RugbyRebels

cashead wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2024 4:17 am Well, if one is not happy about the government they ended up with, then perhaps, one could have mustered up enough fucks on the relevant day to go out and vote.

You end up with the government you didn't vote for, and unlike those who did vote, you don't get to complain either.

cashead wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2024 4:17 am Well, if one is not happy about the government they ended up with, then perhaps, one could have mustered up enough fucks on the relevant day to go out and vote.

You end up with the government you didn't vote for, and unlike those who did vote, you don't get to complain either.

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2024 7:30 am

cashead wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2024 4:17 am Well, if one is not happy about the government they ended up with, then perhaps, one could have mustered up enough fucks on the relevant day to go out and vote.

You end up with the government you didn't vote for, and unlike those who did vote, you don't get to complain either.

Agreed. I think a lot of voters can’t find a party that completely aligns with their views so don’t bother voting. I don’t think PR would change that. The ability to compromise needs to make a comeback.

Tactical voting is a pain in the arse to be fair. But if you can’t be arsed to vote out a hugely unpopular party then you have no right to complain if it somehow remains in power.

I suspect many of the absentees this time around were lifelong Tory voters who couldn’t vote for the shambles their parties become but wouldn’t touch reform with a sterilised barge pole. I’m not so worried about that as a one off but it would be more concerning if that trend were to be repeated.

Also worth considering that the turnout was dreadful in 2001. Since the Tories were experimenting with reform like policies at that point that might again be no surprise. The stat for Tory MPs shouldn’t be the rise of reform but perhaps
More the number of Tory voters who just didn’t bother and could be tempted back.

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2024 9:04 am

Starmwr and Davey played a blinder under the rules of the system.

Donny osmond wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2024 8:45 am I'm finding the vote share chat more than a little tedious, and the suggestion that it points to a lack of legitimacy is frankly crackers.

Winning 34% of the vote in a 2 horse race **might** indicate ... something. Winning 34% of the vote when there are 6 or 7 parties to choose from is a genuine result.

Everyone who voted for a party other than Conservative knew that they were contributing to a Labour win. Those Reform voters weren't voting Reform to get a Rf-Con coalition government, they knew they were contributing to a Labour win.

To ignore the multiple nuances involved in a GE and simply look at a 34% vote share as if it were only a 2 horse race, to me that's a completely illegitimate analysis

Donny osmond wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2024 8:45 am I'm finding the vote share chat more than a little tedious, and the suggestion that it points to a lack of legitimacy is frankly crackers.

Winning 34% of the vote in a 2 horse race **might** indicate ... something. Winning 34% of the vote when there are 6 or 7 parties to choose from is a genuine result.

Everyone who voted for a party other than Conservative knew that they were contributing to a Labour win. Those Reform voters weren't voting Reform to get a Rf-Con coalition government, they knew they were contributing to a Labour win.

To ignore the multiple nuances involved in a GE and simply look at a 34% vote share as if it were only a 2 horse race, to me that's a completely illegitimate analysis

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2024 9:22 am

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2024 9:04 am

Starmwr and Davey played a blinder under the rules of the system.

Nobody should be denying that, its self evident, terrific campaigning and coordinating/capitalising on tactical voting. Bit like Brexit . played the system rules.

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2024 10:52 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2024 9:22 am

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2024 9:04 am

Starmwr and Davey played a blinder under the rules of the system.

Nobody should be denying that, its self evident, terrific campaigning and coordinating/capitalising on tactical voting. Bit like Brexit . played the system rules.

Except for false claims
Of £350m a week

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2024 10:53 am

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2024 10:52 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2024 9:22 am

Nobody should be denying that, its self evident, terrific campaigning and coordinating/capitalising on tactical voting. Bit like Brexit . played the system rules.

Except for false claims
Of £350m a week

so no false claims by Labour or the libral demcrats ? . i was mildly joking.

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2024 10:55 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2024 10:53 am

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2024 10:52 am

Except for false claims
Of £350m a week

so no false claims by Labour or the libral demcrats ? . i was mildly joking.

Nothing quite as blatant by anyone as that total bollocks.

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2024 10:54 am Also the high likelihood of a landslide would put some people off voting. Must have contributed a bit to the lower turnout.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2024 11:26 am A portion of people who feel like they’re just getting fucked by the system (regardless of who is in charge) not making the time in their lives to go out and support that system is not surprising in the slightest, surely?

Obviously there’s a bunch of lazy or indifferent non-voters too, but not giving your time to a system that doesn’t work or serve you seems valid enough.

I do generally think people should get out and vote if they can, but for a lot of people it’s a demand of their time that offers nothing in return. It’s not their responsibility to have to come up with a voting system that actually rewards higher overall turnout.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2024 11:54 am Of course, yeah, I’m just saying it’s not a question with such a simple answer.

For me it took an extra 5 minutes out of my day. I’m very fortunate. I’m not trekking hours back and forth from a minimum wage job (or two) or dragging a bunch of kids around (or trying to find someone to take care of them on the cheap) in order to change the tally by 1.

Obviously in the real world most politicians aren’t going to use their time and resources on people that don’t care, but it works both ways.

Zhivago wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2024 3:30 am
Although we're probably all happy to see the backs of the tories. There's potentially a lack of democratic legitimacy here.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2024 11:26 am A portion of people who feel like they’re just getting fucked by the system (regardless of who is in charge) not making the time in their lives to go out and support that system is not surprising in the slightest, surely?

Obviously there’s a bunch of lazy or indifferent non-voters too, but not giving your time to a system that doesn’t work or serve you seems valid enough.

I do generally think people should get out and vote if they can, but for a lot of people it’s a demand of their time that offers nothing in return. It’s not their responsibility to have to come up with a voting system that actually rewards higher overall turnout.

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2024 7:01 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2024 11:26 am A portion of people who feel like they’re just getting fucked by the system (regardless of who is in charge) not making the time in their lives to go out and support that system is not surprising in the slightest, surely?

Obviously there’s a bunch of lazy or indifferent non-voters too, but not giving your time to a system that doesn’t work or serve you seems valid enough.

I do generally think people should get out and vote if they can, but for a lot of people it’s a demand of their time that offers nothing in return. It’s not their responsibility to have to come up with a voting system that actually rewards higher overall turnout.

And if they don’t vote the they will continue to get the short end of a shitty stick. Old people tend to vote more, so politicians pander to them. It’s really that simple.

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2024 7:01 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2024 11:26 am A portion of people who feel like they’re just getting fucked by the system (regardless of who is in charge) not making the time in their lives to go out and support that system is not surprising in the slightest, surely?

Obviously there’s a bunch of lazy or indifferent non-voters too, but not giving your time to a system that doesn’t work or serve you seems valid enough.

I do generally think people should get out and vote if they can, but for a lot of people it’s a demand of their time that offers nothing in return. It’s not their responsibility to have to come up with a voting system that actually rewards higher overall turnout.

And if they don’t vote the they will continue to get the short end of a shitty stick. Old people tend to vote more, so politicians pander to them. It’s really that simple.

Puja wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2024 12:32 am

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2024 7:01 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2024 11:26 am A portion of people who feel like they’re just getting fucked by the system (regardless of who is in charge) not making the time in their lives to go out and support that system is not surprising in the slightest, surely?

Obviously there’s a bunch of lazy or indifferent non-voters too, but not giving your time to a system that doesn’t work or serve you seems valid enough.

I do generally think people should get out and vote if they can, but for a lot of people it’s a demand of their time that offers nothing in return. It’s not their responsibility to have to come up with a voting system that actually rewards higher overall turnout.

And if they don’t vote the they will continue to get the short end of a shitty stick. Old people tend to vote more, so politicians pander to them. It’s really that simple.

But young people did vote in large numbers in 2017 and 2019. From their perspective, it got them nowhere, and the guy who came in to replace the one they voted for, took away all of the policies and positions that attracted them, and scoured the party clear of any hint of those policies and positions coming back in future. I don't disagree with your "don't vote, don't complain" position in the slightest, but I also do get why quite a few feel like they're not going to get listened to even when they do vote.

Puja