RugbyRebels

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2024 5:34 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Dec 12, 2024 2:55 pm

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Thu Dec 12, 2024 2:50 pm
Your memory of pre-Thatcher times is a bit shaky.

Your memory of prog is self-evidently fucked.

Nah mate, the mid to late 60's were ok because of the Beatles; 70-79 was absolutely sh8t- the country was disintegrating even more rapidly than 65-70, all progressive ideas were scuppered by the trade unions and by three godawful governments, we had to borrow a load of money from the IMF, oil prices sky rocketed, NI 'Troubles'......but more especially, England had a lot of good rugby players but no idea what to do with them. Prog Rock is shit, with the exception of King Crimson possibly. The Clash were great though at the other end of the spectrum. I quite enjoyed the 70's in fairness, apart from 74/75 when my father died, having been effectively forced to leave the country by Healey's tax regime; came back in 75, discovered booze and fags etc so all ok for me, whilst the country around was dying, then punk, then winter of discontent which lead to Thatch. Then I was at university so happy days

How old were you in 1978 btw?

Yes.

Oh dear.
(though in fairness, TFTO was a low point which colours my pov )

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2024 6:28 pm

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2024 5:34 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Dec 12, 2024 2:55 pm
Nah mate, the mid to late 60's were ok because of the Beatles; 70-79 was absolutely sh8t- the country was disintegrating even more rapidly than 65-70, all progressive ideas were scuppered by the trade unions and by three godawful governments, we had to borrow a load of money from the IMF, oil prices sky rocketed, NI 'Troubles'......but more especially, England had a lot of good rugby players but no idea what to do with them. Prog Rock is shit, with the exception of King Crimson possibly. The Clash were great though at the other end of the spectrum. I quite enjoyed the 70's in fairness, apart from 74/75 when my father died, having been effectively forced to leave the country by Healey's tax regime; came back in 75, discovered booze and fags etc so all ok for me, whilst the country around was dying, then punk, then winter of discontent which lead to Thatch. Then I was at university so happy days

How old were you in 1978 btw?

Yes.

Oh dear.
(though in fairness, TFTO was a low point which colours my pov )

TFTO is massively disappointing (considering its ultra-prog ambitions). I haven't listened to it for years. Going for the One and Tormato are the best albums IMO. There's some brilliant stuff on Relayer, Close to the Edge and Fragile but you have to find it amongst the not so brilliant stuff. Anyway, Gabriel-era Genesis is peak prog, better than Yes.

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2024 7:40 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2024 6:28 pm

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2024 5:34 pm
Yes.

Oh dear.
(though in fairness, TFTO was a low point which colours my pov )

TFTO is massively disappointing (considering its ultra-prog ambitions). I haven't listened to it for years. Going for the One and Tormato are the best albums IMO. There's some brilliant stuff on Relayer, Close to the Edge and Fragile but you have to find it amongst the not so brilliant stuff. Anyway, Gabriel-era Genesis is peak prog, better than Yes.

agreed!!

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2024 9:46 pm

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2024 7:40 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2024 6:28 pm

Oh dear.
(though in fairness, TFTO was a low point which colours my pov )

TFTO is massively disappointing (considering its ultra-prog ambitions). I haven't listened to it for years. Going for the One and Tormato are the best albums IMO. There's some brilliant stuff on Relayer, Close to the Edge and Fragile but you have to find it amongst the not so brilliant stuff. Anyway, Gabriel-era Genesis is peak prog, better than Yes.

agreed!!

Agreement across the political divide! Only prog can do this .

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2024 9:51 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2024 9:46 pm

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2024 7:40 pm
TFTO is massively disappointing (considering its ultra-prog ambitions). I haven't listened to it for years. Going for the One and Tormato are the best albums IMO. There's some brilliant stuff on Relayer, Close to the Edge and Fragile but you have to find it amongst the not so brilliant stuff. Anyway, Gabriel-era Genesis is peak prog, better than Yes.

agreed!!

Agreement across the political divide! Only prog can do this .

I'll be honest, I'm a little surprised it took this long for the "mask" to slip
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... on-jumping

Reform UK's leader, Nigel Farage, and another of the party's MPs, Rupert Lowe, demanded that a new inquiry focus specifically on men of Pakistani origin targeting white girls, not on other ethnicities.


"This is not a bandwagon of the far right. This is about ensuring swift and brutal justice to these demons," Lowe said. He spelled out a list of demands for an inquiry to answer, referring to them as "foreign rapists".

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Sat Oct 26, 2024 3:58 pm And clearly the markets are pretty calm about it. Sure yields went up - there would have to be a knee-jerk reaction upwards to this announcement - but +0.06% is just a murmur.

Whoops.

Badenoch speaks approvingly of mobs burning down people's homes:

“There are some places where, when people behave in that way, a mob turns up and burns their homes down, and then they know that they can’t do that sort of thing,” the Conservative leader told GB News.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... s-badenoch

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2025 1:02 pm Badenoch speaks approvingly of mobs burning down people's homes:

“There are some places where, when people behave in that way, a mob turns up and burns their homes down, and then they know that they can’t do that sort of thing,” the Conservative leader told GB News.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... s-badenoch

And describing the perpetrators as "peasants" from "sub-communities". Not quite confident enough in herself to refer to Pakistani men as uncivilised barbarians out loud yet, but certainly getting more comfortable with ever less subtle euphemisms.

This is your scheduled reminder that, despite what Elon and Kemi would like people to worry about, Pakistani-ethnicity men are statistically less likely to be involved in sexual assaults or child abuse than white men are, based on the percentages of the UK population. It is also your reminder that taking a subset of child abuse rings that contain only people of a certain skin colour, rebranding them as a new thing called "grooming gangs", and making sure that gets a lot of publicity is a) very deliberately constructed propaganda and b) deeply, deeply racist.

Puja

I’m loathe to get involved in this as rational debate went out of the window years ago, but the statistics are useless for a handful or reasons, both quality and quantity, so no point drawing anything from them. Even if you’re a titan of the internet, eg own X or moderate RR.

Edit: Smiley added to convey the tone of my post.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2025 3:03 pm I’m loathe to get involved in this as rational debate went out of the window years ago, but the statistics are useless for a handful or reasons, both quality and quantity, so no point drawing anything from them. Even if you’re a titan of the internet, eg own X or moderate RR.

Edit: Smiley added to convey the tone of my post.

The police often don’t record ethnicity properly, so you’re quite right to be cautious. It is absolutely racist to describe all men of Pakistani heritage as being rapists. It’s also wrong to focus on only those grooming gangs where the majority were from ethnic minorities.

It is also wrong to ignore a problem, which is sadly what happened in many towns and cities. If local authorities had addressed the problem properly instead of trying t9 ignore it, the issue would carry the weight it does today. Regardless of the attackers ethnicity, the state completely failed to protect hundred if not thousands of young girls from abuse, despite plenty of reports. That’s not acceptable.

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2025 7:39 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2025 3:03 pm I’m loathe to get involved in this as rational debate went out of the window years ago, but the statistics are useless for a handful or reasons, both quality and quantity, so no point drawing anything from them. Even if you’re a titan of the internet, eg own X or moderate RR.

Edit: Smiley added to convey the tone of my post.

The police often don’t record ethnicity properly, so you’re quite right to be cautious. It is absolutely racist to describe all men of Pakistani heritage as being rapists. It’s also wrong to focus on only those grooming gangs where the majority were from ethnic minorities.

It is also wrong to ignore a problem, which is sadly what happened in many towns and cities. If local authorities had addressed the problem properly instead of trying t9 ignore it, the issue would carry the weight it does today. Regardless of the attackers ethnicity, the state completely failed to protect hundred if not thousands of young girls from abuse, despite plenty of reports. That’s not acceptable.

Coming in strong there with the controversial opinion of "The police and justice system's ineptitude at catching and punishing paedophiles is bad and I don't care who knows it!"

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2025 8:33 pm

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2025 7:39 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2025 3:03 pm I’m loathe to get involved in this as rational debate went out of the window years ago, but the statistics are useless for a handful or reasons, both quality and quantity, so no point drawing anything from them. Even if you’re a titan of the internet, eg own X or moderate RR.

Edit: Smiley added to convey the tone of my post.

The police often don’t record ethnicity properly, so you’re quite right to be cautious. It is absolutely racist to describe all men of Pakistani heritage as being rapists. It’s also wrong to focus on only those grooming gangs where the majority were from ethnic minorities.

It is also wrong to ignore a problem, which is sadly what happened in many towns and cities. If local authorities had addressed the problem properly instead of trying t9 ignore it, the issue would carry the weight it does today. Regardless of the attackers ethnicity, the state completely failed to protect hundred if not thousands of young girls from abuse, despite plenty of reports. That’s not acceptable.

Coming in strong there with the controversial opinion of "The police and justice system's ineptitude at catching and punishing paedophiles is bad and I don't care who knows it!"

Puja

The failure was wider than just the police. As the inquiry has already demonstrated. And the concern at upsetting a minority group was one of the reasons why that failure occurred. Again, as per the finding of that original inquiry.

As per my previous post, the anger surrounding this would not be there as much to be exploited if the police and other agencies had done their job without fear or favour.

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2025 8:41 am

Puja wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2025 8:33 pm

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2025 7:39 pm

The police often don’t record ethnicity properly, so you’re quite right to be cautious. It is absolutely racist to describe all men of Pakistani heritage as being rapists. It’s also wrong to focus on only those grooming gangs where the majority were from ethnic minorities.

It is also wrong to ignore a problem, which is sadly what happened in many towns and cities. If local authorities had addressed the problem properly instead of trying t9 ignore it, the issue would carry the weight it does today. Regardless of the attackers ethnicity, the state completely failed to protect hundred if not thousands of young girls from abuse, despite plenty of reports. That’s not acceptable.

Coming in strong there with the controversial opinion of "The police and justice system's ineptitude at catching and punishing paedophiles is bad and I don't care who knows it!"

Puja

The failure was wider than just the police. As the inquiry has already demonstrated. And the concern at upsetting a minority group was one of the reasons why that failure occurred. Again, as per the finding of that original inquiry.

As per my previous post, the anger surrounding this would not be there as much to be exploited if the police and other agencies had done their job without fear or favour.

All of which happened under who's watch?

Stom wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2025 8:54 am

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2025 8:41 am

Puja wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2025 8:33 pm

Coming in strong there with the controversial opinion of "The police and justice system's ineptitude at catching and punishing paedophiles is bad and I don't care who knows it!"

Puja

The failure was wider than just the police. As the inquiry has already demonstrated. And the concern at upsetting a minority group was one of the reasons why that failure occurred. Again, as per the finding of that original inquiry.

As per my previous post, the anger surrounding this would not be there as much to be exploited if the police and other agencies had done their job without fear or favour.

All of which happened under who's watch?

a) I’m fairly certain you’ve missed Sandy’s point.
b) Predominantly Labour run councils.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2025 9:15 am

Stom wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2025 8:54 am

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2025 8:41 am
The failure was wider than just the police. As the inquiry has already demonstrated. And the concern at upsetting a minority group was one of the reasons why that failure occurred. Again, as per the finding of that original inquiry.

As per my previous post, the anger surrounding this would not be there as much to be exploited if the police and other agencies had done their job without fear or favour.

All of which happened under who's watch?

a) I’m fairly certain you’ve missed Sandy’s point.
b) Predominantly Labour run councils.

I did. Or rather, I chose to "ignore it" in order to get back to the original point about the stupidity of Kemi Bad-at-this ranting about this issue when she was in charge for part of it...

On b), I think pretty much all councils are crap in the UK, no matter who runs them, and local politics needs a root and branch reform. But then again, so does parliament...

Drain the swamp.

Stom wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2025 8:54 am

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2025 8:41 am

Puja wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2025 8:33 pm

Coming in strong there with the controversial opinion of "The police and justice system's ineptitude at catching and punishing paedophiles is bad and I don't care who knows it!"

Puja

The failure was wider than just the police. As the inquiry has already demonstrated. And the concern at upsetting a minority group was one of the reasons why that failure occurred. Again, as per the finding of that original inquiry.

As per my previous post, the anger surrounding this would not be there as much to be exploited if the police and other agencies had done their job without fear or favour.

All of which happened under who's watch?

The local councils were Labour run.

Stom wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2025 9:39 am

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2025 9:15 am

Stom wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2025 8:54 am

All of which happened under who's watch?

a) I’m fairly certain you’ve missed Sandy’s point.
b) Predominantly Labour run councils.

I did. Or rather, I chose to "ignore it" in order to get back to the original point about the stupidity of Kemi Bad-at-this ranting about this issue when she was in charge for part of it...

On b), I think pretty much all councils are crap in the UK, no matter who runs them, and local politics needs a root and branch reform. But then again, so does parliament...

I’d agree with you that the conservatives ranting about the need for a new inquiry after they set up the last one is pathetic.

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2025 8:41 am

Puja wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2025 8:33 pm

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2025 7:39 pm

The police often don’t record ethnicity properly, so you’re quite right to be cautious. It is absolutely racist to describe all men of Pakistani heritage as being rapists. It’s also wrong to focus on only those grooming gangs where the majority were from ethnic minorities.

It is also wrong to ignore a problem, which is sadly what happened in many towns and cities. If local authorities had addressed the problem properly instead of trying t9 ignore it, the issue would carry the weight it does today. Regardless of the attackers ethnicity, the state completely failed to protect hundred if not thousands of young girls from abuse, despite plenty of reports. That’s not acceptable.

Coming in strong there with the controversial opinion of "The police and justice system's ineptitude at catching and punishing paedophiles is bad and I don't care who knows it!"

Puja

The failure was wider than just the police. As the inquiry has already demonstrated. And the concern at upsetting a minority group was one of the reasons why that failure occurred. Again, as per the finding of that original inquiry.

As per my previous post, the anger surrounding this would not be there as much to be exploited if the police and other agencies had done their job without fear or favour.

Again, I don't think, "The police/powers that be should've done better and should've worked without fear or favour," is a controversial opinion that will find too many detractors.

The issue under discussion was the fact that this famous set of utter failures of policing due to skin colour has been repackaged for propaganda as "Asian grooming gangs" to imply that the majority of child abuse rings are within one ethnicity, simply because this famously mishandled set were, and that therefore this is a problem of culture/race, rather than a problem of awful monsters who appear to go across most statistical groups.

The skin colour was relevant to the police's failure and important to make sure that it can't happen again, but that is a separate issue to it being used as propaganda by those in need of outrage.

And it does need to stay separate because conflating them is the heart of the propaganda - Yaxley-Lennon et al deliberately framing things so that it sounds like speaking against the racism is speaking for child abuse and vice-versa

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2025 10:04 am

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2025 8:41 am

Puja wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2025 8:33 pm

Coming in strong there with the controversial opinion of "The police and justice system's ineptitude at catching and punishing paedophiles is bad and I don't care who knows it!"

Puja

The failure was wider than just the police. As the inquiry has already demonstrated. And the concern at upsetting a minority group was one of the reasons why that failure occurred. Again, as per the finding of that original inquiry.

As per my previous post, the anger surrounding this would not be there as much to be exploited if the police and other agencies had done their job without fear or favour.

failures of policing
police's failure
Puja

Policing and social services and senior council officers and councillors.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2025 10:37 am

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2025 10:04 am

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2025 8:41 am
The failure was wider than just the police. As the inquiry has already demonstrated. And the concern at upsetting a minority group was one of the reasons why that failure occurred. Again, as per the finding of that original inquiry.

As per my previous post, the anger surrounding this would not be there as much to be exploited if the police and other agencies had done their job without fear or favour.

failures of policing
police's failure
Puja

Policing and social services and senior council officers and councillors.

Yes, apologies - very correct that the fuck-up went far beyond the police. Was using it as shorthand for "the justice and protection system in general" but it wasn't a clear or accurate shorthand and doesn't cover the political bit either. Good correction.

Puja

Kemi Badenoch criticises labour for... agreeing with Kemi Badenoch
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... ommunities

(Playground) Politics, innit.
Labour are about to bring in planning laws they voted against in opposition. Starmer is suddenly in favour of another runway at Heathrow after previously being against it.
The list is endless for any party that is or has been in power.

Fair point, well made.

Ridiculous from all of them