The Premiership opted to breakaway and I've not suggested they should get more funding just stating the fact that young talent coming through behind a journeyman player and not an international doesn't create the same level of competition. It's good to see the clubs pushing resources into the academy systems but the players coming out of the pathway won't become instantly brilliant just because they are playing more. Looking at Leinster and the top teams in France should be the example to follow.
That being said not supporting the Championship was an act of self harm by the RFU. They haven't split away. No A league tournament with an emphasis on players under 23 is baffling. I'm fairly sure they could have found some low paying sponsors to splash their names across the lower competitions if the RFU promised to put all highlights on their YouTube feed with said sponsors name on it. The RFU need a development pathway to feed their cash cow.
Pretty much as I said, so agree- Champ allowed now to find own sponsor deals. Its a shame how long it took for pro teams to wake up to developing their own, if explainable.
The arrogance of assuming the financial dominance would always be there and the incompetence in the RFU when it came to growing the game.
Yes. RFU has actually done a good job growing the women's game- male participation drop across all sports is a huge issue.....but the RFU have certainly not helped, and definitely have take their eye off the ball between 16 and (say) 20. The big big big issue is lack of alignment to the RFU/Cash cow vehicle from top down.
Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 5:51 pm
Rugby Analyst - 'So why are England so rubbish?'
All this has been staring us in the face- its obvious many of the players just aren't good enough, and that we have gone back when other nations have progressed towards RWC. Not sure why its not sinking in tbh (and exactly on Malins and indeed Smith, obvious)
Watched another Youtube thing with Tindall, Dallaglio and Haskell. Whilst they are not the brains trust I was interested to hear the view concerning senior players standing up to be counted - both in terms of affecting the game during the 80 and in press-relations after defeat. Maybe current senior players lack the character and rugby intelligence to ignore coaching messages when the game situation demands it. Also, the current back-room edict stopping players fronting up to the press post-match is self-defeating (especially when SB is so bad at it).
It's hard not to wonder, if they are right, how much experience counts for in the current England set-up.
Re: RWC Training Squad
Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2023 4:07 pm
by Mellsblue
There’s a piece in today’s Times by the chief sports correspondent, previously chief rugby correspondent, about how Farrell is ‘a coach’s capt… rather than a players’ captain’ who will slavishly follow instructions and doesn’t have the personality to challenge the coaches pre or post game or the rugby nous to challenge their tactics during a game.
The certainly of the wording was such that it makes me think that he isn’t just surmising from the outside looking in…
Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 5:51 pm
Rugby Analyst - 'So why are England so rubbish?'
All this has been staring us in the face- its obvious many of the players just aren't good enough, and that we have gone back when other nations have progressed towards RWC. Not sure why its not sinking in tbh (and exactly on Malins and indeed Smith, obvious)
While I fully accept we are rubbish right now, I really don’t agree with this assertion that England are ‘firmly a Tier 2 nation’.
Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 5:51 pm
Rugby Analyst - 'So why are England so rubbish?'
All this has been staring us in the face- its obvious many of the players just aren't good enough, and that we have gone back when other nations have progressed towards RWC. Not sure why its not sinking in tbh (and exactly on Malins and indeed Smith, obvious)
While I fully accept we are rubbish right now, I really don’t agree with this assertion that England are ‘firmly a Tier 2 nation’.
World rankings and recent results kinda back it up. Its maybe a bit of hyperbole, but the rest of the chat is pretty much spot on.
Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 5:51 pm
Rugby Analyst - 'So why are England so rubbish?'
All this has been staring us in the face- its obvious many of the players just aren't good enough, and that we have gone back when other nations have progressed towards RWC. Not sure why its not sinking in tbh (and exactly on Malins and indeed Smith, obvious)
Watched another Youtube thing with Tindall, Dallaglio and Haskell. Whilst they are not the brains trust I was interested to hear the view concerning senior players standing up to be counted - both in terms of affecting the game during the 80 and in press-relations after defeat. Maybe current senior players lack the character and rugby intelligence to ignore coaching messages when the game situation demands it. Also, the current back-room edict stopping players fronting up to the press post-match is self-defeating (especially when SB is so bad at it).
It's hard not to wonder, if they are right, how much experience counts for in the current England set-up.
2 players there who left everything out on the pitch. The other rode on the back of their graft and then spent too much time in front of the mirror and camera to truly fulfil his potential. The success of 2003 pushed rugby into the spotlight and created minor celebrities, none more so than The Brand.
All this has been staring us in the face- its obvious many of the players just aren't good enough, and that we have gone back when other nations have progressed towards RWC. Not sure why its not sinking in tbh (and exactly on Malins and indeed Smith, obvious)
Watched another Youtube thing with Tindall, Dallaglio and Haskell. Whilst they are not the brains trust I was interested to hear the view concerning senior players standing up to be counted - both in terms of affecting the game during the 80 and in press-relations after defeat. Maybe current senior players lack the character and rugby intelligence to ignore coaching messages when the game situation demands it. Also, the current back-room edict stopping players fronting up to the press post-match is self-defeating (especially when SB is so bad at it).
It's hard not to wonder, if they are right, how much experience counts for in the current England set-up.
2 players there who left everything out on the pitch. The other rode on the back of their graft and then spent too much time in front of the mirror and camera to truly fulfil his potential. The success of 2003 pushed rugby into the spotlight and created minor celebrities, none more so than The Brand.
Dayglo might have been great on the pitch but off the pitch he's a real berk and seems to have no real understanding of the sport. He's stolen a living as a commentator complaining about everything other than his favourites. Pissed his money away (partly in brothels according to news reports) so we're likely to see him more now as he pimps himself about trying to secure his finances and actually pay some tax.
Couldn't bare to watch GBR with him on, Haskell freely admits he doesn't watch many of the games so there's unlikely to be much meaningful insight.
All this has been staring us in the face- its obvious many of the players just aren't good enough, and that we have gone back when other nations have progressed towards RWC. Not sure why its not sinking in tbh (and exactly on Malins and indeed Smith, obvious)
While I fully accept we are rubbish right now, I really don’t agree with this assertion that England are ‘firmly a Tier 2 nation’.
World rankings and recent results kinda back it up. Its maybe a bit of hyperbole, but the rest of the chat is pretty much spot on.
Kinda how? Losing once to a Tier 2 team doesn’t mean we’re ‘firmly Tier 2’ ourselves.
If losing to Georgia (who are not as good as Fiji) didn’t relegate Wales to Tier 2, how come we’re suddenly in that category?
We only really play Tier 1. Yes, we’re mostly losing, but the majority of those games have been against the top 4/5 sides. I’m simply not convinced we’re at the same level as Georgia etc.
Re: RWC Training Squad
Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2023 9:30 pm
by p/d
Is it not simply that we are a Tier 1 side that has arrived at a point where a win is greeted with much relief. If we were a Tier 2 side then a similar victory would be cause for celebration
Re: RWC Training Squad
Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2023 9:39 pm
by Mellsblue
The only team we can beat is Wales… we are tier 2.
Re: RWC Training Squad
Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2023 9:58 pm
by Epaminondas Pules
England received their World Cup caps tonight, apart from Lawes who was too sore to attend after yesterdays training apparently.
While I fully accept we are rubbish right now, I really don’t agree with this assertion that England are ‘firmly a Tier 2 nation’.
World rankings and recent results kinda back it up. Its maybe a bit of hyperbole, but the rest of the chat is pretty much spot on.
Kinda how? Losing once to a Tier 2 team doesn’t mean we’re ‘firmly Tier 2’ ourselves.
If losing to Georgia (who are not as good as Fiji) didn’t relegate Wales to Tier 2, how come we’re suddenly in that category?
We only really play Tier 1. Yes, we’re mostly losing, but the majority of those games have been against the top 4/5 sides. I’m simply not convinced we’re at the same level as Georgia etc.
yet we are 8th in the world- we`ve lost to Fiji and wales in the last month, and surely losing to tier 1 and 2 teams meas summat- and I did actually say it was bit of hyperbole. Semantics...but we are pants. Also I am a bald man fighting over a comb.
Re: RWC Training Squad
Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2023 10:25 pm
by Mikey Brown
Discussing what qualifies as a tier is almost as fun as talking about what “world class” really means.
Re: RWC Training Squad
Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2023 10:28 pm
by Banquo
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sat Sep 02, 2023 10:25 pm
Discussing what qualifies as a tier is almost as fun as talking about what “world class” really means.
nah
Re: RWC Training Squad
Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2023 10:34 pm
by p/d
Mellsblue wrote: ↑Sat Sep 02, 2023 9:39 pm
The only team we can beat is Wales… we are tier 2.
When you put it like that …….
Re: RWC Training Squad
Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2023 12:04 am
by Mellsblue
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sat Sep 02, 2023 10:25 pm
Discussing what qualifies as a tier is almost as fun as talking about what “world class” really means.
Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Sep 03, 2023 10:36 am
We’ve fallen into old trap of not quite being a 1 or a 2. A 1.5
Trying to take that to its logical conclusion, should we pick Farrell at 11?
Yeah cause what we need is a slower back three though reshuffling the backline to accommodate Farrell is entirely within the standard England tactics and has been for a good decade at this point.
Re: RWC Training Squad
Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2023 2:49 pm
by Mikey Brown
We’ve reached the heights of Newcastle in 2006.
Re: RWC Training Squad
Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2023 9:21 am
by Oakboy
Here is a reminder of the 33 names in the squad. Based on the warm-ups who was a good, bad, indifferent selection?
Forwards
Ollie Chessum (Leicester Tigers, 9 caps)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 100 caps)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 45 caps)
Theo Dan (Saracens, 1 cap)
Ben Earl (Saracens, 15 caps)
Ellis Genge (Bristol Bears, 49 caps)
Jamie George (Saracens, 77 caps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens, 67 caps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 97 caps)
Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, 20 caps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 79 caps)
George Martin (Leicester Tigers, 2 caps)
David Ribbans (Toulon, 6 caps)
Bevan Rodd (Sale Sharks, 3 caps)
Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 62 caps)
Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 26 caps)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 68 caps)
Jack Walker (Harlequins, 3 caps)
Jack Willis (Toulouse, 10 caps)
Backs
Henry Arundell (Racing 92, 7 caps)
Danny Care (Harlequins, 88 caps)
Elliot Daly (Saracens, 57 caps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens, 106 caps)
George Ford (Sale Sharks, 82 caps)
Ollie Lawrence (Bath Rugby, 11 caps)
Max Malins (Bristol Bears, 19 caps)
Joe Marchant (Stade Francais, 16 caps)
Jonny May (Gloucester, 72 caps)
Alex Mitchell (Northampton Saints, 6 caps)
Marcus Smith (Harlequins, 22 caps)
Freddie Steward (Leicester Tigers, 23 caps)
Manu Tuilagi (Sale Sharks, 51 caps)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 122 caps)
Good:
Chessum
Earl
Genge
George
Itoje
Lawes
Willis
Ford
Lawrence
Marchant
Mitchell
Smith
Bad:
Vunipola
Care
Daly
Farrell
Tuilagi
Youngs
Indifferent (for whatever reason):
Cole
Curry
Dan
Ludlam
Marler
Martin
Ribbans
Rodd
Sinckler
Stuart
Walker
Arundell
Malins
May
Steward
Now, we can debate the three lists for ever. My point in raising this is Dallaglio's contention (yes, I know he's a crap pundit etc.) that players need to own their own performances.
To what extent have good, bad, indifferent performances reflected the individuals' efforts and to what extent has the management simply not provided a platform?
Obviously, Farrell and Vunipola have ballsed-up significantly. Youngs and Care have just confirmed their limitations, arguably.
Beyond that, though, who passed/failed based on their own efforts and who just did not get the chance to justify their selection (even when picked)?
In terms of judging our players can any single one claim to have been picked in their correct position, in a team set-up that suits their game and to have performed to the absolute top level of their ability? I can't name one.
