RugbyRebels

Scrumhead wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 9:34 am The Scots are shameless. I genuinely think they think ‘why put any effort in to developing our own when we can just piggy back off other unions’ efforts’.

It makes a mockery of international competition.

Not sure about that - I more wonder why England aren't tapping any likely looking players in the Celtic systems. One's think some of the posho Leinster boys have English roots.

Tricky decision for Smith - bird in the hand v the unknown in the bush.

Scrumhead wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 9:34 am The Scots are shameless. I genuinely think they think ‘why put any effort in to developing our own when we can just piggy back off other unions’ efforts’.

It makes a mockery of international competition.

They are.

We will always have this issue with players being developed here by going through our schools/academies/clubs and then opting to play for another country.

I'd be very sore if Smith chose Scotland, given he has been here all his life and owes his position entirely to the English game.

fivepointer wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 10:24 am

Scrumhead wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 9:34 am The Scots are shameless. I genuinely think they think ‘why put any effort in to developing our own when we can just piggy back off other unions’ efforts’.

It makes a mockery of international competition.

They are.

We will always have this issue with players being developed here by going through our schools/academies/clubs and then opting to play for another country.

I'd be very sore if Smith chose Scotland, given he has been here all his life and owes his position entirely to the English game.

I agree. However, if SB were to continue selecting Ford in January 2024 and Farrell (whenever he deigns to return), might Smith then be considered 4th choice for England? I'd love to hear what SB would say to him if Smith asked where he stood. The bigger long-term picture would be best served by declaring Smith and Smith as first/second choice now, IMO. If SB does not do that and F Smith opts for Scotland our team's performance ceiling will suffer - if not straight away, certainly in years 3/4 of the next RWC cycle.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 11:21 am

fivepointer wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 10:24 am

Scrumhead wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 9:34 am The Scots are shameless. I genuinely think they think ‘why put any effort in to developing our own when we can just piggy back off other unions’ efforts’.

It makes a mockery of international competition.

They are.

We will always have this issue with players being developed here by going through our schools/academies/clubs and then opting to play for another country.

I'd be very sore if Smith chose Scotland, given he has been here all his life and owes his position entirely to the English game.

I agree. However, if SB were to continue selecting Ford in January 2024 and Farrell (whenever he deigns to return), might Smith then be considered 4th choice for England? I'd love to hear what SB would say to him if Smith asked where he stood. The bigger long-term picture would be best served by declaring Smith and Smith as first/second choice now, IMO. If SB does not do that and F Smith opts for Scotland our team's performance ceiling will suffer - if not straight away, certainly in years 3/4 of the next RWC cycle.

On form Smith and Smith are first and second choice. Going to be interesting to see what Steely Balls does.

Fin Smith better turn into a top class international…

Yet strangely they are not tapping up Skinner…..

Damn you Scotland, talk to the man!

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 1:46 pm Fin Smith better turn into a top class international…

Not looking likely today.

fivepointer wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 10:24 am

Scrumhead wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 9:34 am The Scots are shameless. I genuinely think they think ‘why put any effort in to developing our own when we can just piggy back off other unions’ efforts’.

It makes a mockery of international competition.

They are.

We will always have this issue with players being developed here by going through our schools/academies/clubs and then opting to play for another country.

I'd be very sore if Smith chose Scotland, given he has been here all his life and owes his position entirely to the English game.

its why Dingwall has so far resisted Townsend

I’m hearing rumours Cokanasiga is inked in for the 12 shirt.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Sun Dec 31, 2023 11:49 am I’m hearing rumours Cokanasiga is inked in for the 12 shirt.

...trying to work out is this is a wind-up. I think it is, but the fact that I'm not 100% sure is concerning.

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Sun Dec 31, 2023 12:36 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Sun Dec 31, 2023 11:49 am I’m hearing rumours Cokanasiga is inked in for the 12 shirt.

...trying to work out is this is a wind-up. I think it is, but the fact that I'm not 100% sure is concerning.

Puja

SCW asked me to post it…

Interesting piece on Ben Bamber's second coming with Sale: https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https://www.tel ... -borthwick

Puja

Yes. Interesting to read the background.

Some bits of that I liked. Others not so much. Sure, he’s young, but I can’t help but wonder whether the ‘ignorance is bliss’ piece will hold him back? Not knowing who James Ryan suggests there could be a level of indifference there that will be a limitation unless he grows out of it.

Probably helps him as a youngster not to be overawed but you're right he'll need to nause up if he wants to make it at international level.

Not sure what Pat Lam was doing letting a 6ft8 and 20 stone second row become dissatisfied. Some man management missed at Bristol there, a club that could do with a mountain of a second row.

Going to be interesting to see how he develops.

Yeah, feels like a fair bit's being simplified for the sake of the narrative - I'm not really sure how much I buy his leaving the Bristol academy being entirely of his own volition, for example. Still, fun story and let's hope he gets to where the article writer's implying he will.

Puja

FKAS wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 1:27 pm
On form Smith and Smith are first and second choice. Going to be interesting to see what Steely Balls does.

I would go down this route, personally. There's a very reasonable chance that, come the next world cup, they'll be the two best 10s available to England. They would also justify selection on the basis of form. I think there's also a good case for using this 6Ns, in part, to develop the type of game we play, and fresh blood at 10 would help this, especially given the potential existing relationship (of Fin) with one of the leading candidates for the 9 role, and the game they play at club level.

I would pull the trigger and get them in personally.

I like Roebuck too, though it's harder to make a definitive call at this point for including him.

The other interesting one is obviously Feyi-Waboso. Looks like a talent, though I think the hype is building perhaps slightly over quickly, probably in part because of the potential tug of war. Personally I'd be surprised if he contemplated playing for England, but wing is a problem (sort of) position for us and despite feeling a little awkward about it, I wouldn't say 'no' if he chose to play for us. My suspicion is we'll see him get some game time for Wales in the coming 6Ns

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Jan 02, 2024 7:16 am Probably helps him as a youngster not to be overawed but you're right he'll need to nause up if he wants to make it at international level.

Not sure what Pat Lam was doing letting a 6ft8 and 20 stone second row become dissatisfied. Some man management missed at Bristol there, a club that could do with a mountain of a second row.

Going to be interesting to see how he develops.

There was a bit of puzzlement around his departure when he was let go, he did struggle with injuries, seemed disinterested (not knowing who James Ryan was would indicate a lack interest in the game as well).

But there have been rumours for a while about Lam's man management of players and that's in a in/out style and that once out you're pretty much done.

lol at putting on 10 kgs of muscle during pre season.

fivepointer wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 10:24 am

Scrumhead wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 9:34 am The Scots are shameless. I genuinely think they think ‘why put any effort in to developing our own when we can just piggy back off other unions’ efforts’.

It makes a mockery of international competition.

They are.

We will always have this issue with players being developed here by going through our schools/academies/clubs and then opting to play for another country.

I'd be very sore if Smith chose Scotland, given he has been here all his life and owes his position entirely to the English game.

All true. But it's understandable that any kid offered the possibility to play international rugby would jump at it. I guess we will see how it goes. Smith is a great prospect, but I feel he is a tad over hyped at this stage of his career.

Dombrant's stats always look good at club level. He's not managed to take his form to international level yet though. Hopefully he can adapt to the physicality and make the step up this 6N as it seems likely he'll get another chance.

FKAS has a point about Dombrandt looking good at lower levels while not being able to translate that form into big games, but it does appear like he's found a higher gear this season. Possible that the disappointment of missing out on the RWC might be the making of him? I'd be willing to give him another go to see if the magic can happen.

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Jan 03, 2024 6:35 pm FKAS has a point about Dombrandt looking good at lower levels while not being able to translate that form into big games, but it does appear like he's found a higher gear this season. Possible that the disappointment of missing out on the RWC might be the making of him? I'd be willing to give him another go to see if the magic can happen.

Puja

Could also be the change in coaching structure at Quins (again).

But I do feel like he needed time to adjust to England. Borthwick didn't have that time, so he ditched him. That's fair (if he doesn't go and pick Billy in his place), but now he could come back - there is time.

Bit worrying about our looseheads for the 6N. Marler likely out, Genge touch and go, Rodd definitely out, VRR injured till the back end of the season (quelle surprise), Vunipola banned right up until the start of the tournament. Could be Obano and Brantingham (not necessarily in that order) for the Italy game.

Puja

I posted almost the exact same on another forum …

I hope it’s a good chance for Obano. But for his injuries, I think he’d have been an established member of the squad by now.

Beyond that, we have Baxter and Brantingham coming through or do we go with guys that could probably do a job for a couple of games like Tom West or Si McIntyre?

Marler and Genge might only miss the first couple of rounds and scheduling might be doing us a favour there (Italy, Wales, break week).