Argentina tour

[FKAS]

It's a bit harsh but I am worried about potentially fielding Murley Vs the Pumas. He was exposed badly Vs Ireland under the high ball and in a game that could get attritional he's not great at competing on the kick chase. Boring bits of wing player I appreciate but areas that you need to be solid at, at international level.

Hopefully he's working on those areas in camp.

Radwan has been working on those bits, still a bit of work to do. OHC has seen substantial improvements in those areas. If OHC can just train that big left boot of his to be vaguely accurate he'd be competing with Freeman for England's most complete winger.

[Oakboy]

Wow, poked the hornet's nest!

SB's first choice back three is presumably IFW, Freeman and Furbank.

We simply offer opinion based on what we have seen. Mine, based on past performances for England, is that both Sleightholme and Murley have flaws. I don't believe that either will threaten for a place in the first choice 23. Both might make reasonably effective international wings against most opposition but I don't think either can ever be a top-drawer player capable of being outstanding against the top sides.

If I was choosing, I'd prefer to develop others who, in MY opinion, have the potential to reach a higher level.

I firmly believe that we are on the verge of becoming a great side. We have more quality choice in most positions than at any time I can remember. It will be dependent on SB's judgement (obviously). It will also depend on his courage to back his own judgement with potential (especially young potential). So far, with the likes of Pollock and Bracken, he is on the righf track.

Where things may become contentious is when he leaves out good players for potentially better ones. That remains the hardest part of managing professional sport but it is what top winners have to do.

[Scrumhead]

Sure, but I think the confusion comes from comparing players based upon different standards.

You’ve said that you think Murley and Sleightholme have flaws. That’s fine, but these are players who have done consistently well at the highest level of European rugby and have only really been exposed by top test sides.

So far, PBB has looked good in the Premiership/Cup in a poor Exeter side. He’s shown pace and athleticism but the widely agreed view is that he is ‘raw’ and doesn’t seem to have a particularly strong feel for the game. That’s understandable given his route to where he is today. However, I’m sure it’s not just me who can’t quite get why you’re arriving at your conclusions based upon the actual evidence.

What exactly have you seen that makes you so adamant he has the potential to threaten the top sides?

From what I see, he’s got some great natural attributes, but needs a lot of polishing to get to the levels you’re talking about. Maybe coaching will get him there, maybe not.

Take Cokanasiga as a case study - he has great physical attributes and had the potential to be special but never really developed the rugby intelligence to make the most of his gifts. Maybe PBB will, but there are plenty of examples to show that physical potential alone doesn’t cut it.

[Mikey Brown]

It's a bit harsh but I am worried about potentially fielding Murley Vs the Pumas. He was exposed badly Vs Ireland under the high ball and in a game that could get attritional he's not great at competing on the kick chase. Boring bits of wing player I appreciate but areas that you need to be solid at, at international level.

Hopefully he's working on those areas in camp.

Radwan has been working on those bits, still a bit of work to do. OHC has seen substantial improvements in those areas. If OHC can just train that big left boot of his to be vaguely accurate he'd be competing with Freeman for England's most complete winger.

Apologies if this is a conversation we’ve already done, I have a feeling it is, but how many times was Murley ‘exposed’ vs Ireland? The initial missed high ball was bad, no question, and then thinking he’d already crossed the line and trying to run the ball out was a big mistake, but was there more?

Similar to Radwan I’ve seen a lot of focus from him over the last season on being an effective kick chaser. He’s got fantastic pace and timing for it, but obviously doesn’t get in the air the same way a Steward/Freeman/OHC can.

If we were short of options I’d happily say let’s throw him in vs Argentina and find out, but I suppose I can see why Borthwick wouldn’t. He clearly saw something worth trying vs Ireland, but Murley’s injury means we don’t know if he’d have persisted with it.

I know you’re not saying OHC is simply a strong kicking game away from matching Freeman, but that assessment still feels a little strong. He’s in the same boat as Murley currently. 1 game with little ball and not showing the required nous.

The PBB and Cokanasiga comparison is a good one. Certainly got a huge amount of potential, but let’s see him develop his game and deal with being targeted the same way everyone else has to. Maybe if we were still fielding Malins and Nowell I’d be saying completely the opposite though.

[Oakboy]

Sure, but I think the confusion comes from comparing players based upon different standards.

You’ve said that you think Murley and Sleightholme have flaws. That’s fine, but these are players who have done consistently well at the highest level of European rugby and have only really been exposed by top test sides.

So far, PBB has looked good in the Premiership/Cup in a poor Exeter side. He’s shown pace and athleticism but the widely agreed view is that he is ‘raw’ and doesn’t seem to have a particularly strong feel for the game. That’s understandable given his route to where he is today. However, I’m sure it’s not just me who can’t quite get why you’re arriving at your conclusions based upon the actual evidence.

What exactly have you seen that makes you so adamant he has the potential to threaten the top sides?

From what I see, he’s got some great natural attributes, but needs a lot of polishing to get to the levels you’re talking about. Maybe coaching will get him there, maybe not.

Take Cokanasiga as a case study - he has great physical attributes and had the potential to be special but never really developed the rugby intelligence to make the most of his gifts. Maybe PBB will, but there are plenty of examples to show that physical potential alone doesn’t cut it.

I like all that. Coka has to be the biggest disappointment of the last few years. PBB is raw, I agree. He either makes it or he does not. Picking a team for tomorrow or 12 months time, he obviously does not get near it. What this tour does is give measurement of potential in an international environment with little to lose apart from world ranking points.

Let's face it, not everyone can get a sustained chance. The example that I return to is Dombrandt who had dozens(?) of opportunities ahead of Tom Willis. Based on his skill-set, Dombrandt was judged, reasonably, to be our No 8 for the future. Now, though, does anybody still think that?

I think that Sleightholme and Murley are good players and handy to have around should 3 or 4 injuries lead to their services being required. I don't think either will threaten IFW, Freeman (should he be retained on the wing) or Roebuck. OHC, Radwan and PBB don't today but they might tomorrow or next year, IMO. I'd rather give them the game time to prove it (or not). That's all I am saying.

[Oakboy]

Arundell called up. Where is he in the ranking?

[FKAS]

It's a bit harsh but I am worried about potentially fielding Murley Vs the Pumas. He was exposed badly Vs Ireland under the high ball and in a game that could get attritional he's not great at competing on the kick chase. Boring bits of wing player I appreciate but areas that you need to be solid at, at international level.

Hopefully he's working on those areas in camp.

Radwan has been working on those bits, still a bit of work to do. OHC has seen substantial improvements in those areas. If OHC can just train that big left boot of his to be vaguely accurate he'd be competing with Freeman for England's most complete winger.

Apologies if this is a conversation we’ve already done, I have a feeling it is, but how many times was Murley ‘exposed’ vs Ireland? The initial missed high ball was bad, no question, and then thinking he’d already crossed the line and trying to run the ball out was a big mistake, but was there more?

Similar to Radwan I’ve seen a lot of focus from him over the last season on being an effective kick chaser. He’s got fantastic pace and timing for it, but obviously doesn’t get in the air the same way a Steward/Freeman/OHC can.

If we were short of options I’d happily say let’s throw him in vs Argentina and find out, but I suppose I can see why Borthwick wouldn’t. He clearly saw something worth trying vs Ireland, but Murley’s injury means we don’t know if he’d have persisted with it.

I know you’re not saying OHC is simply a strong kicking game away from matching Freeman, but that assessment still feels a little strong. He’s in the same boat as Murley currently. 1 game with little ball and not showing the required nous.

The PBB and Cokanasiga comparison is a good one. Certainly got a huge amount of potential, but let’s see him develop his game and deal with being targeted the same way everyone else has to.

Yeah, that's the other thing with OHC isn't it, he's looking to have the all round skills in the Prem. Whether he can translate them to the international scene will be the question. Different player now to when he got capped.

I thought it was three mistakes in the backfield for Murley Vs Ireland. After the first his confidence at the back seemed to completely disappear which is the greater worry.

[Mikey Brown]

Really depends if he is still viewed as a fullback options I suppose. As a pure wing I don’t get the impression his form puts him in the top 5 or 6 options.

I don’t quite follow the Dombrandt-Sleightholme-Murley comparison. Dombrandt was finally given a proper run under Borthwick, enough to see it wasn’t working. Willis was looked at in camp several times and there was clearly something making Borthwick more reluctant to test him out than any of us would be. Hopefully he gets a run this summer as first choice 8 without having to accommodate Earl.

Sleightholme has 5 starts and 3 bench appearances, against some of the best teams in the world and has managed to look great in attack at times. He’s struggled in defence, amidst ever changing defensive systems, and rightfully fallen behind Roebuck I’d say. I don’t see how that’s enough to write off his potential, particularly given his incredible athletic abilities.

Ditto Murley but he’s only had 1 game, but been top 2-3 EQP wings for 4 or 5 years now. I could easily see a world where it was Murley given that chance that IFW had and offering something similar. The question for these guys is more temperament than talent I think.

[Mikey Brown]

I thought it was three mistakes in the backfield for Murley Vs Ireland. After the first his confidence at the back seemed to completely disappear which is the greater worry.

Well there were compounding mistakes in there, but 2 ‘incidents’ I thought. Valid concern either way, but I thought the second was more a moment of panic in an exit situation than struggling under the high ball.

I (totally biased) just want to believe his finishing and counter-attacking threat can find a place with England, but there will be no room for compromises with all these options.

[FKAS]

I thought it was three mistakes in the backfield for Murley Vs Ireland. After the first his confidence at the back seemed to completely disappear which is the greater worry.

Well there were compounding mistakes in there, but 2 ‘incidents’ I thought. Valid concern either way, but I thought the second was more a moment of panic in an exit situation than struggling under the high ball.

I (totally biased) just want to believe his finishing and counter-attacking threat can find a place with England, but there will be no room for compromises with all these options.

I didn't have a problem with him keeping his place post Ireland game which obviously didn't come to pass with his injury. I'd be delighted if he proved me wrong, as a rapid winger is always worth having in the squad and he comes across well in interviews and other areas of the game.

Possibly doesn't help I was at Welford Road for Quins awful aerial display a few weeks back. All the contestable kicks went down the other wing to Murley, to the extent it was clearly part of the game plan and Tigers targeted him in the air with OHC (and his height advantage) regathering ball repeatedly. If he's selected for the Pumas game they will almost certainly target him. Whether England can use Steward to defuse those kicks and then try to supply the ball for Murley to counter attack not sure but that could be one way to deal with it.

[Danno]

It's a bit harsh but I am worried about potentially fielding Murley Vs the Pumas. He was exposed badly Vs Ireland under the high ball and in a game that could get attritional he's not great at competing on the kick chase. Boring bits of wing player I appreciate but areas that you need to be solid at, at international level.

Hopefully he's working on those areas in camp.

Radwan has been working on those bits, still a bit of work to do. OHC has seen substantial improvements in those areas. If OHC can just train that big left boot of his to be vaguely accurate he'd be competing with Freeman for England's most complete winger.

Maybe if we were still fielding Malins and Nowell I’d be saying completely the opposite though.

God, those were dark days

[Which Tyler]

Arundell called up. Where is he in the ranking?

Gods alone know!
I think I put him in with PBB as being a raw physical freak who can do things that no-one else can, but still learning to play rugby. The similarity above to Cokanasiga is apt, as would be young Johnny May. Despite being a year younger than PBB, HA has proven not to suffer second season syndrome, and has proven that he doesn't look flustered on an international pitch, had 4 years of playing experience and the growth that comes with losing your job and moving countries.
Whilst I think that Arundell is over-rated by many, he's certainly got the potential to get there.

Id say our winger pecking order would be
Freeman & IFW - starters, comfortable at international level, been around long enough to show they're not just a flash in the pan
Sleightholme & Arundell - may becomes starters, but not there yet. Jury is out on Sleightholme's international pedigree after 8 matches, but he's done enough to earn the right to continue being tested.
Radwan, OHC, Murley & Roebuck - All have good strong points, but weaker weak points than the first 4 (well, Murley more even across the skils, but without the same heights). I'm not worried by any of them as back-up, but I'm not convinced any will challenge the 2 starters. First 2 especially are old enough that I'd have expected to happen already if it was going to.
PBB & Ibitoye - break glass in case of emergency. As above, PBB can jump up a category or two simply by side-stepping SSS. Ibitoye is slippery as an eel; but I don't think that his game would be effective at international level - both in defence and attack (especially SB's version of both). He's also the oldest (?) of all the names mentioned.
Cokanasiga - Honourable mention - If he continues to show the improvements he has this season, and if he can fight off the challenge of Arundell at club level - then he could easily fight his way back into contention. Same age as the oldest above, but more experienced, and more physically gifted than his classmates

[Banquo]

Wow, poked the hornet's nest!

SB's first choice back three is presumably IFW, Freeman and Furbank.

We simply offer opinion based on what we have seen. Mine, based on past performances for England, is that both Sleightholme and Murley have flaws. I don't believe that either will threaten for a place in the first choice 23. Both might make reasonably effective international wings against most opposition but I don't think either can ever be a top-drawer player capable of being outstanding against the top sides.

If I was choosing, I'd prefer to develop others who, in MY opinion, have the potential to reach a higher level.

I firmly believe that we are on the verge of becoming a great side. We have more quality choice in most positions than at any time I can remember. It will be dependent on SB's judgement (obviously). It will also depend on his courage to back his own judgement with potential (especially young potential). So far, with the likes of Pollock and Bracken, he is on the righf track.

Where things may become contentious is when he leaves out good players for potentially better ones. That remains the hardest part of managing professional sport but it is what top winners have to do.

Trouble is, you tend to alight on the latest shiny thing you see, without the time to see if they also have flaws. It’s more than possible IFW has flaws for example- and indeed when our defence was pants in the autumn, he, like Sleightholme looked exposed iirc

[Which Tyler]

Trouble is, you tend to alight on the latest shiny thing you see, without the time to see if they also have flaws. It’s more than possible IFW has flaws for example- and indeed when our defence was pants in the autumn, he, like Sleightholme looked exposed iirc

When it's all about a player's ceiling, then they're only worth a look BEFORE they've proven anything.
Every player looks invincible until their first mistake

[Puja]

Arundell called up. Where is he in the ranking?

Hands up if you'd completely forgotten his existence while we were having this discussion about wings?

I'm not averse to Stoic Backselector having a good look at him - he's clearly a ridiculous talent and it's worthwhile to have him back in camp and see where he's at. His ranking I guess will depend on what he can show in training (and also whether he's considered a 15 option).

ETA. A quick google tells me he played his first game for Racing since January last weekend and scored two tries. I'm assuming he's been injured, but can't find any record of it - entirely possible Racing froze him out once it was clear he was leaving and picked him for this last game just to prevent him from having an early release to England?

Puja

[fivepointer]

He wasnt on my radar.

Think its fair to say the move to France didnt go that well, but he remains a serious talent and one that i'm very happy to see brought back into the England fold.

[Banquo]

Trouble is, you tend to alight on the latest shiny thing you see, without the time to see if they also have flaws. It’s more than possible IFW has flaws for example- and indeed when our defence was pants in the autumn, he, like Sleightholme looked exposed iirc

When it's all about a player's ceiling, then they're only worth a look BEFORE they've proven anything.
Every player looks invincible until their first mistake

Eh? Bit Tyson-esque

[Banquo]

He wasnt on my radar.

Think its fair to say the move to France didnt go that well, but he remains a serious talent and one that i'm very happy to see brought back into the England fold.

….didnt go so well for Lancaster or Faz junior. Funny that. Also, who has watched Racing matches including Arundell and can give an informed view? Not me tbh so no idea if he did ok or otherwise there, in a team that’s been mainly otherwise.

Also in fairness, should anybody be criticising his career move to Racing, he was jobless at the time I think and offered a big wedge despite his yoof and experience. It’s a short career even if you are lucky enough to be talented and uninjured.

[Which Tyler]

As far as I'm aware he never really got up much form in France (though he still scored plenty) and was dropped early this year when Lorenzetti was getting pissed off with him, Farrell and Lancaster Snr.
I believe he had another year on his contract there too, but no transfer fee was requested.
I've only watched 4-5 Racing matches, the rest comes from family over there (who don't support Racing)

I don't blame him at all for moving to France - must have been a fantastic opportunity. But I don't think that Racing was ever the right location - I think they signed him under the impression that he was the finished article, and we're a bit shocked that he wasn't.
That said, I did think that Burt would be a good coach for him, as developing individuals really is his strong suit.
Hopefully, he'll develop better at Bath, with JvG and Blackett, no expectations of immediate stardom, and the likes of Muir, Carreras, and even Coka to learn from (if he can pass on what he's learnt about trying to be more than just a freak of nature)

[Banquo]

As far as I'm aware he never really got up much form in France (though he still scored plenty) and was dropped early this year when Lorenzetti was getting pissed off with him, Farrell and Lancaster Snr.
I believe he had another year on his contract there too, but no transfer fee was requested.
I've only watched 4-5 Racing matches, the rest comes from family over there (who don't support Racing)

I don't blame him at all for moving to France - must have been a fantastic opportunity. But I don't think that Racing was ever the right location - I think they signed him under the impression that he was the finished article, and we're a bit shocked that he wasn't.
That said, I did think that Burt would be a good coach for him, as developing individuals really is his strong suit.
Hopefully, he'll develop better at Bath, with JvG and Blackett, no expectations of immediate stardom, and the likes of Muir, Carreras, and even Coka to learn from (if he can pass on what he's learnt about trying to be more than just a freak of nature)

I just think talk of him not doing well there doesn’t take into account the team he was playing in, tbh. But again based on pretty much no actual evidence. So be great to actual see what he can do, esp in a decent side. Ceilings, nothing more than ceilings…

(Why do you think Racing thought him the finished article btw?. They signed him on a one year deal originally; then extended it to three iirc)

[Mikey Brown]

I thought it was three mistakes in the backfield for Murley Vs Ireland. After the first his confidence at the back seemed to completely disappear which is the greater worry.

Well there were compounding mistakes in there, but 2 ‘incidents’ I thought. Valid concern either way, but I thought the second was more a moment of panic in an exit situation than struggling under the high ball.

I (totally biased) just want to believe his finishing and counter-attacking threat can find a place with England, but there will be no room for compromises with all these options.

I didn't have a problem with him keeping his place post Ireland game which obviously didn't come to pass with his injury. I'd be delighted if he proved me wrong, as a rapid winger is always worth having in the squad and he comes across well in interviews and other areas of the game.

Possibly doesn't help I was at Welford Road for Quins awful aerial display a few weeks back. All the contestable kicks went down the other wing to Murley, to the extent it was clearly part of the game plan and Tigers targeted him in the air with OHC (and his height advantage) regathering ball repeatedly. If he's selected for the Pumas game they will almost certainly target him. Whether England can use Steward to defuse those kicks and then try to supply the ball for Murley to counter attack not sure but that could be one way to deal with it.

Was that the 40-odd to 7 drubbing? I looked for the highlights and saw the full game was up, so I just watched it. Austin Healey and Ben Kay commentating on a Leicester game. Jesus wept.

I didn't see any of what you described above, so possibly wasn't even the right game. I can't beleive I just put myself through that.

[Danno]

Condolences Mikey. They're unbearable once they get their 'bants' going

[TheDasher]

Arundell mainly played 15 on the way up right? The majority of his highlights reel videos on Youtube are with him at 15 I think. He scored that cracker vs Toulon and the cracker against Australia from the wing (not sure about the Toulon one actually, was he 14 or 15 that day?). Bearing in mind the strength in depth on the wings currently, I might look at him as a full-back; I think the counter-attacking/kick return element would be extremely exciting as would him joining the line in attack in the oppo 22. He won't be Steward under the high ball and probably won't kick like Mike Brown but I'd give it a go...

[Scrumhead]

Yeah - this is kind of where my heads at.

For the France XV game, Carpenter was the only specialist 15 named in the initial squad. It would make more sense to me if Arundell is being looked at as a fullback rather than as a winger.

[Puja]

Arundell mainly played 15 on the way up right? The majority of his highlights reel videos on Youtube are with him at 15 I think. He scored that cracker vs Toulon and the cracker against Australia from the wing (not sure about the Toulon one actually, was he 14 or 15 that day?). Bearing in mind the strength in depth on the wings currently, I might look at him as a full-back; I think the counter-attacking/kick return element would be extremely exciting as would him joining the line in attack in the oppo 22. He won't be Steward under the high ball and probably won't kick like Mike Brown but I'd give it a go...

I'd be very much in favour, although it would be pivoting to a different kind of full-back, as he's not a "second 10" like Furbank or MSmith. It's possible that Beatboxer now sees Dingwall at being capable at 12 as the second playmaker if the 10 gets buried, which would allow a running full-back, but I am concerned that we're going to see Slade at centre again.

Bit of a kick in the teeth for Steward if we do pivot back to having a running 15, given he's worked so hard on developing his playmaking and standing in at 10 for Leicester. Not that it's not good for his overall development to've worked on that (especially improving his hands under pressure, which were godsawful before), but he'd be entitled to be a bit annoyed with the requirements for selection changing so rapidly.

Puja