RugbyRebels

Malins - defensively sound at 15, good enough hands to play fairly well at 10, pacey enough to play on the wing. Maybe, he should play at 12?

Oakboy wrote:Malins - defensively sound at 15, good enough hands to play fairly well at 10, pacey enough to play on the wing. Maybe, he should play at 12?

I have yet to see him do a single tackle without his arms. Clearly not got the "character" and "leadership" for an England 12.

Puja

Glol.

Puja wrote:

Oakboy wrote:Malins - defensively sound at 15, good enough hands to play fairly well at 10, pacey enough to play on the wing. Maybe, he should play at 12?

I have yet to see him do a single tackle without his arms. Clearly not got the "character" and "leadership" for an England 12.

Puja

Ah, sorry, I forgot that.

Seriously, though, when they come back up who will be at 12 for Saracens, assuming 'no arms' is at 10?

Excuse me, but pacy, good hands, defensively sound with good tackle technique surely = 7?

Oakboy wrote:Malins - defensively sound at 15, good enough hands to play fairly well at 10, pacey enough to play on the wing. Maybe, he should play at 12?

He's got the skill set (almost, not totally convinced by his D), but he'd use all his energy tackling, and never get the space he needs to flourish

I'm sure he could give it a good stab mind you. I love watching him play, such a talented player.

Moreover, I think it would be a shame if we can't find a place for him in the side. I can definitely see Freeman or Steward making a good stab of 15, and Malins isn't an international wing, so maybe 12 is the answer! You'd want him to be playing there at club level though, obviously.

Slade's the one that's the shame for me. Had he played there for Exe I think he'd have nailed down the spot for England

Personally I’d love to see him bulk up massively and become a crash ball merchant.

Banquo wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:Not just dismissed either ... ‘dismissed with ease’ ...

Mentioning Malins as an option at 10 is odd too. I know he’s played there a couple of times for Bristol and on a couple of occasions at Saracens, but I don’t think anyone thinks it’s his best position or that he’s a stronger option than Smith or Simmonds at 10.

At 15 he is definitely worth persevering with, but I wouldn’t want him as our back up 10.

Funnily enough, I thought he played mainly for Sarries at 10- and looked very good there. Could be wrong though!

IIRC, the only times Malins started at 10 for Saracens was in the A League or maybe a dead rubber or two?

He had a tendency to get injured at unfortunate times where he would probably have played more - like during the RWC, but there were also a few occasions where I seem to remember Saracens played Goode at 10 with Malins at 15. I could be wrong on that though ...

He’s only made 31 Premiership appearances in total which is very low considering he’s 24. To put it in to perspective, Marcus Smith is two years younger and has played 79 Premiership games. Joe Simmonds (also 24) has played 70 even with his slow introduction.

Saw this and was just wondering about somebody's comment about Sam Simmonds and his pace off the base of the scrum. Is this a thing we ever really see from him/Exeter?



Obviously this Tuisova one is an extreme example, but I've just realised it's not a part of his game I've really noticed or paid attention to. In theory you'd think it could be a good weapon.

Oakboy wrote:

Puja wrote:

Oakboy wrote:Malins - defensively sound at 15, good enough hands to play fairly well at 10, pacey enough to play on the wing. Maybe, he should play at 12?

I have yet to see him do a single tackle without his arms. Clearly not got the "character" and "leadership" for an England 12.

Puja

Ah, sorry, I forgot that.

Seriously, though, when they come back up who will be at 12 for Saracens, assuming 'no arms' is at 10?

The options in the centres I think are Lozowski, Morris, Taylor, Thompkins and that's assuming neither Sloan nor Socino are retained.

From that you'd assume Thompkins and Lozowski would be at 12 and 13 and then either Taylor or Morris switched in if they want more physicality. Old no arm's could move to 12 if young Vunipola develops as expected or if Sarries want to find space for Malins or Lozowski at 10. Lozowski has been playing 10 at Montpellier.

Mikey Brown wrote:Saw this and was just wondering about somebody's comment about Sam Simmonds and his pace off the base of the scrum. Is this a thing we ever really see from him/Exeter?



Obviously this Tuisova one is an extreme example, but I've just realised it's not a part of his game I've really noticed or paid attention to. In theory you'd think it could be a good weapon.

Unfortunately with defensive 9s basically being allowed to go as far offside as they like at scrums, it's rare that a quick 8 can get away untouched - all the 9 has to do is slow them enough for the back row to get to them. There's an ELV currently being trialled in the US that defensive 9s have to go to the back foot of their own scrum (or join the backline if they want) and, for all that it'd be a shame to lose the skills of a niggly 9 interfering at the base, it'd be nice to go back to sides being able to use the ball from a scrum without getting dry-humped by the opposition 9 the minute they look like playing it.

Puja

Scrumhead wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:Not just dismissed either ... ‘dismissed with ease’ ...

Mentioning Malins as an option at 10 is odd too. I know he’s played there a couple of times for Bristol and on a couple of occasions at Saracens, but I don’t think anyone thinks it’s his best position or that he’s a stronger option than Smith or Simmonds at 10.

At 15 he is definitely worth persevering with, but I wouldn’t want him as our back up 10.

Funnily enough, I thought he played mainly for Sarries at 10- and looked very good there. Could be wrong though!

IIRC, the only times Malins started at 10 for Saracens was in the A League or maybe a dead rubber or two?

He had a tendency to get injured at unfortunate times where he would probably have played more - like during the RWC, but there were also a few occasions where I seem to remember Saracens played Goode at 10 with Malins at 15. I could be wrong on that though ...

He’s only made 31 Premiership appearances in total which is very low considering he’s 24. To put it in to perspective, Marcus Smith is two years younger and has played 79 Premiership games. Joe Simmonds (also 24) has played 70 even with his slow introduction.

I genuinely don't remember him at 15 for Sarries, but that's old age. He was mainly a 10 in his later representative rugby, having been a 15 at u16 level iirc. The times I saw him at 10 for Sarries, I thought he looked good there and that it was his natural position (ie he looked comfortable there); he is a very decent 15 though. Don't really see him as a 12 though per the above comments.

Banquo wrote: Don't really see him as a 12 though per the above comments.

Fair enough. There is bound to be an element of straw-clutching on my part because, one SF win against NZ apart, I just don't see evidence that a '8-12 set' of Billy V, Youngs, Ford and Farrell is good enough to win the RWC. 9 and 12 remain the worst positions for potential better alternatives (so far anyway).

Mikey Brown wrote:Saw this and was just wondering about somebody's comment about Sam Simmonds and his pace off the base of the scrum. Is this a thing we ever really see from him/Exeter?



Obviously this Tuisova one is an extreme example, but I've just realised it's not a part of his game I've really noticed or paid attention to. In theory you'd think it could be a good weapon.

By the time the attacking scrumhalf has basically joined the back row, trapping in the defending 9, you'd have hoped the defence would have read the telegraph they were being sent about what was coming here wouldn't you?

16th man wrote:By the time the attacking scrumhalf has basically joined the back row, trapping in the defending 9, you'd have hoped the defence would have read the telegraph they were being sent about what was coming here wouldn't you?

TBF, the defending 9 had already given away a penalty try and yellow card for tackling the man still bound in the scrum. Attacking 9 is responding - stupidly, as the yellow card doesn't get shown if the try is scored properly.

As for telegraphing, surely the first telegraph was putting a winger in at 8

Oakboy wrote:

Banquo wrote: Don't really see him as a 12 though per the above comments.

Fair enough. There is bound to be an element of straw-clutching on my part because, one SF win against NZ apart, I just don't see evidence that a '8-12 set' of Billy V, Youngs, Ford and Farrell is good enough to win the RWC. 9 and 12 remain the worst positions for potential better alternatives (so far anyway).

Personally I think we are short in a few other positions tbh. I'd ditch Farrell to the bench (at best) in a heartbeat; Youngs is somewhat of a curates egg. I'd give O'Conor a run at 12. Agreed at 9 and 12, but there is hardly a big queue of contenders.
I'd also say that I was surprised that we were beaten so easily by SA in the 2019 final, when I'd have thought we were favourites going into the game, including your 4 targets. Sh&t happens tho.

Which Tyler wrote:

16th man wrote:By the time the attacking scrumhalf has basically joined the back row, trapping in the defending 9, you'd have hoped the defence would have read the telegraph they were being sent about what was coming here wouldn't you?

TBF, the defending 9 had already given away a penalty try and yellow card for tackling the man still bound in the scrum. Attacking 9 is responding - stupidly, as the yellow card doesn't get shown if the try is scored properly.

As for telegraphing, surely the first telegraph was putting a winger in at 8

And the easiest part of a race to put a gap on a slower player is speed off the mark, the relative difference in plyometrics here is giving the backrow a huge amount of space to cover given his 9 pushed up and achieved nothing. If you pile in as the defending 9 you've got to do more than nothing (and ideally not give an option for you getting pinged either)

Not sure what the wider defence could have done there to step in, we're not seeing the attack Vs defence shape, but that's a huge shortside to be covering and getting 2 or 3 players to step in with unison there quickly enough and in organised fashion would be a tricky read and trickier to act on quickly enough, even more so if you watch the man

Digby wrote:And the easiest part of a race to put a gap on a slower player is speed off the mark, the relative difference in plyometrics here is giving the backrow a huge amount of space to cover given his 9 pushed up and achieved nothing. If you pile in as the defending 9 you've got to do more than nothing (and ideally not give an option for you getting pinged either)

Not sure what the wider defence could have done there to step in, we're not seeing the attack Vs defence shape, but that's a huge shortside to be covering and getting 2 or 3 players to step in with unison there quickly enough and in organised fashion would be a tricky read and trickier to act on quickly enough, even more so if you watch the man

As a SH, the way I read that is that if I were Red 9, I'd be furious with the ref allowing Blue 9 to interfere with my 8 before he's got the ball.

If I were Blue 8, I'd be furious with the ref for allowing Red 9 to pin me in; and also desperately trying to distract my own 6 from my failure.

As you say, the wider defence are suddenly (presumably) defending a 3 on 2; with an unknown point of initial attack (Tuisova can pick basically any line he chooses) - so no real blame there.

As for Sam Simmonds - I'm sure he could do that, but I'm also sure he'd get a bollocking from Baxter for getting isolated if he tried it. At least wait for the ref to call penalty advantage against Blue 9 before pulling the trigger.

I'm not going to say Sam Simmonds couldn't do that, but you can have some very similar sprint times over 40m and yet manage (or not) to open 1-2m of a gap inside 5m of space dependent on exactly how fast you can get off the mark. The tiny fractions of a second difference here will matter enormously

Simmonds is certainly excellent for an 8, whether he's quite at the level of that winger I really don't know. Also you'd normally have to assume the defending 9 would be doing something more sensible anyway, Blue 9 has made something of a Hail Mary play on defence there and it hasn't worked, they've either got to put more pressure on the play or just be uber cynical if not actually looking to defend, mostly you'd think they should just be defending.

Amor and Ryles have both left the england setup.

Ryles never really joined.

I wonder if the new attacking style was Amor, or Eddie. It was reminiscent (at least to me) of Japan's pace.

Agreed. I guess we’ll never know, but I’d agree that some aspects were reminiscent of Eddie’s work with Japan.

TBH, I’d love it if we moved more in that direction. Not all of our players have the skill level needed, but I’d argue that a lot do if given the license ...

Arguably very reminiscent of Japan, but you could make the same observation about it having lots of parallels with how the 7s game works on attack.

Fingers crossed this doesn't signify it's back to kick and chase

Hmm we know Eddie wanted Sam Vesty previously, Northampton and Boyd said a firm no. Vesty signed an extension last summer so I guess he's unavailable unless he inserted a clause should England come calling. Eddie does like rotating his coaches though he'll have to pick from within the UK you'd have thought because of Covid.

I never really understood Amor as a selection. 7s and 15s are completely different games nowadays and it seemed a weird risk to parachute in someone whose only top-level experience was in a related code.

Puja