Rugby though, they policed the first half really strongly and enforced the new directives strongly and the press was full of nothing but whining about the number of penalties killing the games. The refs lost their nerve and then it ended up in a mess, like every attempt to enforce the laws enthusiastically.

Puja

I semi agree with you in that the refs did back off too much, but not to the extent that you couldn't attack.

I honestly think that if you aggressively enforce the offside line, to the extent of pre warning players that if it is borderline and you are not sure you will penalise them, then there is plenty of scope to attack.

The ultimate fix is to find a way that teams can turnover the ball without it being a penalty but, until that time, only minor tweaks are needed to make a slightly safer version of the fun game we had two years ago.

[Mikey Brown]

As much as I’m not enjoying the game right now, I think every time you tinker with things you wipe out a good portion of the season adjusting.

It’s just so annoying that they had the perfect opportunity returning from Covid to “go hard”, as Eddie put it, and actually get everyone on the same page, enforcing all the laws that are currently in place. Tacklers rolling away and releasing the ball on the floor have been focussed on, but it’s largely been all over the place.

And yeah the super rugby restart seemed really promising from what I saw. I was hoping test rugby might have started to look like (a slightly less skilful version of) that, but with tackling.

[Banquo]

I thought they gave a tad more context than don’t worry it will be fine. They did point out that it’s been a weird old time for rugby and for coaches and players, and expecting them all to come out of the blocks with some flash version of the game in front of no crowds in largely average conditions was probably unrealistic, and that the ott reaction of many like Dawson was a bit mad. They did say the rugby was sh’t as well by and large. But rushing to fix things by changing the laws yet again on the basis of an anomalous period of intl rugby does seem unwise. Their point about Eddie is well made- like it or lump it, he’s doing what he said he would.

[Puja]

I thought they gave a tad more context than don’t worry it will be fine. They did point out that it’s been a weird old time for rugby and for coaches and players, and expecting them all to come out of the blocks with some flash version of the game in front of no crowds in largely average conditions was probably unrealistic, and that the ott reaction of many like Dawson was a bit mad. They did say the rugby was sh’t as well by and large. But rushing to fix things by changing the laws yet again on the basis of an anomalous period of intl rugby does seem unwise. Their point about Eddie is well made- like it or lump it, he’s doing what he said he would.

The bolded bit is where I am taking umbrage with the podcast - they're chucking out a strawman to say that people are complaining that they're not playing "some flash version of the game." People aren't worried about the lack of Barbarians-style attack from their own tryline, they're worried about every single bit of possession within 70m of their own line being booted in the air.

I agree that it's unrealistic for them to be playing flash. I don't think it's unrealistic to expect them to actually play, especially in the opposition half.

Puja

[twitchy]

Lots of people have been doom mongering it up in the press and on social media saying we need to change the rules etc. People on here have been saying that eddie needs to be sacked. I thought it was a perfect response. Eddie has said he will focus on the attack after the lions tour.

[Mikey Brown]

Somebody mentioned the other day about the contest for the ball being the core of rugby. Sure there’s a contest (for penalties) at the breakdown and set piece, but they only ever seem to stop the game rather than get it moving. Nobody seems to actually want the ball anymore.

There’s a line between pragmatism and a complete unwillingness to attack unless absolutely forced.

[Banquo]

I thought they gave a tad more context than don’t worry it will be fine. They did point out that it’s been a weird old time for rugby and for coaches and players, and expecting them all to come out of the blocks with some flash version of the game in front of no crowds in largely average conditions was probably unrealistic, and that the ott reaction of many like Dawson was a bit mad. They did say the rugby was sh’t as well by and large. But rushing to fix things by changing the laws yet again on the basis of an anomalous period of intl rugby does seem unwise. Their point about Eddie is well made- like it or lump it, he’s doing what he said he would.

The bolded bit is where I am taking umbrage with the podcast - they're chucking out a strawman to say that people are complaining that they're not playing "some flash version of the game." People aren't worried about the lack of Barbarians-style attack from their own tryline, they're worried about every single bit of possession within 70m of their own line being booted in the air.

I agree that it's unrealistic for them to be playing flash. I don't think it's unrealistic to expect them to actually play, especially in the opposition half.

Puja

I think they are questioning why people are overreacting especially those who should know better. I think they are making some good points, strawmannery (who would use that I wonder) aside.

[Puja]

Come to think of it, I think the answer lies in the directives that World Rugby gave before Aoteorea that were adhered to for maybe a month - jackallers should only get penalties where there is a bona fide attempt to remove the ball and it's being held onto by the tackled player. None of this "clamping onto the body" nonsense - attempt to lift or GTFO.

I'm always infuriated when I see a team protesting that a jackaller's over the ball and the ref has to say, "He's won the turnover." A ruck penalty should be a punishment for preventing a turnover, not the inevitable reward for getting your hands to the ball first.

Puja