Trump

[Digby]

Hardly just Twitter, just in the lat day or so Trump said of Covid-19 'a lot of good things are going to happen'. One suspects he means in terms of how the handle a crisis not the dead people, but you never know, and you'd also wonder how he thinks they're addressing this with even basic competency rather appallingly, essentially we've just more examples of him assuming he's good at something than any lowering of standards on his part

[Mikey Brown]

The voters have spoken. Wherever the leap is, it is where the majority wants to go.
Whomever I am voting, I am guaranteed he performs better than 45, if elected.

That is surely such a laughably low bar that it isn’t really worth recognising. There was a glimmer of a chance of someone who might actually challenge a system that seems to be built almost entirely on bribery and corruption. But no, too radical. Oh well.

Biden has needed very little help in looking senile. You questioned (I think) why the MAGA lot would push that angle given Donnie’s performances over the last few years but that has always been the Trump MO.

Not Trump’s performance as a president, his Twitter speeches, his public speeches, his meetings with experts .... plenty of evidence of degrading mental capacities compared to 2016.

BTW, the system is not “entirely built on bribery and corruption”, rather it has been perverted this way. As for “ too radical, too mild”, my opinion is just 1 vote: in a democracy majority rules. You want radical, get a radical majority.

The radical changes I have seen were overdue by the time the majority accepted and supported them. And long overdue when they could swing or change the political class to implement them. To me, it seems like democracies work like this, maybe with the exception of France. You know, it takes very little time for the French to go to the streets and protest.

At least one of us is not understanding the other here.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

It looks like it’s all over bar the shouting. I suppose the real question now is how nasty the row gets between now and the Democratic convention and whether it’s possible to build a consensus as a party to really challenge Trump.

I read somewhere that last time out, about 15-20% of Sanders supporters voted Trump. Biden will need that support if he is going to get elected.

Or he needs them not to vote period. Though actually across the rust belt where many blue collar workers voted Trump when they might normally go Democrat it looks the case Biden is a far stronger candidate to Clinton

What I simply don't have a read on is what happens to all those Conservatives who didn't vote last time or voted Libertarian? Will a possible Democratic win influence them to vote for Trump, or are they simply Trump averse?

I guess Biden may at least be a good shout for those people. I'd imagine he will appeal more to them than anybody on the left.

He's an enormous backwards step in general, but anything non-Trump has to be viewed as progress I suppose.

I just wish I could stop having an interest entirely.

It is not an enormous backwards step. If elected Biden would have the most liberal programme of any President ever. It is a more liberal programme than Hillary stood on or Obama. That's not even my assessment - I haven't looked at the nitty gritty enough to know. That's the assessment of the Obama speech writers who are very definitely not uncritical of Biden who present Pod Save America..

[Digby]

Maybe the most liberal in the last 30-40 years

[Mikey Brown]

Or he needs them not to vote period. Though actually across the rust belt where many blue collar workers voted Trump when they might normally go Democrat it looks the case Biden is a far stronger candidate to Clinton

What I simply don't have a read on is what happens to all those Conservatives who didn't vote last time or voted Libertarian? Will a possible Democratic win influence them to vote for Trump, or are they simply Trump averse?

I guess Biden may at least be a good shout for those people. I'd imagine he will appeal more to them than anybody on the left.

He's an enormous backwards step in general, but anything non-Trump has to be viewed as progress I suppose.

I just wish I could stop having an interest entirely.

It is not an enormous backwards step. If elected Biden would have the most liberal programme of any President ever. It is a more liberal programme than Hillary stood on or Obama. That's not even my assessment - I haven't looked at the nitty gritty enough to know. That's the assessment of the Obama speech writers who are very definitely not uncritical of Biden who present Pod Save America..

I've read this three times and can't tell if it's a joke or not.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

I guess Biden may at least be a good shout for those people. I'd imagine he will appeal more to them than anybody on the left.

He's an enormous backwards step in general, but anything non-Trump has to be viewed as progress I suppose.

I just wish I could stop having an interest entirely.

It is not an enormous backwards step. If elected Biden would have the most liberal programme of any President ever. It is a more liberal programme than Hillary stood on or Obama. That's not even my assessment - I haven't looked at the nitty gritty enough to know. That's the assessment of the Obama speech writers who are very definitely not uncritical of Biden who present Pod Save America..

I've read this three times and can't tell if it's a joke or not.

Then you're a straight up cretin or historically illiterate.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

Maybe the most liberal in the last 30-40 years

FDR might be economically more liberal. No one beyond the last 30 years would have been anywhere near as socially liberal.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

https://crooked.com/podcast/joes-super-tuesday/

[Mikey Brown]

It is not an enormous backwards step. If elected Biden would have the most liberal programme of any President ever. It is a more liberal programme than Hillary stood on or Obama. That's not even my assessment - I haven't looked at the nitty gritty enough to know. That's the assessment of the Obama speech writers who are very definitely not uncritical of Biden who present Pod Save America..

I've read this three times and can't tell if it's a joke or not.

Then you're a straight up cretin or historically illiterate.

Because I haven’t blindly bought in to what Jon Favreau and Jon Lovett are saying about it? Good to know.

I’m not denying the Liberal qualities (alongside Clinton and Obama) of his plan necessarily, but that doesn’t make it good.

[morepork]

Mikey,

"liberal" is a relative term, and the 'Murrican version of differs somewhat to the rest of the world. From the outside you see shuffling old dude looking to take charge of a for-profit user pays health system with rampant corporate welfare, but from the inside we see he is claiming he wants to do things like end private prisons, and raise the minimum wage, and using tax income from the most wealthy tax payers to fund infrastructure (public transport), and other scary socialist ideas like that. Is it a laughable definition of progressive? Yes (no Medicare for all under Joe). Is it seen as liberal by the conspiracy small government weirdos that populate the country? Yer darn tootin' it is. Just have a look at the description of a pro-Trump chap attending a conservative event in Florida as reported by a BBC article guaging people's assessment of the government's handling of the coroa beer pandemic:

"Donald Trump is a brilliant guy," said Mike Huey of Palm Beach Gardens. "He knows how to surround himself with brilliant people, and I'm sure he's doing every thing he can to control the situation."

Huey, who runs an online disaster preparation and survivalist gear company, said he has "100% confidence" that the president is doing the right thing.

Dan Ray, who goes by the nickname "Deplorable Dan", also blamed the media, as well as the left and its "Marxist mentality" for what he called "the goofy virus scare".

Ray cited a series of statistics - including fatalities in the US from auto accidents and the seasonal flu - to suggest that American fears were overblown.
As for economic and health concerns, Ray is not personally worried. He said he jams soft soap under his fingernails to keep germs at bay and has been stocking up on silver dollars and survivalist gear for years, just in case of a breakdown in civil order.

"The stock market doesn't affect people like me," he said. "I haven't had a bank account since 1984. I don't have a credit card. If I'm going to buy something, I've got to have cash."

There is nothing you could do to convince people like this that the government can provide a vital unifying service to the country's infrastrcture and preparedness. They distrust government intensely and love the idea of themselves roaming the country with their guns and erections protecting their foul illiterate spouses and opiate-addled brain washed fuck trophies from the horrors of some imagined constant un-American spectre. What they call "Marxist" would hardly qualify as New Labour anywhere else.

I'd invite you over for a look first hand but I don't want your liberal carcass bringing in your engineered communist virus to destroy our glorious god-fearing consanguineous way of life.

[morepork]

Mikey,

"liberal" is a relative term, and the 'Murrican version of differs somewhat to the rest of the world. From the outside you see shuffling old dude looking to take charge of a for-profit user pays health system with rampant corporate welfare, but from the inside we see he is claiming he wants to do things like end private prisons, and raise the minimum wage, and using tax income from the most wealthy tax payers to fund infrastructure (public transport), and other scary socialist ideas like that. Is it a laughable definition of progressive? Yes (no Medicare for all under Joe). Is it seen as liberal by the conspiracy small government weirdos that populate the country? Yer darn tootin' it is. Just have a look at the description of a pro-Trump chap attending a conservative event in Florida as reported by a BBC article guaging people's assessment of the government's handling of the corona beer pandemic:

"Donald Trump is a brilliant guy," said Mike Huey of Palm Beach Gardens. "He knows how to surround himself with brilliant people, and I'm sure he's doing every thing he can to control the situation."

Huey, who runs an online disaster preparation and survivalist gear company, said he has "100% confidence" that the president is doing the right thing.

Dan Ray, who goes by the nickname "Deplorable Dan", also blamed the media, as well as the left and its "Marxist mentality" for what he called "the goofy virus scare".

Ray cited a series of statistics - including fatalities in the US from auto accidents and the seasonal flu - to suggest that American fears were overblown.
As for economic and health concerns, Ray is not personally worried. He said he jams soft soap under his fingernails to keep germs at bay and has been stocking up on silver dollars and survivalist gear for years, just in case of a breakdown in civil order.

"The stock market doesn't affect people like me," he said. "I haven't had a bank account since 1984. I don't have a credit card. If I'm going to buy something, I've got to have cash."

There is nothing you could do to convince people like this that the government can provide a vital unifying service to the country's infrastrcture and preparedness. They distrust government intensely and love the idea of themselves roaming the country with their guns and erections protecting their foul illiterate spouses and opiate-addled brain washed fuck trophies from the horrors of some imagined constant un-American spectre. What they call "Marxist" would hardly qualify as New Labour anywhere else.

I'd invite you over for a look first hand but I don't want your liberal carcass bringing in your engineered communist virus to destroy our glorious god-fearing consanguineous way of life.

[Mikey Brown]

Please don't think my opinion of Biden, Clinton, Obama etc. means I think Trump is any less of a piece of shit. I imagine Biden will be better in general than Trump, yes. Definitely. My "backwards step" comment wasn't in relation to what Trump is doing. I'm not totally sure what angle you were going for there.

Trump has tapped into something for sure. It's understandable so many people are sick and tired of a system that they don't feel benefits them at all, but clearly he should not be the answer.

If Biden want to enact those plans for prisons, minimum wage, taxing the absurdly wealthy then great. That's cool. Seems to me he has some parts of his record that really clash with the idea he cares about poor people, but if he gets it done and it benefits people then great. Though is he genuinely considering Dimon or Bloomberg in cabinet roles, or is that just noise? The guy seems to be a walking contradiction.

It feels like the one thing America could really unite on is they don't want to continue getting fucked in every orifice for the benefit of the millionaires and billionaires. Maybe Biden will address that to some meaningful extent but I wouldn't hold my breath. I'm pretty sure your girl Liz has some very strong opinions on that one.

[Mikey Brown]

Also Liberal is a pretty vague term at this point, as you (sort of) say, and I wasn't really disputing the meaning of it.

Maybe seeing it so often in the phrase "socially liberal, fiscally conservative" has skewed my opinion, as it seems to mean you like the idea of being compassionate but not if it affects the bottom line. That's why I genuinely wasn't sure if Eugene was being serious. There are far more intelligent and informed people than me that think the "pod save America" guys are absolutely full of shit.

[morepork]

Trump is an empty vessel. He has no concept of strategy that would be considered consistent with tapping into anything. He is an obnoxious meat puppet put on stage by people lobbied to further entrench corporate welfare. There is a reason that Trump seldom gives press conferences, and that reason is he is clueless. The current public health situation has compelled his handlers to put him in the public eye to appear in charge, and he simply cannot do it. Everything he touches turns to shit. Anyone thinking that he is functionally competent for anything is either a liar or beyond the reach of any logic or reason. There is absolutely no way in any universe that Trumps actions, over the course of his entire life, could be taken as evidence of fair representation of anyone but himself. People beyond the reach this manifest logic are a lost cause. They will go to their graves this way. These people lower the bar for what most of the rest of the world would consider progressive. This is all I was saying.

I agree with your assessment of Biden et.al. in that the whole process is just more "meh", but there is some hope that the reins will be wrested from the grip of corporate and inherited wealth before the horse well and truly bolts. For real progression to a more equal and competent society? Fuck, I think the US is a generation away from being able to handle a female leader, so I'll take dull old Joe in the interim.

[Digby]

The do poll on a variety of issue with those Democratic Party members who've turned out to vote so far. And in every state where they've held the vote so far for the Democratic nominee one issue has consistently proved most popular with the voters no matter which candidate they voted for, free Medicare for all. There is support building for the policy, and whoever wins, even if it's Trump, needs to feel they're being pushed over and over and over to deliver change, and competent change that actually improves lives, and then they need to feel pressure all over to make further improvements

[morepork]

Joe doesn't support that concept. He will be on a leash held by insurance companies.

[Puja]

It feels like the one thing America could really unite on is they don't want to continue getting fucked in every orifice for the benefit of the millionaires and billionaires.

I have to say I don't agree. There is a sizeable number of American who believe in The American Dream - that anyone can make it here, no matter who you are or who your parents were - and have corrupted it to believe that success is a function of working hard and thus rich people deserve their wealth. They'd look down on a Lord or Duke, but a businessman like Trump or Bloomberg? They're part of The American Dream and any attempt to tax them or get them to contribute is jealousy from those who haven't made it against those that have.

Someone once said that Americans are perpetually in a state of being "not a millionaire - yet". Wealth taxes might not touch them now, but they're outraged at the very that you would attempt to tax the wealth of a hard earning, red-blooded, American capitalist, cause in their heart of hearts, they think that potentially that could be them if they got the breaks.

Puja

[morepork]

Puja. RRs very own undercover Cracker!

[Digby]

Cracker!

Racists and classist, fine work

[morepork]

Shouldn't you be painting your caravan or something?

[Puja]

Puja. RRs very own undercover Cracker!

Confused.gif

Puja

[morepork]

You've tapped into the vein of angry white man outrage at taking money from hard working hedge fund babies. I employed the pejorative term for this demographic. I apologise if any sensitive white people took offence.

[Stom]

It feels like the one thing America could really unite on is they don't want to continue getting fucked in every orifice for the benefit of the millionaires and billionaires.

I have to say I don't agree. There is a sizeable number of American who believe in The American Dream - that anyone can make it here, no matter who you are or who your parents were - and have corrupted it to believe that success is a function of working hard and thus rich people deserve their wealth. They'd look down on a Lord or Duke, but a businessman like Trump or Bloomberg? They're part of The American Dream and any attempt to tax them or get them to contribute is jealousy from those who haven't made it against those that have.

Someone once said that Americans are perpetually in a state of being "not a millionaire - yet". Wealth taxes might not touch them now, but they're outraged at the very that you would attempt to tax the wealth of a hard earning, red-blooded, American capitalist, cause in their heart of hearts, they think that potentially that could be them if they got the breaks.

Puja

The corruption of capitalism is the #1 problem in the world today. Without it, we'd have better healthcare, better equipped to cope with the Mexican piss water virus, we'd have better support for those who find themselves in any difficulty, and we'd have a far more equitable society, while allowing more and more people to become self-made millionaires.

[Digby]

It feels like the one thing America could really unite on is they don't want to continue getting fucked in every orifice for the benefit of the millionaires and billionaires.

I have to say I don't agree. There is a sizeable number of American who believe in The American Dream - that anyone can make it here, no matter who you are or who your parents were - and have corrupted it to believe that success is a function of working hard and thus rich people deserve their wealth. They'd look down on a Lord or Duke, but a businessman like Trump or Bloomberg? They're part of The American Dream and any attempt to tax them or get them to contribute is jealousy from those who haven't made it against those that have.

Someone once said that Americans are perpetually in a state of being "not a millionaire - yet". Wealth taxes might not touch them now, but they're outraged at the very that you would attempt to tax the wealth of a hard earning, red-blooded, American capitalist, cause in their heart of hearts, they think that potentially that could be them if they got the breaks.

Puja

The corruption of capitalism is the #1 problem in the world today. Without it, we'd have better healthcare, better equipped to cope with the Mexican piss water virus, we'd have better support for those who find themselves in any difficulty, and we'd have a far more equitable society, while allowing more and more people to become self-made millionaires.

Without corruption we would indeed be doing better, but we'll have corruption whatever the system

[gransoporro]

Capitalism left to itself is amoral, as in devoid of any morals. That is why it needs regulations.

However it is still the best economic model available. Just not the best social model, unless you are a libertarian.

This said, any program that grants benefits to the poor, paid by the less poor if not the rich, is a redistribution of wealth. It levels the field a little bit, but without any merit based criteria. Here it would be called socialism, unless it has already a name (social security for example).

I prefer the old Swedish angle: the rich contributing more taxes so that the poor can be taken care of is part of the implicit social contract. It is not a burden, but a social duty for the rich to pay high taxes, and the other side of the medal is that in this way they stave off social unrest which is a significant benefit.

Personally, I am ok with more taxes to secure Medicare for all (or most at least). I do not think I am in the majority.