RugbyRebels

Which Tyler wrote:Quite honestly, I would be perfectly happy with both James brothers taking apprentice positions in the squad

Not really sure Sam is apprentice age...

Fair, he's older than I thought, and I thought I'd be pushing "apprentice" at 3 years younger

Jones picking Barbeary wouldn't be that unconventional, by his standards

I've had a horrible thought that won't go away. It would be entirely on brand for Eddie's occasionally maddening selection to pick Ben White ahead of Mitchell. It'd be absolutely mental, but it feels like a thing that he might do - pick a player with some ineffable quality of leadership instead of a player with actual skills and form in his position.

Puja

Peej wrote:Jones picking Barbeary wouldn't be that unconventional, by his standards

Certainly a good chance of getting in as an apprentice anyway.

Stom wrote:Like Which, I'd go for a larger squad and generally agree with his selections.

Mako, Marler, Genge, Obano
George, LCD, Dunn
Sinckler, Stuart, someone
Itoje, Launch, Lawes, JHill, Ewels
TCurry, BCurry, Willis, Underhill, THill, Billy, Earl
Youngs, Spencer, Mitchell
Ford, Farrell, Smith
Tuilagi, Slade, JJ, Devoto
Watson, Daly, May, Coka, Thorley, McConnochie

That's 38.

I still agree with this group, but it's now noticeable how many interesting players are being left out. The depth and quality feels better than it has for a long while

Scrumhead wrote:

Peej wrote:Jones picking Barbeary wouldn't be that unconventional, by his standards

Certainly a good chance of getting in as an apprentice anyway.

Yeah sorry - this is what I meant

I only pasted the first bit of the article because the rest relies on photos.





There was a glint in Eddie Jones’ eye last month as he was asked whether any half-backs had impressed him since the Premiership resumption. The England head coach did not need a second’s thought.

Immediately, he heralded the “absolutely outstanding” and “brilliant” first-half performance of Ben Youngs in Leicester Tigers’ 13-7 win over London Irish. Jones offered no more suggestions of in-form scrum-halves.

Youngs celebrated his 250th appearance for Leicester on Sunday. Having just turned 31, he enjoyed a good 2020 Six Nations and would seem certain to win a 100th cap under Jones.

But the familiar issue of who will be his deputy for England remains. Willi Heinz has not played for Gloucester since January. And, although younger men such as Alex Mitchell and Harry Randall have been earmarked as potential internationals, two familiar faces keep impressing.



Ben Spencer and Dan Robson are both 28. They have six Test appearances between them, all of which have come from the bench. However, in guiding their respective clubs into the play-off places, they must be edging closer to putting that right.

Robson is a scampering runner who thrives in fractured, fast-paced exchanges. In that respect, he should thrive if referees keep up their focus on quick ball at breakdowns.

Wasps’ mobile, scavenging back-rowers help bring out Robson’s best by manufacturing plenty of transition situations. This dummy and spin, which set up Jacob Umaga’s try during the 27-23 win over Bath at The Rec on August 31, epitomises his awareness and opportunism:

I think Robson in particular can feel hard done by

To be fair, when Eddie eventually did pick Robson, he gave him some game time and it seemed like he’d finally taken an interest. Robson’s blood clot issue put paid to that not Eddie and then Heinz took the spot and did well enough to keep it.

I agree he can feel hard done by, but not all of it is Eddie being obtuse.

The biggest surprise to me was that spencer was 28. I had him in the "up and coming" category in my head.

twitchy wrote:The biggest surprise to me was that spencer was 28. I had him in the "up and coming" category in my head.

He's been in that category for almost 10 years, ffs!

twitchy wrote:The biggest surprise to me was that spencer was 28. I had him in the "up and coming" category in my head.

Same thing with Jamie George I find, seemed like the plan was to play apprentice for a couple of seasons to Smit/Brits or De Kock/Wigglesworth but it turned in to quite a few more than that.

Mikey Brown wrote:

twitchy wrote:The biggest surprise to me was that spencer was 28. I had him in the "up and coming" category in my head.

Same thing with Jamie George I find, seemed like the plan was to play apprentice for a couple of seasons to Smit/Brits or De Kock/Wigglesworth but it turned in to quite a few more than that.

Yep. Was one of the hugely suspicious things for me. They had extremely talented players, in some cases England internationals, still seemingly content to play as 2nd choice.

Mikey Brown wrote:

twitchy wrote:The biggest surprise to me was that spencer was 28. I had him in the "up and coming" category in my head.

Same thing with Jamie George I find, seemed like the plan was to play apprentice for a couple of seasons to Smit/Brits or De Kock/Wigglesworth but it turned in to quite a few more than that.

Yeah, but there is a difference between a hooker having his real breakthrough at 25 and a SH having his at 26...

And, tbh, I think it's because Spencer isn't actually that great. Though he is showing at Bath that he's better than he showed for Saracens.

Maybe other players might see the way he performs and take note. Would be nice.

Stom wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:

twitchy wrote:The biggest surprise to me was that spencer was 28. I had him in the "up and coming" category in my head.

Same thing with Jamie George I find, seemed like the plan was to play apprentice for a couple of seasons to Smit/Brits or De Kock/Wigglesworth but it turned in to quite a few more than that.

Yeah, but there is a difference between a hooker having his real breakthrough at 25 and a SH having his at 26...

And, tbh, I think it's because Spencer isn't actually that great. Though he is showing at Bath that he's better than he showed for Saracens.

Maybe other players might see the way he performs and take note. Would be nice.

This has hit the nail on the head. He occasionally has great games and is not Ben Youngs. However, neither of those things make him actual international quality.

Puja

Maybe if he'd got more gametime he may have got a bit more consistency. Robson left glaws at 23 with quite a few holding a similar opinion of him.

My real gripe about Robson was that he was ignored when he was in great form for Wasps. He was easily the best SH in England and got absolutely no recognition.
He's has 2 games off the bench for England in the 2019 6N's. About 30 minutes in total.
He's deserved a lot more of a go than that.
Spencer has similarly been treated quite poorly. 4 games, all off the bench. I would have played him in the 6N's and would unhesitatingly pick him now.

Raggs wrote:Maybe if he'd got more gametime he may have got a bit more consistency. Robson left glaws at 23 with quite a few holding a similar opinion of him.

To be fair to Saracens, every time they looked like making him first choice, he had a run of games of varying form and then had one where he shat the bed. So they went back to Wigglesworth because they wanted to win.

Frankly, if a scrum-half cannot push past a 53 year old Richard Wigglesworth, then he is not international quality.

On a better note, Alex Mitchell looked mustard yesterday in front of Eddie Jones. Had a nice moment where he caught Youngs at the back of a scrum and generally provided a running threat, top box-kicking, and fast, accurate service. Youngs actually looked pretty good as well, albeit more wily than livewire.

Puja

Spencer was 1st choice for Sarries for at least his last season there, and possibly his last 2 seasons.

I don’t know whether he should have left earlier or just being in the Sarries environment for all those years has made him the player he is, or if he’s simply a late developer. I do know that he’s pretty comfortably international class though, insofar as he’s at least as good and probably better than a hell of a lot of regular tier 1 international 9’s.

Which t1 nations would have Spencer starting? That seems a strong claim to make.

Timbo wrote:I do know that he’s pretty comfortably international class though, insofar as he’s at least as good and probably better than a hell of a lot of regular tier 1 international 9’s.

You and I have *very* different assessments of his quality. I'd only really have him ahead of Calum Braley in terms of regular T1 9s, with an argument to be made around Nic White (that I wouldn't agree with). Who would you have him ahead of from De Klerk, Smith, Dupont, Cooney, Price, Davies, Nagare, and Cubelli?

Puja

I tend to agree, although I wouldn’t put Youngs ahead of most of those either!

I’d put Spencer ahead of Ali Price I think. Had Price not decided he was Scottish, I’m not sure we’d be clamouring for his inclusion in the England squad. He’d be a contender, but is no better than Spencer or Robson IMO.

I’m also not sure about Nagare. There is no doubt he is excellent at a very specific game plan, but I’d question whether he would look the same in another side?

Scrumhead wrote:I tend to agree, although I wouldn’t put Youngs ahead of most of those either!

I’d put Spencer ahead of Ali Price I think. Had Price not decided he was Scottish, I’m not sure we’d be clamouring for his inclusion in the England squad. He’d be a contender, but is no better than Spencer or Robson IMO.

I’m also not sure about Nagare. There is no doubt he is excellent at a very specific game plan, but I’d question whether he would look the same in another side?

But Price has actually shown himself very capable at international level, even if he has many flaws. You can’t say Spencer has done anything even close to that, regardless of whether he’s been afforded a fair opportunity.

This seems to happen quite frequently where a player somehow proves their international qualities in the premiership, then it doesn’t actually materialise for England.

We certainly have to take a proper look at somebody though. Whatever your thoughts on Youngs and Heinz they are both in their 30s.

Price has 32 caps. He's started 18 games.

Spencer has 4 caps and hasnt started a game. Last capped in the WC final when he managed to get on for the last 5 minutes.

Now if Spencer had played, say, 10 games starting in at least 3 or 4 and not proved up to it, then fair enough, lets move on to someone else.
But he really hasnt been given any reasonable opportunity to make a case for long term inclusion.