RugbyRebels

FKAS wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 12:16 pm

fivepointer wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 11:36 am Here is the DT article Dors refers to above about installing a DoR.

https://12ft.io/proxy?&q=https%3A%2F%2F ... -borthwick

Seems to me to be a thoroughly good idea.

"In retrospect, it seems a clear mistake that Borthwick was allowed to recruit his entire coaching staff from Leicester Tigers at considerable expense."

Only Sinfield and Borthwick were costly the others had contracts up for renewal in the summer or in the case of Harrison would not have been expensive.

I'll take you point on the expense, but someone really should've stopped Shiny Brandnew from recruiting his entire Leicester staff. Him and Sinfield came as a double-act, sure, and Walters is highly regarded, but allowing him to choose relative neophytes in Harrison and Wigglesworth was bizarre. Quite apart from the fact that surely Leicester didn't have the preminent coaching team in the world in every position and there were likely better options who weren't mates with Bailbonds, it was an opportunity to get some experienced heads in there who could offer support and a different perspective if, to pick a random example, things started going wrong.

It should've been the job of O'Shea to step in and say, "You can't have everyone from Leicester, it'll be too parochial and insular. You have a budget to go shopping - find someone else."

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 12:36 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 12:16 pm

fivepointer wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 11:36 am Here is the DT article Dors refers to above about installing a DoR.

https://12ft.io/proxy?&q=https%3A%2F%2F ... -borthwick

Seems to me to be a thoroughly good idea.

"In retrospect, it seems a clear mistake that Borthwick was allowed to recruit his entire coaching staff from Leicester Tigers at considerable expense."

Only Sinfield and Borthwick were costly the others had contracts up for renewal in the summer or in the case of Harrison would not have been expensive.

I'll take you point on the expense, but someone really should've stopped Shiny Brandnew from recruiting his entire Leicester staff. Him and Sinfield came as a double-act, sure, and Walters is highly regarded, but allowing him to choose relative neophytes in Harrison and Wigglesworth was bizarre. Quite apart from the fact that surely Leicester didn't have the preminent coaching team in the world in every position and there were likely better options who weren't mates with Bailbonds, it was an opportunity to get some experienced heads in there who could offer support and a different perspective if, to pick a random example, things started going wrong.

It should've been the job of O'Shea to step in and say, "You can't have everyone from Leicester, it'll be too parochial and insular. You have a budget to go shopping - find someone else."

Puja

Quite. Assuming he has the authority to do just that.

fivepointer wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 1:14 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 12:36 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 12:16 pm

"In retrospect, it seems a clear mistake that Borthwick was allowed to recruit his entire coaching staff from Leicester Tigers at considerable expense."

Only Sinfield and Borthwick were costly the others had contracts up for renewal in the summer or in the case of Harrison would not have been expensive.

I'll take you point on the expense, but someone really should've stopped Shiny Brandnew from recruiting his entire Leicester staff. Him and Sinfield came as a double-act, sure, and Walters is highly regarded, but allowing him to choose relative neophytes in Harrison and Wigglesworth was bizarre. Quite apart from the fact that surely Leicester didn't have the preminent coaching team in the world in every position and there were likely better options who weren't mates with Bailbonds, it was an opportunity to get some experienced heads in there who could offer support and a different perspective if, to pick a random example, things started going wrong.

It should've been the job of O'Shea to step in and say, "You can't have everyone from Leicester, it'll be too parochial and insular. You have a budget to go shopping - find someone else."

Puja

Quite. Assuming he has the authority to do just that.

What is the point of him if he doesn't though?

Puja

Our attack coach has 33 appearances and scored 5 points ....................Will Stuart & Cole each have a better return.

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 1:38 pm

fivepointer wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 1:14 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 12:36 pm

I'll take you point on the expense, but someone really should've stopped Shiny Brandnew from recruiting his entire Leicester staff. Him and Sinfield came as a double-act, sure, and Walters is highly regarded, but allowing him to choose relative neophytes in Harrison and Wigglesworth was bizarre. Quite apart from the fact that surely Leicester didn't have the preminent coaching team in the world in every position and there were likely better options who weren't mates with Bailbonds, it was an opportunity to get some experienced heads in there who could offer support and a different perspective if, to pick a random example, things started going wrong.

It should've been the job of O'Shea to step in and say, "You can't have everyone from Leicester, it'll be too parochial and insular. You have a budget to go shopping - find someone else."

Puja

Quite. Assuming he has the authority to do just that.

What is the point of him if he doesn't though?

Puja

I think it was Peel who talked about O'Shea doing the interviews for the scrum coach position as they talked about Peel putting his name forward. Rumours were he was Borthwick's preferred choice.

Wigglesworth being out of contract and Harrison being cheap kinda sounds to me like the RFU thought they were being clever bringing in Borthwick's backroom team from his successful Tigers stint and also saving some cash. Even the Tigers fans were surprised that they couldn't find anyone better. They might well develop into great coaches but right now they are rookies.

Quins did rule out Evans rejoining on a temp basis, perhaps the RFU were banking on that agreement continuing.

It’s almost like the RFU farked up really badly meaning they sacked an entire staff mid season, and paid them all off, and then had to go hunting for a new coaching staff mid season with less than 12 months to the RWC meaning the pool of eligible candidates were slim and expensive…

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 2:18 pm It’s almost like the RFU farked up really badly meaning they sacked an entire staff mid season, and paid them all off, and then had to go hunting for a new coaching staff mid season with less than 12 months to the RWC meaning the pool of eligible candidates were slim and expensive…

I don't blame the RFU for finally coming to their senses and dumping Jones. Results and his attitude to authority made that inevitable. Retaining some of the coaching assistants is an interesting debate. The fact that Jones had such a turnover possibly gave reason to question their ability. They were an integral part of the decline. Would a new Head Coach want them or would he prefer a fresh start? Presumably, the possibility of appointing one of the assistants as temporary HC for the RWC was considered with nobody deemed adequate (or free from the taint of failure).

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 12:30 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 12:04 pm

fivepointer wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 11:36 am Here is the DT article Dors refers to above about installing a DoR.

https://12ft.io/proxy?&q=https%3A%2F%2F ... -borthwick

Seems to me to be a thoroughly good idea.

nothing new. was done before and is now mainly covered by conor o'shea's role.

IMO its less about structure/title, more about strategy and people.

Did Jones have to report to O’Shea?

No (which was a key 'point' in the article), but the DOR with coach reporting to them has been done before. Buggering around with titles and org charts misses the point.

Okay. Seemed like a valid point to me that Jones was basically just doing whatever he wanted and had nobody to reign him in. Calling that a personnel problem or an issue with structure/remit both seem fair.

Are you generally of the opinion O’Shea isn’t doing a great job? I can’t say I really pay a huge amount of attention to anybody beyond the on-field team and their direct coaching crew.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 2:44 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 2:18 pm It’s almost like the RFU farked up really badly meaning they sacked an entire staff mid season, and paid them all off, and then had to go hunting for a new coaching staff mid season with less than 12 months to the RWC meaning the pool of eligible candidates were slim and expensive…

I don't blame the RFU for finally coming to their senses and dumping Jones. Results and his attitude to authority made that inevitable. Retaining some of the coaching assistants is an interesting debate. The fact that Jones had such a turnover possibly gave reason to question their ability. They were an integral part of the decline. Would a new Head Coach want them or would he prefer a fresh start? Presumably, the possibility of appointing one of the assistants as temporary HC for the RWC was considered with nobody deemed adequate (or free from the taint of failure).

I do blame the RFU for dumping Jones when they did.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 2:44 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 2:18 pm It’s almost like the RFU farked up really badly meaning they sacked an entire staff mid season, and paid them all off, and then had to go hunting for a new coaching staff mid season with less than 12 months to the RWC meaning the pool of eligible candidates were slim and expensive…

I don't blame the RFU for finally coming to their senses and dumping Jones. Results and his attitude to authority made that inevitable. Retaining some of the coaching assistants is an interesting debate. The fact that Jones had such a turnover possibly gave reason to question their ability. They were an integral part of the decline. Would a new Head Coach want them or would he prefer a fresh start? Presumably, the possibility of appointing one of the assistants as temporary HC for the RWC was considered with nobody deemed adequate (or free from the taint of failure).

I mean, it's not like keeping Gleeson would've spectacularly improved the experience quotient among the backroom staff, nor whichever Australian rugby league player was the defence coach that week. I can't even remember who his scrum coach was, although they can't've been great. Actually, while we are all bagging on Harrison here for being young enough that Leicester wouldn't play him in their backline, our scrum has been pretty solid since he joined, hasn't it? Certainly on the lower-tier of our many problems at least.

Puja

The irony of Earl ending up at no.8 when the similarly built Sam Simmonds could have remained there. I do think Saggy Bagpuss likes a wrecking ball at 8 though so don’t be surprised if Martin’s pitched in there. Similar thoughts by Rugby World: https://www.rugbyworld.com/news/analysi ... now-156922

jngf wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 3:33 pm The irony of Earl ending up at no.8 when the similarly built Sam Simmonds could have remained there. I do think Saggy Bagpuss likes a wrecking ball at 8 though so don’t be surprised if Martin’s pitched in there. Similar thoughts by Rugby World: https://www.rugbyworld.com/news/analysi ... now-156922

This person seems rather confused, and certainly doesn’t seem to have ever watched Jack Dempsey play.

Obviously there are lots of different ways to balance a back-row, but dealing with scrums, kickoffs and kick returns as an 8 I’d say are things worth having a player devote some time to. Although I don’t think it’s unfair to expect some players to be able to play multiple ways, it’s as much about constantly shifting your role in a system that probably causes more issues.

He asks regarding Dombrandt why you would have someone playing a completely different role from their club game before saying that sticking a flanker there isn’t a big deal.

Dombrandt looked perpetually out of sync in his England run, but it never felt like we had any specific idea of how to use him or a clear gameplan that would have better suited anybody else. The more I see of the other options the less it feels like Borthwick knows what he wants - other than a 2016 Billy.

Back to the important point though. Yes. Sam Simmonds and Ben Earl are a similar height and weight. Irony overload. So irony.

In more cheerful news, here is an interesting "behind the scenes" article about England's recovering from losing 36-0 to getting to the final in 2007: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/ ... oe-worsley

Puja

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 3:08 pm Okay. Seemed like a valid point to me that Jones was basically just doing whatever he wanted and had nobody to reign him in. Calling that a personnel problem or an issue with structure/remit both seem fair.

Are you generally of the opinion O’Shea isn’t doing a great job? I can’t say I really pay a huge amount of attention to anybody beyond the on-field team and their direct coaching crew.

He had Sweeney to reign him in, and plenty of people around to advise Sweeney, so I think the article is making quite a lot of extrapolations and assumptions. Sweeney is no mug, frankly, despite what many say - if anything he's more machiavellian than Jones!

COS is a decent bloke, but his job is overseeing the whole pro game, and not even accountable for the England team (which is the point of the article- the author is saying Jones and then Borthwick should have reported into O'Shea's role, but implying not O'Shea himself). Its an almost impossible gig as PRL are a mare and there is cck all funding for the champ....and money is tight generally. (RFU is haemorrhaging cash, and that will get worse with the men's team being pants; it's also prioritising Women's rugby funding over the champ, and spaffing cash at the first team remuneration for RWC).

The governance of the game, the governance between PRL and the RFU are the really big issues in the English game at the moment; granted the latest recruitment process was poorly done- but again governance really. The problems lie with strategy or lack of it (and associated governance).

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 1:38 pm

fivepointer wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 1:14 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 12:36 pm

I'll take you point on the expense, but someone really should've stopped Shiny Brandnew from recruiting his entire Leicester staff. Him and Sinfield came as a double-act, sure, and Walters is highly regarded, but allowing him to choose relative neophytes in Harrison and Wigglesworth was bizarre. Quite apart from the fact that surely Leicester didn't have the preminent coaching team in the world in every position and there were likely better options who weren't mates with Bailbonds, it was an opportunity to get some experienced heads in there who could offer support and a different perspective if, to pick a random example, things started going wrong.

It should've been the job of O'Shea to step in and say, "You can't have everyone from Leicester, it'll be too parochial and insular. You have a budget to go shopping - find someone else."

Puja

Quite. Assuming he has the authority to do just that.

What is the point of him if he doesn't though?

Puja

He oversees all the pro game. Currently the head coach still reports to Sweeney as per the article.

Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 4:50 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 3:08 pm Okay. Seemed like a valid point to me that Jones was basically just doing whatever he wanted and had nobody to reign him in. Calling that a personnel problem or an issue with structure/remit both seem fair.

Are you generally of the opinion O’Shea isn’t doing a great job? I can’t say I really pay a huge amount of attention to anybody beyond the on-field team and their direct coaching crew.

He had Sweeney to reign him in, and plenty of people around to advise Sweeney, so I think the article is making quite a lot of extrapolations and assumptions. Sweeney is no mug, frankly, despite what many say - if anything he's more machiavellian than Jones!

COS is a decent bloke, but his job is overseeing the whole pro game, and not even accountable for the England team (which is the point of the article- the author is saying Jones and then Borthwick should have reported into O'Shea's role, but implying not O'Shea himself). Its an almost impossible gig as PRL are a mare and there is cck all funding for the champ....and money is tight generally. (RFU is haemorrhaging cash, and that will get worse with the men's team being pants; it's also prioritising Women's rugby funding over the champ, and spaffing cash at the first team remuneration for RWC).

The governance of the game, the governance between PRL and the RFU are the really big issues in the English game at the moment; granted the latest recruitment process was poorly done- but again governance really. The problems lie with strategy or lack of it (and associated governance).

I am still surprised that demand leaving the gate 30,000 short of capacity for the Fiji game is not ringing more alarm bells. Booing at Twickers was a warning. Any sort of downward spiral that affects ticket sales could be grim (should the rail-strike excuse not be the main reason).

Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 5:17 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 4:50 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 3:08 pm Okay. Seemed like a valid point to me that Jones was basically just doing whatever he wanted and had nobody to reign him in. Calling that a personnel problem or an issue with structure/remit both seem fair.

Are you generally of the opinion O’Shea isn’t doing a great job? I can’t say I really pay a huge amount of attention to anybody beyond the on-field team and their direct coaching crew.

He had Sweeney to reign him in, and plenty of people around to advise Sweeney, so I think the article is making quite a lot of extrapolations and assumptions. Sweeney is no mug, frankly, despite what many say - if anything he's more machiavellian than Jones!

COS is a decent bloke, but his job is overseeing the whole pro game, and not even accountable for the England team (which is the point of the article- the author is saying Jones and then Borthwick should have reported into O'Shea's role, but implying not O'Shea himself). Its an almost impossible gig as PRL are a mare and there is cck all funding for the champ....and money is tight generally. (RFU is haemorrhaging cash, and that will get worse with the men's team being pants; it's also prioritising Women's rugby funding over the champ, and spaffing cash at the first team remuneration for RWC).

The governance of the game, the governance between PRL and the RFU are the really big issues in the English game at the moment; granted the latest recruitment process was poorly done- but again governance really. The problems lie with strategy or lack of it (and associated governance).

I am still surprised that demand leaving the gate 30,000 short of capacity for the Fiji game is not ringing more alarm bells. Booing at Twickers was a warning. Any sort of downward spiral that affects ticket sales could be grim (should the rail-strike excuse not be the main reason).

I think they only put 56000 on sale tbf. They made a bomb the night before tho. but this is a doom spiral for sure.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 5:17 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 4:50 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 3:08 pm Okay. Seemed like a valid point to me that Jones was basically just doing whatever he wanted and had nobody to reign him in. Calling that a personnel problem or an issue with structure/remit both seem fair.

Are you generally of the opinion O’Shea isn’t doing a great job? I can’t say I really pay a huge amount of attention to anybody beyond the on-field team and their direct coaching crew.

He had Sweeney to reign him in, and plenty of people around to advise Sweeney, so I think the article is making quite a lot of extrapolations and assumptions. Sweeney is no mug, frankly, despite what many say - if anything he's more machiavellian than Jones!

COS is a decent bloke, but his job is overseeing the whole pro game, and not even accountable for the England team (which is the point of the article- the author is saying Jones and then Borthwick should have reported into O'Shea's role, but implying not O'Shea himself). Its an almost impossible gig as PRL are a mare and there is cck all funding for the champ....and money is tight generally. (RFU is haemorrhaging cash, and that will get worse with the men's team being pants; it's also prioritising Women's rugby funding over the champ, and spaffing cash at the first team remuneration for RWC).

The governance of the game, the governance between PRL and the RFU are the really big issues in the English game at the moment; granted the latest recruitment process was poorly done- but again governance really. The problems lie with strategy or lack of it (and associated governance).

I am still surprised that demand leaving the gate 30,000 short of capacity for the Fiji game is not ringing more alarm bells. Booing at Twickers was a warning. Any sort of downward spiral that affects ticket sales could be grim (should the rail-strike excuse not be the main reason).

I will note that England don't always sell out the T2 Twickenham test for previous AIs and RWC warmups. People are talking about 55k for Fiji like there's never been a below capacity crowd at Twickenham before, but it's no surprise that, with high ticket prices, cost of living crisis, and a perceived weaker opposition that the Wales game filled up first and fastest, leaving the game that was expected (by casuals) to be a 40 point saunter as a luxury rather than an essential. I don't think it's a case that we're going to start seeing empty seats for the bigger (to casuals) matches.

No doubt though that ticket sales would've kept going for a bit further past 55k, had this England team looked like being even slightly entertaining or competent, but I still wouldn't've expected anything above 65k for the prices they were asking.

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 8:28 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 5:17 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 4:50 pm

He had Sweeney to reign him in, and plenty of people around to advise Sweeney, so I think the article is making quite a lot of extrapolations and assumptions. Sweeney is no mug, frankly, despite what many say - if anything he's more machiavellian than Jones!

COS is a decent bloke, but his job is overseeing the whole pro game, and not even accountable for the England team (which is the point of the article- the author is saying Jones and then Borthwick should have reported into O'Shea's role, but implying not O'Shea himself). Its an almost impossible gig as PRL are a mare and there is cck all funding for the champ....and money is tight generally. (RFU is haemorrhaging cash, and that will get worse with the men's team being pants; it's also prioritising Women's rugby funding over the champ, and spaffing cash at the first team remuneration for RWC).

The governance of the game, the governance between PRL and the RFU are the really big issues in the English game at the moment; granted the latest recruitment process was poorly done- but again governance really. The problems lie with strategy or lack of it (and associated governance).

I am still surprised that demand leaving the gate 30,000 short of capacity for the Fiji game is not ringing more alarm bells. Booing at Twickers was a warning. Any sort of downward spiral that affects ticket sales could be grim (should the rail-strike excuse not be the main reason).

I will note that England don't always sell out the T2 Twickenham test for previous AIs and RWC warmups. People are talking about 55k for Fiji like there's never been a below capacity crowd at Twickenham before, but it's no surprise that, with high ticket prices, cost of living crisis, and a perceived weaker opposition that the Wales game filled up first and fastest, leaving the game that was expected (by casuals) to be a 40 point saunter as a luxury rather than an essential. I don't think it's a case that we're going to start seeing empty seats for the bigger (to casuals) matches.

No doubt though that ticket sales would've kept going for a bit further past 55k, had this England team looked like being even slightly entertaining or competent, but I still wouldn't've expected anything above 65k for the prices they were asking.

Puja

Fair enough. I suppose I credited the game as more important because I feared the result - no matter what the bookies said.

Joe Heyes being named to start in Tigers' friendly this weekend bodes well for Sinckler's injury troubles.

Puja

Not sure how much store to put in that given how many injuries the camp has been carrying to date

Good old EJ
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/66679950

He is right about the RFU being a broken process though.

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 11:23 am Good old EJ
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/66679950

Bit of audio:
https://x.com/alexmlowe/status/16975194 ... MV3j-SK8yQ

Remember, it’s never Eddie’s fault. Not that I think he’s necessarily wrong.