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Given Dombrandt was originally signed for Quins as a lock, I'm always surprised he's not more of a lineout threat. I know he does jump, but I don't believe Quins use him regularly (If someone can confirm for my poor memory?). You're right in that it feels like low-hanging fruit for him to improve to show that he can offer more to England.Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:18 am Is Dombrandt the tallest of the No 8 candidates? Maybe, if he worked on his line-out prowess, it would be a string to his bow that others could not match. It would perhaps help to offer a balanced back-row in a way that would discourage SB from picking a like-for-like younger version of Lawes at 6 - Martin or whoever.
So much of the visual evidence can be misleading, I suppose. My perception is that Dombrandt does not relish the brutality of the set-piece and is a bit casual when it comes to working his nuts off to improve the edges of his game. I hope that is wrong because he still has some categories of skill-set that others cannot match. Basically, I see the ball as firmly in his own court. If he were to work harder than his rivals in games and training, I suspect he could get his nose in front. Anything less will cost him with SB, I imagine.Puja wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:23 amGiven Dombrandt was originally signed for Quins as a lock, I'm always surprised he's not more of a lineout threat. I know he does jump, but I don't believe Quins use him regularly (If someone can confirm for my poor memory?). You're right in that it feels like low-hanging fruit for him to improve to show that he can offer more to England.Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:18 am Is Dombrandt the tallest of the No 8 candidates? Maybe, if he worked on his line-out prowess, it would be a string to his bow that others could not match. It would perhaps help to offer a balanced back-row in a way that would discourage SB from picking a like-for-like younger version of Lawes at 6 - Martin or whoever.
Puja
I think it's more about how Quins want to use him.Puja wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:23 amGiven Dombrandt was originally signed for Quins as a lock, I'm always surprised he's not more of a lineout threat. I know he does jump, but I don't believe Quins use him regularly (If someone can confirm for my poor memory?). You're right in that it feels like low-hanging fruit for him to improve to show that he can offer more to England.Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:18 am Is Dombrandt the tallest of the No 8 candidates? Maybe, if he worked on his line-out prowess, it would be a string to his bow that others could not match. It would perhaps help to offer a balanced back-row in a way that would discourage SB from picking a like-for-like younger version of Lawes at 6 - Martin or whoever.
Puja
That makes a lot of sense. I was looking at things purely from a 'does he want to play for England' POV. You are saying he/Quins/SB can't have it both ways. That leaves a 'take me as I am or not' choice for SB and I'd doubt he will. Of course, others have to graft and adapt to a different role with club/country. I want it from Lawrence, for example. Maybe, Dombrandt can do it too but I'd guess others will get ahead of him.Stom wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 10:49 amI think it's more about how Quins want to use him.Puja wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:23 amGiven Dombrandt was originally signed for Quins as a lock, I'm always surprised he's not more of a lineout threat. I know he does jump, but I don't believe Quins use him regularly (If someone can confirm for my poor memory?). You're right in that it feels like low-hanging fruit for him to improve to show that he can offer more to England.Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:18 am Is Dombrandt the tallest of the No 8 candidates? Maybe, if he worked on his line-out prowess, it would be a string to his bow that others could not match. It would perhaps help to offer a balanced back-row in a way that would discourage SB from picking a like-for-like younger version of Lawes at 6 - Martin or whoever.
Puja
We don't want him tied down in that lineout, we want him being the one peeling off and running with the ball.
It's a chicken and egg question:
Is he involved a lot more in the flashy stuff because that's what he likes and he actively avoids the hard, dirty work?
OR
Do Quins realize that he's very good at the flashy stuff, so actively tell him to leave the hard, dirty work to others?
See the recent opinions that Itoje has had a massive dip in form. No, he's just doing all that dirty work now, not doing so much of the flashy stuff.
Maybe in an environment where he's not given the same license, Dombrandt would struggle to have the same impact?
And maybe that's the part of his game he's been told to work on. His stamina levels have never been world class, so his transformation into an 80 every week player for Quins will come at a cost somewhere else. If he can get that stamina up...
Oh, I think he can eventually get there. He needs two things:Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 11:17 amThat makes a lot of sense. I was looking at things purely from a 'does he want to play for England' POV. You are saying he/Quins/SB can't have it both ways. That leaves a 'take me as I am or not' choice for SB and I'd doubt he will. Of course, others have to graft and adapt to a different role with club/country. I want it from Lawrence, for example. Maybe, Dombrandt can do it too but I'd guess others will get ahead of him.Stom wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 10:49 amI think it's more about how Quins want to use him.Puja wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:23 am
Given Dombrandt was originally signed for Quins as a lock, I'm always surprised he's not more of a lineout threat. I know he does jump, but I don't believe Quins use him regularly (If someone can confirm for my poor memory?). You're right in that it feels like low-hanging fruit for him to improve to show that he can offer more to England.
Puja
We don't want him tied down in that lineout, we want him being the one peeling off and running with the ball.
It's a chicken and egg question:
Is he involved a lot more in the flashy stuff because that's what he likes and he actively avoids the hard, dirty work?
OR
Do Quins realize that he's very good at the flashy stuff, so actively tell him to leave the hard, dirty work to others?
See the recent opinions that Itoje has had a massive dip in form. No, he's just doing all that dirty work now, not doing so much of the flashy stuff.
Maybe in an environment where he's not given the same license, Dombrandt would struggle to have the same impact?
And maybe that's the part of his game he's been told to work on. His stamina levels have never been world class, so his transformation into an 80 every week player for Quins will come at a cost somewhere else. If he can get that stamina up...
100% agree - I’ve been wanting a No.8 who can take that third lineout target role for ages! One of the many things Dallagio brought to the party was this and if it avoids having to pick an ersatz lock at 6 I’m all for that. To be honest if Dombrandt could cover that lineout work, using a powerful but mobile carrying specimen at 6 ( any of Ludlam, Underhill or possibly even Pearson? ) coupled with a flier like Earl at 7 then you have the makings of a nicely balanced back rowOakboy wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:18 am Is Dombrandt the tallest of the No 8 candidates? Maybe, if he worked on his line-out prowess, it would be a string to his bow that others could not match. It would perhaps help to offer a balanced back-row in a way that would discourage SB from picking a like-for-like younger version of Lawes at 6 - Martin or whoever.
This is honestly the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard…Captainhaircut wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 9:06 pm
It does leave Barbeary a bit on the outs. He should probably move to 12…
You are right, of course, but the challenge is to see him (and others) fulfill potential. Maybe, CCS is an example of 'get him in early and reap the reward' - at club level first? He might not theoretically be ahead of guys in their late 20s now but he could be well past them in two years time if he gets enough 1st XV rugby early enough. I can see the club's dilemma but the International set-up has a need too in such cases.Stom wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 8:45 am Look, I get that CCS burst onto the scene and looked good, but he's come into the Quins team and is behind several good players for a spot in the team.
So why he's spoken about as an international AHEAD of Dombrandt or even Kenningham (though injured) I have no idea.
How quick and explosive is CCS on a scale of Sam Simmonds at one extreme and Billy V at the other ?Oakboy wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 9:11 amYou are right, of course, but the challenge is to see him (and others) fulfill potential. Maybe, CCS is an example of 'get him in early and reap the reward' - at club level first? He might not theoretically be ahead of guys in their late 20s now but he could be well past them in two years time if he gets enough 1st XV rugby early enough. I can see the club's dilemma but the International set-up has a need too in such cases.Stom wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 8:45 am Look, I get that CCS burst onto the scene and looked good, but he's come into the Quins team and is behind several good players for a spot in the team.
So why he's spoken about as an international AHEAD of Dombrandt or even Kenningham (though injured) I have no idea.
We're talking guys in their early to mid 20s, though, who are also English. He's not behind Billy or Underhill, he's behind young EQPs (and Launchbury. And Lamb for that matter, but he's home grown).Oakboy wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 9:11 amYou are right, of course, but the challenge is to see him (and others) fulfill potential. Maybe, CCS is an example of 'get him in early and reap the reward' - at club level first? He might not theoretically be ahead of guys in their late 20s now but he could be well past them in two years time if he gets enough 1st XV rugby early enough. I can see the club's dilemma but the International set-up has a need too in such cases.Stom wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 8:45 am Look, I get that CCS burst onto the scene and looked good, but he's come into the Quins team and is behind several good players for a spot in the team.
So why he's spoken about as an international AHEAD of Dombrandt or even Kenningham (though injured) I have no idea.
I agree but if he falls by the wayside was he just not good enough? Or, was the club not prepared to take a long-term view? Or, will the club just let him move on? I think this is a general situation in English rugby. The plegmatic (old-fashioned???) view will probably prevail reasonably enough in most cases and we will carry on not converting junior successes into senior successes. Idealistically, I think we need some new ideas on fast-tracking the very best. Exeter seem more happy about starting Fisilau so perhaps there is movement.Stom wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 10:21 amWe're talking guys in their early to mid 20s, though, who are also English. He's not behind Billy or Underhill, he's behind young EQPs (and Launchbury. And Lamb for that matter, but he's home grown).Oakboy wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 9:11 amYou are right, of course, but the challenge is to see him (and others) fulfill potential. Maybe, CCS is an example of 'get him in early and reap the reward' - at club level first? He might not theoretically be ahead of guys in their late 20s now but he could be well past them in two years time if he gets enough 1st XV rugby early enough. I can see the club's dilemma but the International set-up has a need too in such cases.Stom wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 8:45 am Look, I get that CCS burst onto the scene and looked good, but he's come into the Quins team and is behind several good players for a spot in the team.
So why he's spoken about as an international AHEAD of Dombrandt or even Kenningham (though injured) I have no idea.
If he can't push past those players at club level, why should he push past them at international level?
There are definitely some occasions where a player is being held behind journeymen and it's impacting their development - Ilione being deprived of gametime by Rogerson and Hatherell at Leicester, for example. However, CCS isn't lacking gametime to the extent that it's damaging his development - he's being presented with a challenge of "show me that you deserve this shirt full-time", which is likely to improve him far more than just gifting him starts and basically telling him he's good enough as he is.Oakboy wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 12:05 pmI agree but if he falls by the wayside was he just not good enough? Or, was the club not prepared to take a long-term view? Or, will the club just let him move on? I think this is a general situation in English rugby. The plegmatic (old-fashioned???) view will probably prevail reasonably enough in most cases and we will carry on not converting junior successes into senior successes. Idealistically, I think we need some new ideas on fast-tracking the very best. Exeter seem more happy about starting Fisilau so perhaps there is movement.Stom wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 10:21 amWe're talking guys in their early to mid 20s, though, who are also English. He's not behind Billy or Underhill, he's behind young EQPs (and Launchbury. And Lamb for that matter, but he's home grown).Oakboy wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 9:11 am
You are right, of course, but the challenge is to see him (and others) fulfill potential. Maybe, CCS is an example of 'get him in early and reap the reward' - at club level first? He might not theoretically be ahead of guys in their late 20s now but he could be well past them in two years time if he gets enough 1st XV rugby early enough. I can see the club's dilemma but the International set-up has a need too in such cases.
If he can't push past those players at club level, why should he push past them at international level?
One problem with fast tracking is the (lack of) follow up if development is required; we've seen it a lot with England tbh. We have so many players (currently) that its easier to discard than work hard with individuals, even if you have coaches good enough to make a difference (and there are too few), and individuals who are willing to develop.Oakboy wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 12:05 pmI agree but if he falls by the wayside was he just not good enough? Or, was the club not prepared to take a long-term view? Or, will the club just let him move on? I think this is a general situation in English rugby. The plegmatic (old-fashioned???) view will probably prevail reasonably enough in most cases and we will carry on not converting junior successes into senior successes. Idealistically, I think we need some new ideas on fast-tracking the very best. Exeter seem more happy about starting Fisilau so perhaps there is movement.Stom wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 10:21 amWe're talking guys in their early to mid 20s, though, who are also English. He's not behind Billy or Underhill, he's behind young EQPs (and Launchbury. And Lamb for that matter, but he's home grown).Oakboy wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 9:11 am
You are right, of course, but the challenge is to see him (and others) fulfill potential. Maybe, CCS is an example of 'get him in early and reap the reward' - at club level first? He might not theoretically be ahead of guys in their late 20s now but he could be well past them in two years time if he gets enough 1st XV rugby early enough. I can see the club's dilemma but the International set-up has a need too in such cases.
If he can't push past those players at club level, why should he push past them at international level?
Good points. If we had a 'young-pretender-Dupont' at 16 would he end up as the 'all-time great-Dupont' that he has with France? It's the thought of losing such potential to other sports or careers that I have such concerns about. Are we resigned to only a Farrell or two with parental pedigree etc. getting a functional performer to the top?Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 1:41 pmOne problem with fast tracking is the (lack of) follow up if development is required; we've seen it a lot with England tbh. We have so many players (currently) that its easier to discard than work hard with individuals, even if you have coaches good enough to make a difference (and there are too few), and individuals who are willing to develop.Oakboy wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 12:05 pmI agree but if he falls by the wayside was he just not good enough? Or, was the club not prepared to take a long-term view? Or, will the club just let him move on? I think this is a general situation in English rugby. The plegmatic (old-fashioned???) view will probably prevail reasonably enough in most cases and we will carry on not converting junior successes into senior successes. Idealistically, I think we need some new ideas on fast-tracking the very best. Exeter seem more happy about starting Fisilau so perhaps there is movement.Stom wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 10:21 am
We're talking guys in their early to mid 20s, though, who are also English. He's not behind Billy or Underhill, he's behind young EQPs (and Launchbury. And Lamb for that matter, but he's home grown).
If he can't push past those players at club level, why should he push past them at international level?
Technically speaking, correct, but pretty specious. Tom Curry's first caps may have come on the 2017 Argentina tour, which was basically a 2nd XV due to clashing with the Lions, but his first real run in the full first choice England side came in the 2019 6N, back when he'd gone away and improved and become a lynchpin of the Sale side.Captainhaircut wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 11:03 am Tom Curry wasn’t getting a game for Sale when we picked him either. CCS has an incredibly high level in terms of size, power, athleticism and line out ability.
I’d be getting him in straight away. Martin, Itoje, CCS, Underhill, earl with chessum and mercer/Barbeary on the bench. Stopping power, carrying, work rate, 3 line out jumpers. Bit light on ball handling but given our limited game plan, not really an issue.
Focus on picking the best props for a tight game (probably Obano and Stuart at the moment) with Genge and Dan to come off the bench.