Lions squad named

[Banquo]

SA are favourites in my book. They may not have played as a squad for a long time, they are a well drilled team with most of the parts there that won them the world cup.

That being said, there is no score line other than something daft allowing for draws that would surprise me over the series.

How many of the Lions units have ever played together?

Very few. I saw a table of stats on line and these combinations of players have very little game time together in their respective position groups on tour. Obviously some have played together before (the second rows, VdM and Hogg) but the key combos haven't had much time in games together.

I figured, so that's a worry. On proper Lions tours, you get weeks of tough hit outs to test and gel new combos, alas that isn't the case; the saffers by contrast have a lot of familiarity....but less test hardened I hope! Be interesting.

[Big D]

It’s not the fact that SA beat sent in a RWC. They systematically destroyed that English teams game plan AFTER they almost nilled the AB.

Rassie is smarter and knows that if he gets in the English faces then the English boys will revert to the last 12 months and give penalties away.

The entire Garland game plan is based on matching the saffas forward pack and against the A team the lions failed.

I’d quite like the lions to win but i don’t have blind faith

I really do think you're investing this South African side with mystical power that they don't actually have. Sometimes in rugby, all your plans go to shit, the opposition are up for it, some of your key men have terrible starts and get worse, you don't quite get the touch of luck, and you end up on the wrong end of a dicking when it's a game you should've been competitive in. England had it in 2013 against Wales and it didn't leave the England players scarred and scared of Wales - it left them pissed off and they won the next three encounters (we'll ignore the 4th one!).

That's not to say South Africa aren't a great side or worthy world champions or that they didn't put England comfortably away. But they're also the same side that lost to New Zealand and could very easily have lost to Wales. They're not supermen - they're just a very good side - and they're suffering from this being their second test in 2 years.

Also, that South Africa A game seems largely irrelevant considering that Lions side shares all of 4 starters with the first test XV.

Puja

This. The SA team is impressive but they are not unbelievable. As you say, they nearly blew what should have been a comfortable win Inthe semi against Wales and had lost to NZ earlier on.

They'll be ferocious early on but I don't think theyl be as good as the NZ team last time out (though equally the Lions won't have the luck they had then either).

Yeah I think the first 10-15 minutes will be vital.

I really do think the whole "this is their first real game since the world cup" is over blown though. They have a relatively simple game plan and the players are mostly well versed with each other. This could be anything from 3-0 to 0-3.

I think you make your own luck sometimes. SBW was an idiot and IIRC Warburton got in the ear of the ref for the last call for the knock on/offside. The Lions on the last SA tour were victim of one of the worst reffing decisions I have seen. How Burger didn't walk for a clear eye gouge is still mystifying.

[Banquo]

I really do think you're investing this South African side with mystical power that they don't actually have. Sometimes in rugby, all your plans go to shit, the opposition are up for it, some of your key men have terrible starts and get worse, you don't quite get the touch of luck, and you end up on the wrong end of a dicking when it's a game you should've been competitive in. England had it in 2013 against Wales and it didn't leave the England players scarred and scared of Wales - it left them pissed off and they won the next three encounters (we'll ignore the 4th one!).

That's not to say South Africa aren't a great side or worthy world champions or that they didn't put England comfortably away. But they're also the same side that lost to New Zealand and could very easily have lost to Wales. They're not supermen - they're just a very good side - and they're suffering from this being their second test in 2 years.

Also, that South Africa A game seems largely irrelevant considering that Lions side shares all of 4 starters with the first test XV.

Puja

This. The SA team is impressive but they are not unbelievable. As you say, they nearly blew what should have been a comfortable win Inthe semi against Wales and had lost to NZ earlier on.

They'll be ferocious early on but I don't think theyl be as good as the NZ team last time out (though equally the Lions won't have the luck they had then either).

Yeah I think the first 10-15 minutes will be vital.

I really do think the whole "this is their first real game since the world cup" is over blown though. They have a relatively simple game plan and the players are mostly well versed with each other. This could be anything from 3-0 to 0-3.

I think you make your own luck sometimes. SBW was an idiot and IIRC Warburton got in the ear of the ref for the last call for the knock on/offside. The Lions on the last SA tour were victim of one of the worst reffing decisions I have seen. How Burger didn't walk for a clear eye gouge is still mystifying.

Think its less about their togetherness more about lack of test match hardness/rugby. But Saffers always turn up ready.

[Mellsblue]

They’ve a few players who have only just been allowed out of isolation after contracting Covid. If they find they’re not fully recovered and are blowing out of their arse after 15mins..... Notably, their capt and 10 are amongst that number.

[Banquo]

They’ve a few players who have only just been allowed out of isolation after contracting Covid. If they find they’re not fully recovered and are blowing out of their arse after 15mins..... Notably, their capt and 10 are amongst that number.

tru dat.

My biggest problem is that we are on a golf trip to St Andrews this weekend and need to find a pub to watch it in; and we can't sit down together. #firstworldissue

[Mellsblue]

They’ve a few players who have only just been allowed out of isolation after contracting Covid. If they find they’re not fully recovered and are blowing out of their arse after 15mins..... Notably, their capt and 10 are amongst that number.

tru dat.

My biggest problem is that we are on a golf trip to St Andrews this weekend and need to find a pub to watch it in; and we can't sit down together. #firstworldissue

I’m on a family holiday but have found a pub nearby that is showing it. I’ve absolutely no idea what said pub is like. It could be like the time I watched Eng knock the Aussies out of the 2007 RWC in an Oz bar in Dublin or I could be sat at the bar by myself trying to persuade a perplexed barmaid to join in renditions of Swing Low and Flower of Scotland.

[Sandydragon]

They’ve a few players who have only just been allowed out of isolation after contracting Covid. If they find they’re not fully recovered and are blowing out of their arse after 15mins..... Notably, their capt and 10 are amongst that number.

tru dat.

My biggest problem is that we are on a golf trip to St Andrews this weekend and need to find a pub to watch it in; and we can't sit down together. #firstworldissue

I'll be on a campsite in the Peak District relying on 4G connection. And its set to piss it down. I can think the Missus for arranging this one.

[Mellsblue]

They’ve a few players who have only just been allowed out of isolation after contracting Covid. If they find they’re not fully recovered and are blowing out of their arse after 15mins..... Notably, their capt and 10 are amongst that number.

tru dat.

My biggest problem is that we are on a golf trip to St Andrews this weekend and need to find a pub to watch it in; and we can't sit down together. #firstworldissue

I'll be on a campsite in the Peak District relying on 4G connection. And its set to piss it down. I can think the Missus for arranging this one.

This made me lol. Are you anywhere near Glossop or Matlock? I’ve played at both, many moons ago, and I’m sure they’ll accommodate. Ashbourne and Bakewell are also rugby towns. “Aargggh, Mrs SandyDragon, I’ve forgotten to pack the [insert vital piece of camping equipment you purposely left in the loft]. I’ll have to nip out and buy a new one. I’ll be back at some point after 7pm.”
I was once travelling from a long way oop north back home and realised I’d miss an England match.... so I worked out roughly where I’d be around kick off and found a local rugby club. One phone call later and I had a venue to watch the match. It added approx 45mins to the journey but it was worth it.

[Which Tyler]

How many of the Lions units have ever played together?

Could have sworn that AWJ and Itoje played really well together in NZ


ETA: Of course, it's only talking about this tour - oops

[ad_tigger]

tru dat.

My biggest problem is that we are on a golf trip to St Andrews this weekend and need to find a pub to watch it in; and we can't sit down together. #firstworldissue

I'll be on a campsite in the Peak District relying on 4G connection. And its set to piss it down. I can think the Missus for arranging this one.

This made me lol. Are you anywhere near Glossop or Matlock? I’ve played at both, many moons ago, and I’m sure they’ll accommodate. Ashbourne and Bakewell are also rugby towns. “Aargggh, Mrs SandyDragon, I’ve forgotten to pack the [insert vital piece of camping equipment you purposely left in the loft]. I’ll have to nip out and buy a new one. I’ll be back at some point after 7pm.”
I was once travelling from a long way oop north back home and realised I’d miss an England match.... so I worked out roughly where I’d be around kick off and found a local rugby club. One phone call later and I had a venue to watch the match. It added approx 45mins to the journey but it was worth it.

Likewise if you're over Sheffield way, I think Sheffield Tigers are showing it, they're right on the peak district edge of town. You might have to book a table though...

[Mellsblue]

I'll be on a campsite in the Peak District relying on 4G connection. And its set to piss it down. I can think the Missus for arranging this one.

This made me lol. Are you anywhere near Glossop or Matlock? I’ve played at both, many moons ago, and I’m sure they’ll accommodate. Ashbourne and Bakewell are also rugby towns. “Aargggh, Mrs SandyDragon, I’ve forgotten to pack the [insert vital piece of camping equipment you purposely left in the loft]. I’ll have to nip out and buy a new one. I’ll be back at some point after 7pm.”
I was once travelling from a long way oop north back home and realised I’d miss an England match.... so I worked out roughly where I’d be around kick off and found a local rugby club. One phone call later and I had a venue to watch the match. It added approx 45mins to the journey but it was worth it.

Likewise if you're over Sheffield way, I think Sheffield Tigers are showing it, they're right on the peak district edge of town. You might have to book a table though...

Funnily enough, I’m pretty certain that’s where I stopped off to watch the England match!!!

[Puja]

How many of the Lions units have ever played together?

Could have sworn that AWJ and Itoje played really well together in NZ


ETA: Of course, it's only talking about this tour - oops

Bizarre. You'd've thought the only benefit of playing and battering the weakened provinces would've been to get patterns established and build a bit of coherency, but that doesn't appear to've been high on the agenda at all.

Puja

[Banquo]

How many of the Lions units have ever played together?

Could have sworn that AWJ and Itoje played really well together in NZ


ETA: Of course, it's only talking about this tour - oops

Bizarre. You'd've thought the only benefit of playing and battering the weakened provinces would've been to get patterns established and build a bit of coherency, but that doesn't appear to've been high on the agenda at all.

Puja

Its too short a lead in to give everyone a run and get combos sorted. Though you'd think they'd know roughly what side would start the 1st test- and no-one would have predicted this starting XV, as shown by the disbelief when I first mooted it. I'm rambling here

[Mellsblue]

Could have sworn that AWJ and Itoje played really well together in NZ


ETA: Of course, it's only talking about this tour - oops

Bizarre. You'd've thought the only benefit of playing and battering the weakened provinces would've been to get patterns established and build a bit of coherency, but that doesn't appear to've been high on the agenda at all.

Puja

Its too short a lead in to give everyone a run and get combos sorted. Though you'd think they'd know roughly what side would start the 1st test- and no-one would have predicted this starting XV, as shown by the disbelief when I first mooted it. I'm rambling here

I think injuries and last minute covid enforced changes will have hobbled a few chances. I’m fairly certain the Price - Biggar combo suffered this fate. Hogg spent 10 days in a hotel whilst everyone else flew elsewhere for a couple of matches...

[Sandydragon]

How many of the Lions units have ever played together?

Could have sworn that AWJ and Itoje played really well together in NZ


ETA: Of course, it's only talking about this tour - oops

Bizarre. You'd've thought the only benefit of playing and battering the weakened provinces would've been to get patterns established and build a bit of coherency, but that doesn't appear to've been high on the agenda at all.

Puja

I can't get my head around it. Unless Gatland's idea of th test team pre -tour has been ripped up and thus some of the combinations he has tried out are no longer relevant, then its seems a waste. Surely at leat give Biggar and Price a start together, although Connor Murray seemed nailed on until the A game.

[Sandydragon]

tru dat.

My biggest problem is that we are on a golf trip to St Andrews this weekend and need to find a pub to watch it in; and we can't sit down together. #firstworldissue

I'll be on a campsite in the Peak District relying on 4G connection. And its set to piss it down. I can think the Missus for arranging this one.

This made me lol. Are you anywhere near Glossop or Matlock? I’ve played at both, many moons ago, and I’m sure they’ll accommodate. Ashbourne and Bakewell are also rugby towns. “Aargggh, Mrs SandyDragon, I’ve forgotten to pack the [insert vital piece of camping equipment you purposely left in the loft]. I’ll have to nip out and buy a new one. I’ll be back at some point after 7pm.”
I was once travelling from a long way oop north back home and realised I’d miss an England match.... so I worked out roughly where I’d be around kick off and found a local rugby club. One phone call later and I had a venue to watch the match. It added approx 45mins to the journey but it was worth it.

Ashbourne is probably the closest. We might need something urgently from the shops late afternoon that takes a few hours to collect....

[Banquo]

Could have sworn that AWJ and Itoje played really well together in NZ


ETA: Of course, it's only talking about this tour - oops

Bizarre. You'd've thought the only benefit of playing and battering the weakened provinces would've been to get patterns established and build a bit of coherency, but that doesn't appear to've been high on the agenda at all.

Puja

I can't get my head around it. Unless Gatland's idea of th test team pre -tour has been ripped up and thus some of the combinations he has tried out are no longer relevant, then its seems a waste. Surely at leat give Biggar and Price a start together, although Connor Murray seemed nailed on until the A game.

I think this is the case. Pretty sure Murray, Faletau, Faz (at 12) and Owens/George were starters in Gats mind before going, probs Mako on the bench, and AWJ has been a conundrum. Duhan had to be an outside shout as is/was Daly at 13 (though he was named as a centre). Its also possible Gats was keeping the 1st test team powder dry from an SA planning point of view, but that seems like outsmarting yourself

[Digby]

Gats has learned his lessons on the back of Clive's notion of going with the test team in mind, and Gats has learned you've got to leave the selection door open. Both have positives and negatives

[Banquo]

Gats has learned his lessons on the back of Clive's notion of going with the test team in mind, and Gats has learned you've got to leave the selection door open. Both have positives and negatives

It is Gats fourth Lions tour, so I'd think he's probably got his own thoughts by now. But possibly yes- the question is how long for....and there is little chance to throw down a marker after the first test, so that's why they've all had a chance, at the expense of settling units, it appears.

[Mellsblue]

Well, ‘work’ for me this afternoon is watching Living with Lions. I now don’t care who he’s picked as we’ll smash ‘em!

[Mikey Brown]

If anyone wants an unbelievably dry and nerdy look at the SA defence, and how the Lions could break it down, these videos are pretty good. They're very long, but that's pretty welcome if you're sat at home with Covid.

https://www.youtube. com/watch?v=sNszmf92qgA&ab_channel=WibbleRugby

[Sandydragon]

Gats has learned his lessons on the back of Clive's notion of going with the test team in mind, and Gats has learned you've got to leave the selection door open. Both have positives and negatives

I think this is where the short tour format is a bit of a nightmare. On longer tours there would have been plenty of time for the players to gel in new combinations and play themselves into contention. With a handful of games, plus limited pre-tour training time, its natural that the coach has in his mind the test 23, but he has little time to try out new combinations outside of training.

I hope the weakness of the warm up opposition is due largely to covid and for the next tour, regional teams will be full strength. If thats not the case then those games become meaningless, and we might as well hold warm up events in the UK and fly out a small touring squad with the text 23 inked in.

[Which Tyler]

I can't get my head around it. Unless Gatland's idea of th test team pre -tour has been ripped up and thus some of the combinations he has tried out are no longer relevant, then its seems a waste.

TBH, I think that's the case - or not so much ripped up, as tinkered with.
Pre-tour, did anyone expect LCD to start the tests? or was he more likely to be bench impact player?
AWJ wasn't available to pair up with Itoje
Faletau did a pretty good job of playing his way out of the starting line-up, and we're all still surprised he's gone with Lawes ahead of Beirne

Surely, everyone expected Murray and Biggar to pair up at half back, it's taken time in South Africa for Price to play his way into the team.
Taking Daly as an OC was always a risk, and may of us are still worried about his defence - I think we can be confident he wouldn't be playing there in the tests if we hadn't had the warm-us
Hogg's self-isolation meant that he missed the first couple of opportunites, and quite honestly, the back 3 slots were always wide-open

[Digby]

Gats has learned his lessons on the back of Clive's notion of going with the test team in mind, and Gats has learned you've got to leave the selection door open. Both have positives and negatives

I think this is where the short tour format is a bit of a nightmare. On longer tours there would have been plenty of time for the players to gel in new combinations and play themselves into contention. With a handful of games, plus limited pre-tour training time, its natural that the coach has in his mind the test 23, but he has little time to try out new combinations outside of training.

I hope the weakness of the warm up opposition is due largely to covid and for the next tour, regional teams will be full strength. If thats not the case then those games become meaningless, and we might as well hold warm up events in the UK and fly out a small touring squad with the text 23 inked in.

It's a huge problem for the short format, but given most warm up games are a joke a longer format wouldn't help that even if it could be negotiated and paid for.

This doesn't bother me too much as I'd like the whole jamboree binned, but I'm at least encouraged we're moving to a shorter format with less games and a much smaller squad, such they'll pretty much know the test team before travelling.

[Digby]

Gats has learned his lessons on the back of Clive's notion of going with the test team in mind, and Gats has learned you've got to leave the selection door open. Both have positives and negatives

It is Gats fourth Lions tour, so I'd think he's probably got his own thoughts by now. But possibly yes- the question is how long for....and there is little chance to throw down a marker after the first test, so that's why they've all had a chance, at the expense of settling units, it appears.

I should have said Gats probably travels with the idea the players need to think places are up for grabs, Gats needs no such delusions as long as he's not honest about it. As noted elsewhere even if you gave them more games the opposition are nearly all less than useful, substantially so