Transfer gossip - sometimes even accurate (accidentally) - Season 2022/23

[FKAS]

Hartley is (was... sob) a full squad member, not in the academy. So I wonder if there is more wiggle room to add academy contracts to a squad in terms of cap?

I think if you're under 24 and below a certain wage you can be in the development cap and either largely or entirely out of the salary cap. That's an I think as an opposed to I know though.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Need to pick up a young 12 prospect really.

You've signed Seb Atkinson from Worcester already. He's a young (20) 12 with plenty of promise. Alex Hearle the 13/wing joined at the same time though he's a bit older at 24. Should both give you some options and bring the average age down.

Oddly Ollie Hartley hasn't found a new club after leaving Wasps. I'd have thought someone would have snapped him up pretty quickly.

True, I think young Seb’s promise might be a few years away yet but we’ll see. Hearle more of a wing / full back.

He was very good for Wuss. Proper good player in the making.

[Scrumhead]

Agreed. The first time I watched him he was up against Andre Esterhuizen and (as a Quins fan) I thought he was going to get a cruel introduction into Premiership rugby. As it happened, Esterhuizen was barely in the game and Atkinson ended up scoring a try. He’s one to watch I’d say - I’d certainly have been happy for us to sign him.

[Timbo]

Alfie Barbeary heading to Bath. Starts there next week.

[FKAS]

Alfie Barbeary heading to Bath. Starts there next week.

Didn't expect that but then again Bath have done well out of Wuss's demise, try the same tactic with Wasps perhaps.

[Which Tyler]

It's the "starts next week" that comes as a surprise

[Puja]

Bath the absolute winners out of the financial mess - Hill, Barbeary, and Lawrence are an infusion of quality that could absolutely transform their season. Incredible coup to acquire those three

Puja

[FKAS]

What's the betting that Elliott Stooke goes from playing for the Baabaas at the Rec to playing at the Rec for the rest of the season.

Some fantastic work by their recruitment team.

[Mikey Brown]

I still don’t get how Bath managed to snap up so much of the talent. Nice to see them looking to get back on track, but they could have shared it around a little more.

[Puja]

I still don’t get how Bath managed to snap up so much of the talent. Nice to see them looking to get back on track, but they could have shared it around a little more.

When they had all those early season long-term injuries, everyone was criticising them, saying there was clearly somethjng wrong with their conditioning to have so many injuries. We didn't see it was all part of the long game...

What's the betting that Elliott Stooke goes from playing for the Baabaas at the Rec to playing at the Rec for the rest of the season.

Some fantastic work by their recruitment team.

That's a fair shout - they could use him back again.

Puja

[twitchy]

I still don’t get how Bath managed to snap up so much of the talent. Nice to see them looking to get back on track, but they could have shared it around a little more.

I don't either. Falling upwards.

[Stom]

I still don’t get how Bath managed to snap up so much of the talent. Nice to see them looking to get back on track, but they could have shared it around a little more.

I don't either. Falling upwards.

I was quietly optimistic when Dalrymple said Quins were looking at some options on recruitment, but it seems like we're not likely to bring anyone else in... I don't think Quins use the cap very well.

[Scrumhead]

I think that’s harsh. I’d agree in the respect that it seems we’re paying over the odds for some players. On the other hand, it also feels as though we’re fiscally responsible which is all important right now.

Apparently Launchbury is joining us for next season after returning from a stint in Japan. A return for Lewies is definitely looking sketchy and Launch would bring a huge amount in terms of leadership and nous.

[Mellsblue]

Launchbury homecoming after overseeing the Roses’s kickoff receipts! Think he’ll go very well in that Quins team.

[Mikey Brown]

I think that’s harsh. I’d agree in the respect that it seems we’re paying over the odds for some players. On the other hand, it also feels as though we’re fiscally responsible which is all important right now.

Apparently Launchbury is joining us for next season after returning from a stint in Japan. A return for Lewies is definitely looking sketchy and Launch would bring a huge amount in terms of leadership and nous.

Not sure if I’m repeating myself here. A classic Quins signing in the sense he’d be great if there’s any chance he’s actually fit for more than 4 games a season. Lewies is impressive in somehow making Launch look like he has a decent enough record of being fit, I guess.

[Peej]

Bath the absolute winners out of the financial mess - Hill, Barbeary, and Lawrence are an infusion of quality that could absolutely transform their season. Incredible coup to acquire those three

Puja

How does all that come under the cap though?

[Peej]

Umaga to Treviso

[Which Tyler]

How does all that come under the cap though?

We fans don't know, and can only theorise.

But...

We do know that Hooper like his mid-season signings (not just injury dispensation) and that he knows that the injury dispensation isn't enough to cover all the injuries a club suffers through a season (especially when Bath were seeing more than half the squad out at any one time).
I'm sure he'd have advised JvG to keep some cap back for more of them; and I suspect we'd have kept more than usual back, given the new HoR would be wanting to start building his own squad.

Equally, the 2 or 3 players we've signed longer term are all under 24 yoa, so theoretically could be signed to the academy, with a different (very low) cap, which may allow a little more wriggle room.

As for how much they're being paid right now - probably a pittance, and nowhere near their worth; but those 2 or 3 players have also got longer term contracts in their pocket to start in the off season - how much might they be willing to reduce their current pay for (say) a 5 year contract later - for a club with a dedicated, wealthy owner, having just been made jobless at a moment's notice?

On top of that, all transfers this mid-season will be under a very intense microscope, and pretty much any signing that hasn't been run past the cap commissioner would be a dereliction of duty, and gross negligence - so I can't believe that we haven't (though I acknowledge that such things do happen).



However, if Bath are being naughty here, then I will absolutely be castigating them, and demanding heads to roll.

[Peej]

How does all that come under the cap though?

We fans don't know, and can only theorise.

But...

We do know that Hooper like his mid-season signings (not just injury dispensation) and that he knows that the injury dispensation isn't enough to cover all the injuries a club suffers through a season (especially when Bath were seeing more than half the squad out at any one time).
I'm sure he'd have advised JvG to keep some cap back for more of them; and I suspect we'd have kept more than usual back, given the new HoR would be wanting to start building his own squad.

Equally, the 2 or 3 players we've signed longer term are all under 24 yoa, so theoretically could be signed to the academy, with a different (very low) cap, which may allow a little more wriggle room.

As for how much they're being paid right now - probably a pittance, and nowhere near their worth; but those 2 or 3 players have also got longer term contracts in their pocket to start in the off season - how much might they be willing to reduce their current pay for (say) a 5 year contract later - for a club with a dedicated, wealthy owner, having just been made jobless at a moment's notice?

On top of that, all transfers this mid-season will be under a very intense microscope, and pretty much any signing that hasn't been run past the cap commissioner would be a dereliction of duty, and gross negligence - so I can't believe that we haven't (though I acknowledge that such things do happen).



However, if Bath are being naughty here, then I will absolutely be castigating them, and demanding heads to roll.

I think this is probably the key bit. And beggars can't be choosers anyway, after all.

Can you go from a full contract to an academy contract somewhere? I don't see why you would, but neither can I see why you couldn't if you had to?

[Which Tyler]

I think this is probably the key bit. And beggars can't be choosers anyway, after all.

Can you go from a full contract to an academy contract somewhere? I don't see why you would, but neither can I see why you couldn't if you had to?

Agreed.
They'll have signed 2 contracts, one for the rest of this year, and a second for the next however many (and both club and player would probably be looking for longer than the usual 2+1 years).

I don't think there's any reason why a player couldn't go from senior to academy as far as contracts are concerned - but obviously, they really wouldn't want to, and it would be an outright insult in normal times. These are not normal times.
I also don't think it would provide much wriggle room - but if we're offering a pittance *(a pittance, which is still likely to be somewhere around the 80th percentile of earnings for the UK), then it may well be enough. It only occurred to me because there was that article about Launchbury only being offered academy-level contracts (obviously, he couldn't sign an actual academy contract).

[Mellsblue]

From what I’ve read, the players are taking approx. a third of what they were previously earning so it’s hardly a stretch to think this is all within the cap. Regardless, imo, the salary cap should be immaterial when giving ex-Wasps or Wuss players a job. Surely, nobody wants to see players lose money and months of game time for something wholly out of their control*? In extreme situations the status quo isn’t usually the correct answer. I’m a strong proponent of promotion and relegation yet agreed that it should be paused whilst covid affected finances - I also didn’t here much noise on here against it but could be wrong. The downside is that, due to their own failings, Bath are the beneficiary’s of both the pause on relegation and Wasps and Wuss going belly-up. Failing up, as it were.

*just to be provocative… remember when posters were saying that Sarries players were partially responsible for their employer breaching the salary cap as they must’ve known the club’s finances. By the same logic, do we think the Wasps and Wuss players are partially responsible for sending their clubs under?

[Scrumhead]

To answer your asterisked point, I think the key piece is that AFAIK, Worcester and Wasps were only ever offering a regular salary. Saracens were offering all kinds of additional financial sweeteners such as Wray bankrolling businesses or buying houses etc. The Saracens players and their agents must have known that it was hinky. Either that or they were naive to the point of stupidity. I don’t begrudge them taking what was on offer, but it does stretch credibility to suggest they had no idea it was dodgy.

[Mellsblue]

The argument made at the time was that the Sarries plays must’ve known that the club was over the cap so why did they do nothing about it. Could/should the same be said for the Wuss and Wasps players? Surely, accepting a wage that you know (assuming we accept the argument about the Saracens players knowledge of the clubs finances) your employer can’t afford and putting a club in financial jeopardy is worse than breaking some arbitrary salary cap? Could the same be said for all players at clubs that have lost money for years and years? Could the same be said of the Leicester players about their dodgy image rights?
To be clear, I think all the above are bs positions to take but I’m just curious as to where people drawn the line when it comes to player responsibility for a club’s finances.

[Puja]

Plus it's worth remembering the sheer depth of Bath's injury woes. Obano and Stuart would've been on fairly solid wedges as high-quality props, Ewels wouldn't be cheap, and they've also lost Underhill, WSpencer, Reid, McNally, Francis, and Muir for a reasonable chunk of time. They've got a minimum of three test players/first team regulars worth of salary cap in injury dispensation if we're assuming they're paying full price, which they're absolutely not going to be in this current climate.

Puja

[FKAS]

THE LEVEL OF THE SALARY CAP

The level of the Salary Cap is proportionate and aligned to the growth of the business and is linked directly to the central distributions to the clubs from Premiership Rugby.

For the 2020-21 Salary Cap Year, the level of the Salary Cap is £6,400,000 with the following credits and exclusions:

Home Grown Player Credits totalling £600,000 (up to £50,000 per player) – designed to incentivise clubs to retain home grown talent;
EPS/International Player Credits no overall limit but up to £80,000 per player – to cover player absence during international periods;
Injured Player Credits totalling £400,000 – to allow replacement players to cover for long term injuries;
Two Excluded Players – their entire salary is excluded from the salary cap;
Unlimited education fund for players.
For the 2021-22 Salary Cap Year, the level is being reduced to £5,000,000 with the same credits, save for the total EPS/International Player Credits is capped at £400,000.

Slightly outdated but I presume the cap on injury dispensation remains as is.