RugbyRebels

I'm not sure if that's aimed at me or not. Seems pretty clear everyone agrees he hasn't had much of a chance with England. None of that changes his current status from 'unproven' though.

Scrumhead wrote:I’d put Spencer ahead of Ali Price I think. Had Price not decided he was Scottish, I’m not sure we’d be clamouring for his inclusion in the England squad. He’d be a contender, but is no better than Spencer or Robson IMO.

You kidding me? If Price was English and turning in the performances in the Prem that he does for Glasgow, we would absolutely be clamouring for his inclusion in the England squad - we clamour for any scrum half who can occasionally put together three good passes to be put in the England squad!

Puja

There was a glint in Eddie Jones’ eye last month as he was asked whether any half-backs had impressed him since the Premiership resumption. The England head coach did not need a second’s thought.

Immediately, he heralded the “absolutely outstanding” and “brilliant” first-half performance of Ben Youngs in Leicester Tigers’ 13-7 win over London Irish. Jones offered no more suggestions of in-form scrum-halves.


This is horribly depressing

1) It's Ben Youngs
2) It's London fucking Irish

Puja wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:I’d put Spencer ahead of Ali Price I think. Had Price not decided he was Scottish, I’m not sure we’d be clamouring for his inclusion in the England squad. He’d be a contender, but is no better than Spencer or Robson IMO.

You kidding me? If Price was English and turning in the performances in the Prem that he does for Glasgow, we would absolutely be clamouring for his inclusion in the England squad - we clamour for any scrum half who can occasionally put together three good passes to be put in the England squad!

Puja

I agree our view is somewhat clouded by desperation but I do think you’re overrating Price whilst being very harsh on Spencer and Robson.

I suspect if either were playing for another country (and actually had a proper chance of test rugby), they’d have been in your list of ‘better than ours’.

Scrumhead wrote:

Puja wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:I’d put Spencer ahead of Ali Price I think. Had Price not decided he was Scottish, I’m not sure we’d be clamouring for his inclusion in the England squad. He’d be a contender, but is no better than Spencer or Robson IMO.

You kidding me? If Price was English and turning in the performances in the Prem that he does for Glasgow, we would absolutely be clamouring for his inclusion in the England squad - we clamour for any scrum half who can occasionally put together three good passes to be put in the England squad!

Puja

I agree our view is somewhat clouded by desperation but I do think you’re overrating Price whilst being very harsh on Spencer and Robson.

I suspect if either were playing for another country (and actually had a proper chance of test rugby), they’d have been in your list of ‘better than ours’.

I'll separate out Robson here, as I think he's better than Spencer and probably is on the same level as Ali Price - my original argument was against the idea that Spencer was better than a lot of regular tier 1 international 9s and I got caught up replying to you.

In my opinion, were Spencer playing for another country and actually had a proper chance of test rugby, he'd be in that, "Not a disaster player, but you'd be quite pleased if the first choice was injured and they had to bring him in," category. The annoying thing is that we just don't know!

Puja

So I think we’re pretty close to being in agreement here. I rate Spencer a bit more than you do, but of the Tier 1 9s you mentioned, the only ones I think he might be better than are Braley and Price.

Scrumhead wrote:So I think we’re pretty close to being in agreement here. I rate Spencer a bit more than you do, but of the Tier 1 9s you mentioned, the only ones I think he might be better than are Braley and Price.

Ugh. I hate it when we're all being reasonable and sensible. SO BORING.

Puja

We are the world....

Puja wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:So I think we’re pretty close to being in agreement here. I rate Spencer a bit more than you do, but of the Tier 1 9s you mentioned, the only ones I think he might be better than are Braley and Price.

Ugh. I hate it when we're all being reasonable and sensible. SO BORING.

Puja

Don’t worry, it’s not reasonable. Nobody has a clue if Spencer can do it at this level.

He might well be able to, and we should definitely have a look, but there’s so many differences at international level. And that’s before you get to whether he fits EJ’s idea of what a scrumhalf should be doing.

The Bath pack are looking very handy this ‘season’, perhaps Spencer has a lot to do with that, but given he’s spent years struggling slightly behind this monster Sarries pack I’m cautious to assume he’s going to take the step up so easily.

It would be nice to know and we should by now......

Indeed. In 5 years Eddie has only given meaningful game time to Youngs, Care and Heinz. While Robson, Maunder and Spencer all have caps, they’ve probably had the equivalent of one game between them ...

Danno wrote:There was a glint in Eddie Jones’ eye last month as he was asked whether any half-backs had impressed him since the Premiership resumption. The England head coach did not need a second’s thought.

Immediately, he heralded the “absolutely outstanding” and “brilliant” first-half performance of Ben Youngs in Leicester Tigers’ 13-7 win over London Irish. Jones offered no more suggestions of in-form scrum-halves.


This is horribly depressing

1) It's Ben Youngs
2) It's London fucking Irish

While it might be wishful thinking, this is exactly the kind of thing Eddie would do immediately before dropping an established player and blocking their number from his phone.

Puja

Scrumhead wrote:Indeed. In 5 years Eddie has only given meaningful game time to Youngs, Care and Heinz. While Robson, Maunder and Spencer all have caps, they’ve probably had the equivalent of one game between them ...

Maunder: 2 x bench; 3 minutes total
Spencer: 5 x bench; 20 minutes total
Robson: 4 x bench; 30 minutes total
Wigglesworth: 1 x start; 5 x bench; 142 minutes total
Heinz: 4 x start; 9 x bench; 387 minutes total

And then there's Youngs and Care - I think that's it for SHs that Eddie's used

I forgot Wigglesworth ...

Are you sure Maunder is only 3mins? I thought he had at least 10 in Argentina.

Changing the subject slightly, I now feel like I was 100% right in bemoaning our lack of effort to secure Jake Polledri.

On the one hand, I think he already had a bit of commitment to Italy, but on the other it didn’t seem like we made much of an effort to go after him.

IMO, he’s the form 8 in the Premiership and is developing in to a fine player. Feels wasted in an Italian team that’s shown no signs of getting better.

Scrumhead wrote:I forgot Wigglesworth ...

Are you sure Maunder is only 3mins? I thought he had at least 10 in Argentina.

Pedant

That list is an indictment on Jones’s forward planning at 9.

Scrumhead wrote:Changing the subject slightly, I now feel like I was 100% right in bemoaning our lack of effort to secure Jake Polledri.

On the one hand, I think he already had a bit of commitment to Italy, but on the other it didn’t seem like we made much of an effort to go after him.

IMO, he’s the form 8 in the Premiership and is developing in to a fine player. Feels wasted in an Italian team that’s shown no signs of getting better.

He's a good player and in very good form, but I don't know he's a massive loss to the English rugby team, especially given our other riches in the back row. I think we'll be fine without him.

Puja

Scrumhead wrote:I forgot Wigglesworth ...

Are you sure Maunder is only 3mins? I thought he had at least 10 in Argentina.

I desperately tried to forget Wigglesworth.
I got the minutes from Statbunker - entirely possible the match lasted 87 minutes, but if he came on at 77, it would only count as 3

Scrumhead wrote:Changing the subject slightly, I now feel like I was 100% right in bemoaning our lack of effort to secure Jake Polledri.

On the one hand, I think he already had a bit of commitment to Italy, but on the other it didn’t seem like we made much of an effort to go after him.

IMO, he’s the form 8 in the Premiership and is developing in to a fine player. Feels wasted in an Italian team that’s shown no signs of getting better.

He's doing well, but it's still not like we don't have an embarassment of riches in the backrow

Which Tyler wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:I forgot Wigglesworth ...

Are you sure Maunder is only 3mins? I thought he had at least 10 in Argentina.

I desperately tried to forget Wigglesworth.
I got the minutes from Statbunker - entirely possible the match lasted 87 minutes, but if he came on at 77, it would only count as 3

It did not. He had three minutes, almost all of which Argentina had the ball. He made one pass, for England to kick it out. It is the most underwhelming England career since Chris Pennell's literal 1 minute against New Zealand.

Puja

Isiekwe got about 2 minutes in the same game if i recall correctly.

One of the things i really dislike about Jones is putting players on with just a few minutes to go (see also Don Armand), while others you just know are going to be subbed at 55-60 minutes irrespective of how they are playing.

Puja wrote:

Which Tyler wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:I forgot Wigglesworth ...

Are you sure Maunder is only 3mins? I thought he had at least 10 in Argentina.

I desperately tried to forget Wigglesworth.
I got the minutes from Statbunker - entirely possible the match lasted 87 minutes, but if he came on at 77, it would only count as 3

It did not. He had three minutes, almost all of which Argentina had the ball. He made one pass, for England to kick it out. It is the most underwhelming England career since Chris Pennell's literal 1 minute against New Zealand.

Puja

Two passes. The first started the move which resulted in Solomona's try.

3:43 in the highlights:

The second pass was for England to kick it out after the restart.

There was someone proclaiming him as the coming messiah off the back of those 3 minutes (not here, elsewhere) quite hilarious really.

There’s a joke about your debut, 3 mins and coming but I can’t quite piece it together.

The criticism of Spencer needs to be held in check a smidge until he has had a full season at Bath. Spending year after year trying to play like Wigglesworth and being under Farrell's thumb needs to be worked out of his system. IMO, if Jones resigned tomorrow the odds are high that his successor would start by picking Spencer st 9 with Robson on the bench. That is not to say that either (or both) would last but they would very likely be tested properly.

Oakboy wrote:The criticism of Spencer needs to be held in check a smidge until he has had a full season at Bath. Spending year after year trying to play like Wigglesworth and being under Farrell's thumb needs to be worked out of his system. IMO, if Jones resigned tomorrow the odds are high that his successor would start by picking Spencer st 9 with Robson on the bench. That is not to say that either (or both) would last but they would very likely be tested properly.

I'm not sure they would, tbh...

I imagine quite a few coaches would pick Robson first. And many would pick Mitchell on the bench. I think Spencer is in a fight here.

I would really like to see us branch out a little bit, but that's unlikely to happen as it'd need Farrell to be dropped.