RugbyRebels

fivepointer wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 6:52 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 5:59 pm

fivepointer wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 5:54 pm

He isnt. But i dont expect SB to make a major change this 6N.

He's made a lot of major changes elsewhere.....its genuinely daft that this level of performance is tolerated, and has been for ages.

It is but plainly SB thinks he's worth keeping on.
I've come to the view that there is something that i'm not seeing in Farrell that his coaches, team mates and loads of people in the game - some highly respected - do. I admit defeat. They know better. He simply has to be a net positive effect on the team and squad otherwise he would have been binned ages ago.
Now it might be that his time is coming to an end.
We can only hope.
But for now, he isnt going anywhere.

same debate since he was first selected tbh

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 8:38 pm

switchskier wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 8:36 pm

fivepointer wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 6:52 pm

It is but plainly SB thinks he's worth keeping on.
I've come to the view that there is something that i'm not seeing in Farrell that his coaches, team mates and loads of people in the game - some highly respected - do. I admit defeat. They know better. He simply has to be a net positive effect on the team and squad otherwise he would have been binned ages ago.
Now it might be that his time is coming to an end.
We can only hope.
But for now, he isnt going anywhere.

If you look at it that way he could be the starter until he's 40. He's not exactly got blinding pace to lose and his skills and footwork have never been his selling point.

MOD! MOD! This is a ban. Dominant hit to the head with no mitigation.

I mean, it is direct contact to the head, forceful and could cause serious damage, but it is Owen Farrell, so precedent would suggest that it's a 8 week ban, downgraded to 1 week because he's such a nice chap, his coaches say he's lovely, and he ate biscuits very genteely in the hearing. Plus the 1 week discount if he completes the posting course to improve his technique on low blows, so he's able to return to the board immediately.

Puja

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 11:16 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 9:15 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 5:44 pm
But its worse than handbraking the attack, though that's bad enough. He's a defensive liability even at 10, his goal kicking is average to below average these days, Slade has even taken over kicking to the left touchline (counter intuitive that). I mean....what does he bring- a strong northern accent and a belligerent ref annoying field presence??

Marcus Smith's kicking to touch was woeful Vs Scotland if Smith's at 10 and Slade's at 13 then we'll be using Slade's big left boot to kick to touch again.

Where was Farrell's defensive liabilities on the weekend? Or at Sarries who regularly have an excellent defence? At 12 he's impatient and without the cool head of Joseph or raw stopping power of Manu that's an issue.

I'm happy with neither option.

5 missed tackles. Our backs defence was shaky and he was part of that. Last time out for Sarries do you recall what happened? Anyway, you clearly want Faz over Smith so we shall leave it there.

I refer to my comment "I'm happy with neither option"

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 7:30 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 11:16 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 9:15 pm

Marcus Smith's kicking to touch was woeful Vs Scotland if Smith's at 10 and Slade's at 13 then we'll be using Slade's big left boot to kick to touch again.

Where was Farrell's defensive liabilities on the weekend? Or at Sarries who regularly have an excellent defence? At 12 he's impatient and without the cool head of Joseph or raw stopping power of Manu that's an issue.

I'm happy with neither option.

5 missed tackles. Our backs defence was shaky and he was part of that. Last time out for Sarries do you recall what happened? Anyway, you clearly want Faz over Smith so we shall leave it there.

I refer to my comment "I'm happy with neither option"

nope, you are a farrellite and I claim my £5

To be fair to FKAS it is more opposed to Smith than in favour of Farrell, even as a Sarries fan.

Let’s just go with F Smith

p/d wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 8:42 am To be fair to FKAS it is more opposed to Smith than in favour of Farrell, even as a Sarries fan.

Let’s just go with F Smith

p/d wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 8:42 am Let’s just go with F Smith

Smithers over Smudge ? - could well end up there.
Will be interesting if Eng do manage to flop out of (*) their Pool D later this year.
(*) i.e. to the KO stages.

If we don't, heads need to roll. Apart from Argentina, we must also have lost to one of Japan, Chile and Samoa. We can't ever have had such an easy pool

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 7:30 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 11:16 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 9:15 pm

Marcus Smith's kicking to touch was woeful Vs Scotland if Smith's at 10 and Slade's at 13 then we'll be using Slade's big left boot to kick to touch again.

Where was Farrell's defensive liabilities on the weekend? Or at Sarries who regularly have an excellent defence? At 12 he's impatient and without the cool head of Joseph or raw stopping power of Manu that's an issue.

I'm happy with neither option.

5 missed tackles. Our backs defence was shaky and he was part of that. Last time out for Sarries do you recall what happened? Anyway, you clearly want Faz over Smith so we shall leave it there.

I refer to my comment "I'm happy with neither option"

No flyhalf is a radical move. You must have a preference and it’s clear it’s Farrell.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 9:55 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 7:30 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 11:16 pm

5 missed tackles. Our backs defence was shaky and he was part of that. Last time out for Sarries do you recall what happened? Anyway, you clearly want Faz over Smith so we shall leave it there.

I refer to my comment "I'm happy with neither option"

No flyhalf is a radical move. You must have a preference and it’s clear it’s Farrell.

Not really I just don't believe that Smith is the golden bullet solution. They have very different strengths and weaknesses but it all boils out as England having an average flyhalf by international standards wearing the 10 shirt.

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:46 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 9:55 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 7:30 am

I refer to my comment "I'm happy with neither option"

No flyhalf is a radical move. You must have a preference and it’s clear it’s Farrell.

Not really I just don't believe that Smith is the golden bullet solution. They have very different strengths and weaknesses but it all boils out as England having an average flyhalf by international standards wearing the 10 shirt.

Fail to believe you don’t have a preference, especially given how different they are as you say, but ok. Not sure anybody thinks Smith is the golden bullet solution but Farrell is what he is at that stage of his career whilst Smith has the potential to be a lot better.

We have kicked the Farrell subject around . . . . .

I will never understand the coaching stance, apparently perpetuated by SB, of not allowing the bench FH to come on and play FH (properly, with two proper [starting] centres). Either the FH should replace the FH or we should not bother with a FH on the bench. It leaves Smith as either pure Farrell-injury cover, or scapegoat because he has Farrell at 12 every time he gets on the pitch.

Why would anybody ever not have flyhalf injury cover in a squad? I really don’t understand why that’s bugging you. Even if you intend for your starter to do 80. It’s not far from forgoing a replacement 9.

Of course it would be good to see Smith with proper centres but we know OF’s talents transcend on-field action.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 5:56 pm We have kicked the Farrell subject around . . . . .

I will never understand the coaching stance, apparently perpetuated by SB, of not allowing the bench FH to come on and play FH (properly, with two proper [starting] centres). Either the FH should replace the FH or we should not bother with a FH on the bench. It leaves Smith as either pure Farrell-injury cover, or scapegoat because he has Farrell at 12 every time he gets on the pitch.

Smith played last seasons 6N and Baabaas game without Farrell. The game Vs France and the Baabaas debacle were worse performances from 10 than we've seen recently from Farrell. The Farrell at 12 excuse runs a bit thin.

Having said that I would have much preferred Farrell come off and Smith to go on Vs Italy. I'd like us to find a working centre combination and then play them as much as possible and if that's Lawrence and Slade then give them all the minutes so they have a chance to gel. I'd have also like to see Smith get more than 9 minutes because we have to hope at some point potential will become realised.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 5:56 pm We have kicked the Farrell subject around . . . . .

I will never understand the coaching stance, apparently perpetuated by SB, of not allowing the bench FH to come on and play FH (properly, with two proper [starting] centres). Either the FH should replace the FH or we should not bother with a FH on the bench. It leaves Smith as either pure Farrell-injury cover, or scapegoat because he has Farrell at 12 every time he gets on the pitch.

Who covers centre then?

6N 2021

Rd1:
Youngs
Smith
Slade
Daly

Rd2:
Randall
Smith
Slade
Marchant

Rd3:
Randall
Smith
Slade
Daly

Rd4:
Randall
Smith
Slade
Marchant

Rd5:
Youngs
Smith
Slade
Marchant


So a revolving door at 9 - one of which was way past his best and one who was never good enough - a 12 who isn’t a 12 - at least we’re consistent there - and another revolving door at 13, and all behind a pack going backwards and a complete mess when it came to game plan.
If you’re going to pick out individual performances then, despite the above, he won two motm and was top points scorer. He also played 10 when England beat SA the previous autumn, without Farrell.
To sum up, he stated his international career as the wheels were falling off Jones’s reign, he’s played outside Youngs, Care, Randall and JVP, he’s never had an actual 12 and he’s had a revolving cast of Daly, Marchant, Porter and Tuilagi at 13. And all of this in 19/20 caps.

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 9:00 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 5:56 pm We have kicked the Farrell subject around . . . . .

I will never understand the coaching stance, apparently perpetuated by SB, of not allowing the bench FH to come on and play FH (properly, with two proper [starting] centres). Either the FH should replace the FH or we should not bother with a FH on the bench. It leaves Smith as either pure Farrell-injury cover, or scapegoat because he has Farrell at 12 every time he gets on the pitch.

Smith played last seasons 6N and Baabaas game without Farrell. The game Vs France and the Baabaas debacle were worse performances from 10 than we've seen recently from Farrell. The Farrell at 12 excuse runs a bit thin.

Having said that I would have much preferred Farrell come off and Smith to go on Vs Italy. I'd like us to find a working centre combination and then play them as much as possible and if that's Lawrence and Slade then give them all the minutes so they have a chance to gel. I'd have also like to see Smith get more than 9 minutes because we have to hope at some point potential will become realised.

6N 2021

Rd1:
Youngs
Smith
Slade
Daly

Rd2:
Randall
Smith
Slade
Marchant

Rd3:
Randall
Smith
Slade
Daly

Rd4:
Randall
Smith
Slade
Marchant

Rd5:
Youngs
Smith
Slade
Marchant


So a revolving door at 9 - one of which was way past his best and one who was never good enough - a 12 who isn’t a 12 - at least we’re consistent there - and another revolving door at 13, and all behind a pack going backwards and a complete mess when it came to game plan.
If you’re going to pick out individual performances then, despite the above, he won two motm and was top points scorer. He also played 10 when England beat SA the previous autumn, without Farrell.
To sum up, he stated his international career as the wheels were falling off Jones’s reign, he’s played outside Youngs, Care, Randall and JVP, he’s never had an actual 12 and he’s had a revolving cast of Daly, Marchant, Porter and Tuilagi at 13. And all of this in his first 19/20 caps. Not exactly an exemplar of how to introduce a young 10 in to test rugby.

I was impressed with that on the first reading, blown away by those facts once I had read it again

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 10:03 pm So a revolving door at 9 - one of which was way past his best and one who was never good enough - a 12 who isn’t a 12 - at least we’re consistent there - and another revolving door at 13, and all behind a pack going backwards and a complete mess when it came to game plan.
If you’re going to pick out individual performances then, despite the above, he won two motm and was top points scorer. He also played 10 when England beat SA the previous autumn, without Farrell.
To sum up, he stated his international career as the wheels were falling off Jones’s reign, he’s played outside Youngs, Care, Randall and JVP, he’s never had an actual 12 and he’s had a revolving cast of Daly, Marchant, Porter and Tuilagi at 13. And all of this in his first 19/20 caps. Not exactly an exemplar of how to introduce a young 10 in to test rugby.

Out of interest - who's the last England FH to have enjoyed a partnership with an actual 12, or who wasn't hampered by 9s who aren't good enough, or indeed, who actually had a stable pair of centres to work with? Let alone 3 of those variables.

Probably St Jonny was the last to get all 3 of those.
Barritt was the last actual 12 I can think of to get enough caps to be considered stable.
Last decent 9 means going back before the days and Youngs & Care.
Last stable centre partnership would be Farrell and Joseph - who may not count because if Farrell with 50 caps at IC is a handicap, just imagine what Farrell with 0 matches (club or country) at IC would be.

Classic whataboutery but… given Youngs has 117 caps and Farrell 103 then I’m guessing George Ford would have had the stability either side of him and although the 13s changed it wasn’t pretty much every single match and whilst his 9 & 12 were also changing. I‘d also argue he was stymied by having Farrell, and have numerous times, and then a declining Youngs, which I have many times… so I’m not saying all other England 10s have had armchair rides just that Smith has been particularly dicked about. Ford was also stymied by Jones at times, see post 2019 RWC when we decided to kick the ball non-stop albeit Ford was happy with that tactic, at least he was in public, but it was never the tactical mess that was Jones’s numberless shirts of endless pull backs to the second receiver miles from the gain line.
I’m not arguing Smith is the messiah but he’s not been given a chance to acclimatise to test rugby.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 10:01 pm 6N 2021

Rd1:
Youngs
Smith
Slade
Daly

Rd2:
Randall
Smith
Slade
Marchant

Rd3:
Randall
Smith
Slade
Daly

Rd4:
Randall
Smith
Slade
Marchant

Rd5:
Youngs
Smith
Slade
Marchant


So a revolving door at 9 - one of which was way past his best and one who was never good enough - a 12 who isn’t a 12 - at least we’re consistent there - and another revolving door at 13, and all behind a pack going backwards and a complete mess when it came to game plan.
If you’re going to pick out individual performances then, despite the above, he won two motm and was top points scorer. He also played 10 when England beat SA the previous autumn, without Farrell.
To sum up, he stated his international career as the wheels were falling off Jones’s reign, he’s played outside Youngs, Care, Randall and JVP, he’s never had an actual 12 and he’s had a revolving cast of Daly, Marchant, Porter and Tuilagi at 13. And all of this in 19/20 caps.

So, Smith has played 6/14 times without/with Farrell?? Accepting all your points about other backs' competence/change, just what is a reasonable opportunity? Smith looked like setting the world on fire and, overall has not - yet.

Where should SB go from here? His choices are: 1. Farrell at 10 (no Smith); 2. Smith at 10 (no Farrell); 3. Smith/Farrell at 10/12; 4. Ford/Farrell at 10/12; 5. Ford at 10 (no Smith or Farrell); 6. Somebody else.

We can discount 2, 5 and 6 for various reasons (Farrell undroppable, few games before RWC etc.). Most of us would vote for 2 or 5 and I suspect a significant majority would opt for 5 (Ford without the other two) but it won't happen.

Realistically, it is tried and tested 4 or 1.

Whatever the fairness of Smith's treatment/assessment I doubt he'll play much until after the RWC if Ford is fit. Much as I prefer Ford to Farrell if we can only have one or the other with a non-Farrell 12, I'd prefer to stick with option 1 (Farrell at 10) much as I think it sucks.

Is there even a remote chance that SB will have the balls to simply pick his best 10 and choose Ford with one of the other two on the bench?

I feel like you’re answering all of your own questions. Farrell is always playing if available. Are you genuinely expecting anybody to suggest otherwise?

When is Ford going to be available? Possibly for France but even that might be a stretch given he has played so little.

My guess is that SB will persist with Farrell at 10 for the rest of the 6N's.

He then has some breathing space to properly consider where he goes for the WC. Time is short but if he brings back Ford he wont be chucking a rookie into the side, plus he will have Smith, who does some some international mileage under his belt, and possibly there is you know who.

Right now i think he will go with the 9-13 that started last time and hope to develop them over the next 3 matches.

fivepointer wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 9:21 am When is Ford going to be available? Possibly for France but even that might be a stretch given he has played so little.

My guess is that SB will persist with Farrell at 10 for the rest of the 6N's.

He then has some breathing space to properly consider where he goes for the WC. Time is short but if he brings back Ford he wont be chucking a rookie into the side, plus he will have Smith, who does some some international mileage under his belt, and possibly there is you know who.

Right now i think he will go with the 9-13 that started last time and hope to develop them over the next 3 matches.

Aye. The problem then is the gulf in style between all three fly half contenders, or then moving Faz to 12. Tricky corner we've painted ourselves into.

fivepointer wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 9:21 am When is Ford going to be available? Possibly for France but even that might be a stretch given he has played so little.

He's playing again now isn't he? So he's available for Wales - but only if there's an injury to allow him to come in from outside the EPS.