Jones does shave a point. We're not producing enough good players and the elite game here isnt doing enough to develop what we do produce. But like any coach, Jones has to work with what he's got. Fact is he failed dismally post 2019 WC.
Remember, it’s never Eddie’s fault. Not that I think he’s necessarily wrong.
Eddie passed the buck
Unfortunately, Borthwick dropped it
Re: RWC Training Squad
Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2023 1:16 pm
by Oakboy
fivepointer wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 1:07 pm
Jones does shave a point. We're not producing enough good players and the elite game here isnt doing enough to develop what we do produce. But like any coach, Jones has to work with what he's got. Fact is he failed dismally post 2019 WC.
Quite. As the guy in charge, he has rarely, if ever, created an environment where all coaches and players performed to the best of their ability. What it amounted to with England is that some players may have been rejected wrongly. We'll never know.
Remember, it’s never Eddie’s fault. Not that I think he’s necessarily wrong.
Eddie passed the buck
Unfortunately, Borthwick dropped it
At least he's modelling behaviours for his team.
Puja
Re: RWC Training Squad
Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2023 2:54 pm
by p/d
fivepointer wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 1:07 pm
Jones does shave a point. We're not producing enough good players and the elite game here isnt doing enough to develop what we do produce. But like any coach, Jones has to work with what he's got. Fact is he failed dismally post 2019 WC.
Don’t think it is as clean cut as that
Re: RWC Training Squad
Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2023 4:22 pm
by morepork
Ed-dee has gone full Karen over the last few weeks.
Re: RWC Training Squad
Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2023 5:13 pm
by Spiffy
morepork wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 4:22 pm
Ed-dee has gone full Karen over the last few weeks.
fivepointer wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 1:07 pm
Jones does shave a point. We're not producing enough good players and the elite game here isnt doing enough to develop what we do produce. But like any coach, Jones has to work with what he's got. Fact is he failed dismally post 2019 WC.
Don’t think it is as clean cut as that
No but the defunding of the Championship and the death of the A league mean that there's no obvious stepping stone from the academy to the first team. The fall in the financial stability of the game means the salary cap has to stay lower so the quality of squads in the Championship is lower. More EQ youngsters are getting game time but it's because they are cheaper than foreign players and unfortunately it's at a lower standard.
Of course it's not the sole reason but you've only got to ask if you were picking a Lions Team now how many English players would you pick?
fivepointer wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 1:07 pm
Jones does shave a point. We're not producing enough good players and the elite game here isnt doing enough to develop what we do produce. But like any coach, Jones has to work with what he's got. Fact is he failed dismally post 2019 WC.
Don’t think it is as clean cut as that
No but the defunding of the Championship and the death of the A league mean that there's no obvious stepping stone from the academy to the first team. The fall in the financial stability of the game means the salary cap has to stay lower so the quality of squads in the Championship is lower. More EQ youngsters are getting game time but it's because they are cheaper than foreign players and unfortunately it's at a lower standard.
Of course it's not the sole reason but you've only got to ask if you were picking a Lions Team now how many English players would you pick?
Would the Lions HC pick Farrell? That still remains the twist in any logic we may offer about the state of the game.
fivepointer wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 1:07 pm
Jones does shave a point. We're not producing enough good players and the elite game here isnt doing enough to develop what we do produce. But like any coach, Jones has to work with what he's got. Fact is he failed dismally post 2019 WC.
Don’t think it is as clean cut as that
No but the defunding of the Championship and the death of the A league mean that there's no obvious stepping stone from the academy to the first team. The fall in the financial stability of the game means the salary cap has to stay lower so the quality of squads in the Championship is lower. More EQ youngsters are getting game time but it's because they are cheaper than foreign players and unfortunately it's at a lower standard.
Of course it's not the sole reason but you've only got to ask if you were picking a Lions Team now how many English players would you pick?
Agree FKAS, though my post was simply a lame attempt at 5p use of the word ‘shave’
No but the defunding of the Championship and the death of the A league mean that there's no obvious stepping stone from the academy to the first team. The fall in the financial stability of the game means the salary cap has to stay lower so the quality of squads in the Championship is lower. More EQ youngsters are getting game time but it's because they are cheaper than foreign players and unfortunately it's at a lower standard.
Of course it's not the sole reason but you've only got to ask if you were picking a Lions Team now how many English players would you pick?
Would the Lions HC pick Farrell? That still remains the twist in any logic we may offer about the state of the game.
Yeah if for reason Gatland gets another sodding chance at producing a mediocre Lions tour then Farrell would have a half decent chance at making the XV. For a man who likes physicality first and foremost in his flyhalf it makes sense
Itoje if he could refind his form and maybe George or LCD though Irish options would probably be the go to. It's clutching at straws though.
No but the defunding of the Championship and the death of the A league mean that there's no obvious stepping stone from the academy to the first team. The fall in the financial stability of the game means the salary cap has to stay lower so the quality of squads in the Championship is lower. More EQ youngsters are getting game time but it's because they are cheaper than foreign players and unfortunately it's at a lower standard.
Of course it's not the sole reason but you've only got to ask if you were picking a Lions Team now how many English players would you pick?
Would the Lions HC pick Farrell? That still remains the twist in any logic we may offer about the state of the game.
Yeah if for reason Gatland gets another sodding chance at producing a mediocre Lions tour then Farrell would have a half decent chance at making the XV. For a man who likes physicality first and foremost in his flyhalf it makes sense
Itoje if he could refind his form and maybe George or LCD though Irish options would probably be the go to. It's clutching at straws though.
Physicality? Or playing like he had one arm (until it's time to flap arms), moaning and pissing off the ref?
He has a certain type when it comes to the 10 to be sure.
Re: RWC Training Squad
Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2023 11:31 am
by Banquo
Gloskarlos wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 12:29 pm
He is right about the RFU being a broken process though.
....its the PRL/RFU combo that is the real disaster tbh.
Re: RWC Training Squad
Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2023 11:35 am
by Banquo
fivepointer wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 1:07 pm
Jones does shave a point. We're not producing enough good players and the elite game here isnt doing enough to develop what we do produce. But like any coach, Jones has to work with what he's got. Fact is he failed dismally post 2019 WC.
Its the same drum I've been beating for 20 years ish.
He wasn't great post 2019 tis true. His dismal failure looks rosy next to Borthwick though .
fivepointer wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 1:07 pm
Jones does shave a point. We're not producing enough good players and the elite game here isnt doing enough to develop what we do produce. But like any coach, Jones has to work with what he's got. Fact is he failed dismally post 2019 WC.
Quite. As the guy in charge, he has rarely, if ever, created an environment where all coaches and players performed to the best of their ability. What it amounted to with England is that some players may have been rejected wrongly. We'll never know.
That's just not true. He has created it often in most of his jobs- his problem has been sustaining it- probably because he's an attritional aggressive leader. Lesson is- only hire him (or most head coaches frankly) for no more than 3 maybe 4 years and get a succession plan in place (which he actually committed to doing for himself and then reneged on).
fivepointer wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 1:07 pm
Jones does shave a point. We're not producing enough good players and the elite game here isnt doing enough to develop what we do produce. But like any coach, Jones has to work with what he's got. Fact is he failed dismally post 2019 WC.
Don’t think it is as clean cut as that
No but the defunding of the Championship and the death of the A league mean that there's no obvious stepping stone from the academy to the first team. The fall in the financial stability of the game means the salary cap has to stay lower so the quality of squads in the Championship is lower. More EQ youngsters are getting game time but it's because they are cheaper than foreign players and unfortunately it's at a lower standard.
Of course it's not the sole reason but you've only got to ask if you were picking a Lions Team now how many English players would you pick?
I think it is pretty clear we don't produce enough quality players consistently. Funding is part of the reason, though why a pro game that effectively broke away from the RFU should expect funding is an interesting question; the champ funding situation is bad I agree (but why should clubs expect cash is a devils advocate view- though RFU should share whatever broadcasting and sponsorship money raised).
Your point about foreign players is interesting- it implies that we cannot develop players of a sufficient standard to be ready to slot into pro teams; which kind of is the point; had clubs not been so short termist (variety of reasons), they'd have invested in proper pathways/academies instead of shoring up their teams with overseas and aging players. Not pointing any fingers tbh, but that's what's happened. Now money is squeezed, we are seeing a reversal of that to some extent, but it'll be a while before the benefits in standards are seen.
Re: RWC Training Squad
Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2023 11:52 am
by Banquo
Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 5:51 pm
Rugby Analyst - 'So why are England so rubbish?'
All this has been staring us in the face- its obvious many of the players just aren't good enough, and that we have gone back when other nations have progressed towards RWC. Not sure why its not sinking in tbh (and exactly on Malins and indeed Smith, obvious)
Re: RWC Training Squad
Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2023 11:59 am
by 16th man
It's not a great sign that I'm feeling slightly relieved to not be watching us play this weekend is it?
Re: RWC Training Squad
Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2023 12:21 pm
by Insouciant
I'm kinda looking forward to Slithery Bilge-pump picking the team for the Argentina game as I'm not that sure who he's going to pick. Neither am I sure how we are going to play, other than badly. I don't fancy our chances v Samoa atm.
Re: RWC Training Squad
Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2023 12:44 pm
by p/d
I assume team selection will go along the lines of:
1. Test match animal - those who played in the 2017 WC
2. Non 2017 squad members - Tigers & Sarries
3. Toss coin - fill the gaps
4. Still not sure why - Malins
No but the defunding of the Championship and the death of the A league mean that there's no obvious stepping stone from the academy to the first team. The fall in the financial stability of the game means the salary cap has to stay lower so the quality of squads in the Championship is lower. More EQ youngsters are getting game time but it's because they are cheaper than foreign players and unfortunately it's at a lower standard.
Of course it's not the sole reason but you've only got to ask if you were picking a Lions Team now how many English players would you pick?
I think it is pretty clear we don't produce enough quality players consistently. Funding is part of the reason, though why a pro game that effectively broke away from the RFU should expect funding is an interesting question; the champ funding situation is bad I agree (but why should clubs expect cash is a devils advocate view- though RFU should share whatever broadcasting and sponsorship money raised).
Your point about foreign players is interesting- it implies that we cannot develop players of a sufficient standard to be ready to slot into pro teams; which kind of is the point; had clubs not been so short termist (variety of reasons), they'd have invested in proper pathways/academies instead of shoring up their teams with overseas and aging players. Not pointing any fingers tbh, but that's what's happened. Now money is squeezed, we are seeing a reversal of that to some extent, but it'll be a while before the benefits in standards are seen.
The Premiership opted to breakaway and I've not suggested they should get more funding just stating the fact that young talent coming through behind a journeyman player and not an international doesn't create the same level of competition. It's good to see the clubs pushing resources into the academy systems but the players coming out of the pathway won't become instantly brilliant just because they are playing more. Looking at Leinster and the top teams in France should be the example to follow.
That being said not supporting the Championship was an act of self harm by the RFU. They haven't split away. No A league tournament with an emphasis on players under 23 is baffling. I'm fairly sure they could have found some low paying sponsors to splash their names across the lower competitions if the RFU promised to put all highlights on their YouTube feed with said sponsors name on it. The RFU need a development pathway to feed their cash cow.
No but the defunding of the Championship and the death of the A league mean that there's no obvious stepping stone from the academy to the first team. The fall in the financial stability of the game means the salary cap has to stay lower so the quality of squads in the Championship is lower. More EQ youngsters are getting game time but it's because they are cheaper than foreign players and unfortunately it's at a lower standard.
Of course it's not the sole reason but you've only got to ask if you were picking a Lions Team now how many English players would you pick?
I think it is pretty clear we don't produce enough quality players consistently. Funding is part of the reason, though why a pro game that effectively broke away from the RFU should expect funding is an interesting question; the champ funding situation is bad I agree (but why should clubs expect cash is a devils advocate view- though RFU should share whatever broadcasting and sponsorship money raised).
Your point about foreign players is interesting- it implies that we cannot develop players of a sufficient standard to be ready to slot into pro teams; which kind of is the point; had clubs not been so short termist (variety of reasons), they'd have invested in proper pathways/academies instead of shoring up their teams with overseas and aging players. Not pointing any fingers tbh, but that's what's happened. Now money is squeezed, we are seeing a reversal of that to some extent, but it'll be a while before the benefits in standards are seen.
The Premiership opted to breakaway and I've not suggested they should get more funding just stating the fact that young talent coming through behind a journeyman player and not an international doesn't create the same level of competition. It's good to see the clubs pushing resources into the academy systems but the players coming out of the pathway won't become instantly brilliant just because they are playing more. Looking at Leinster and the top teams in France should be the example to follow.
That being said not supporting the Championship was an act of self harm by the RFU. They haven't split away. No A league tournament with an emphasis on players under 23 is baffling. I'm fairly sure they could have found some low paying sponsors to splash their names across the lower competitions if the RFU promised to put all highlights on their YouTube feed with said sponsors name on it. The RFU need a development pathway to feed their cash cow.
Pretty much as I said, so agree- Champ allowed now to find own sponsor deals. Its a shame how long it took for pro teams to wake up to developing their own, if explainable.
I think it is pretty clear we don't produce enough quality players consistently. Funding is part of the reason, though why a pro game that effectively broke away from the RFU should expect funding is an interesting question; the champ funding situation is bad I agree (but why should clubs expect cash is a devils advocate view- though RFU should share whatever broadcasting and sponsorship money raised).
Your point about foreign players is interesting- it implies that we cannot develop players of a sufficient standard to be ready to slot into pro teams; which kind of is the point; had clubs not been so short termist (variety of reasons), they'd have invested in proper pathways/academies instead of shoring up their teams with overseas and aging players. Not pointing any fingers tbh, but that's what's happened. Now money is squeezed, we are seeing a reversal of that to some extent, but it'll be a while before the benefits in standards are seen.
The Premiership opted to breakaway and I've not suggested they should get more funding just stating the fact that young talent coming through behind a journeyman player and not an international doesn't create the same level of competition. It's good to see the clubs pushing resources into the academy systems but the players coming out of the pathway won't become instantly brilliant just because they are playing more. Looking at Leinster and the top teams in France should be the example to follow.
That being said not supporting the Championship was an act of self harm by the RFU. They haven't split away. No A league tournament with an emphasis on players under 23 is baffling. I'm fairly sure they could have found some low paying sponsors to splash their names across the lower competitions if the RFU promised to put all highlights on their YouTube feed with said sponsors name on it. The RFU need a development pathway to feed their cash cow.
Pretty much as I said, so agree- Champ allowed now to find own sponsor deals. Its a shame how long it took for pro teams to wake up to developing their own, if explainable.
The arrogance of assuming the financial dominance would always be there and the incompetence in the RFU when it came to growing the game.
That still remains the twist in any logic we may offer about the state of the game.
.