RugbyRebels

SA looked a tad disorganized against the Baa-Baas, but they were fielding a new set of backs, and the power running of the centres plus the tremendous gas of both wings was clear. They will always have a tough pack. Would not be too surprised if SA caused an upset in this one.

Even without his service, he's been here for 8 years, and didn't come to play rugby at all, let alone to play professionally.
There really aren't many who'd want to exclude him are there? Even if he'd never find near a war-zone in our uniform.

Digby wrote:

Puja wrote:. I literally can't think of a thing that Yarde offers which Rokoduguni doesn't, except for youth (and maybe international experience if you count 9 caps as experience).

I am much happier that Yarde is English, though Roko's situation is also more than a bit different to someone like Barrett or Hughes

Pretty sure Yarde was born in St Lucia but raised and educated here, so while he's got more of a legitimate claim, neither is 'English' in the truest sense ...

Scrumhead wrote:

Digby wrote:

Puja wrote:. I literally can't think of a thing that Yarde offers which Rokoduguni doesn't, except for youth (and maybe international experience if you count 9 caps as experience).

I am much happier that Yarde is English, though Roko's situation is also more than a bit different to someone like Barrett or Hughes

Pretty sure Yarde was born in St Lucia but raised and educated here, so while he's got more of a legitimate claim, neither is 'English' in the truest sense ...

I know where Yarde was born. And I remain happier that Yarde is English than I do for Roko

Digby wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:

Digby wrote:
I am much happier that Yarde is English, though Roko's situation is also more than a bit different to someone like Barrett or Hughes

Pretty sure Yarde was born in St Lucia but raised and educated here, so while he's got more of a legitimate claim, neither is 'English' in the truest sense ...

I know where Yarde was born. And I remain happier that Yarde is English than I do for Roko

Even though Roko's been here for a third of his life and has served in our armed forces? That's a bit ungenerous, isn't it?

Puja

I did note Roko's situation is different to a Barritt or Hughes, which for me is more down to the army than his time here, and I also feel having capped him once and thus blocked him playing for Fiji that I'm happier still to see him play, much happier than with Hughes. Still, Roko didn't come as a kid so I'm not wholly comfortable with him playing for England.

What are your cut-offs? And do they include moving for non-rugby reasons?
IIRC he was 18/19 when he came over, many would call that a "kid"

Which Tyler wrote:What are your cut-offs? And do they include moving for non-rugby reasons?
IIRC he was 18/19 when he came over, many would call that a "kid"

I wouldn't have cut offs that impact such as Roko, nor even Hughes. I'm just progressively less comfortable as we go along a line of say Sinckler to Mako to Yarde to Roko to Harrison to Hughes to Te'o

Daly set to start at 13 apparently, Joseph struggling. Could be very interesting. He's brave but Joseph has become such a good defender. Imagine if we get some ball and Youngs can hit Ford occasionally though, that's some serious pace between May, Daly and Yarde.

Digby wrote:

Which Tyler wrote:What are your cut-offs? And do they include moving for non-rugby reasons?
IIRC he was 18/19 when he came over, many would call that a "kid"

I wouldn't have cut offs that impact such as Roko, nor even Hughes. I'm just progressively less comfortable as we go along a line of say Sinckler to Mako to Yarde to Roko to Harrison to Hughes to Te'o

Sinckler?

Stom wrote:

Digby wrote:

Which Tyler wrote:What are your cut-offs? And do they include moving for non-rugby reasons?
IIRC he was 18/19 when he came over, many would call that a "kid"

I wouldn't have cut offs that impact such as Roko, nor even Hughes. I'm just progressively less comfortable as we go along a line of say Sinckler to Mako to Yarde to Roko to Harrison to Hughes to Te'o

Sinckler?

Starting with the absolutely no problem and going from there

Mikey Brown wrote:Daly set to start at 13 apparently, Joseph struggling. Could be very interesting. He's brave but Joseph has become such a good defender. Imagine if we get some ball and Youngs can hit Ford occasionally though, that's some serious pace between May, Daly and Yarde.

Is Joseph really that much slower than Daly? A Farrell - Daly midfield looks a defensive nightmare to me. Thank goodness SA's centres make Nonu - Basteraud look subtle.

Mellsblue wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:Daly set to start at 13 apparently, Joseph struggling. Could be very interesting. He's brave but Joseph has become such a good defender. Imagine if we get some ball and Youngs can hit Ford occasionally though, that's some serious pace between May, Daly and Yarde.

Is Joseph really that much slower than Daly? A Farrell - Daly midfield looks a defensive nightmare to me. Thank goodness SA's centres make Nonu - Basteraud look subtle.

Nope.

I'm not sure why that's the focus of what I said, Joseph is obviously very quick though I've not seen him look quite as electric as a year or two back. Daly is a very different attacking prospect though and properly rapid.

Mikey Brown wrote:I'm not sure why that's the focus of what I said, Joseph is obviously very quick though I've not seen him look quite as electric as a year or two back. Daly is a very different attacking prospect though and properly rapid.

Because I don't get the idea that our attack will be much different with Daly rather than Joseph, or that Daly is much different to Joseph. They're pretty like for like in their capabilities. I wouldn't be surprised if Daly ran hotter for a bit at the start because teams have done less homework on him, but after that, I reckon they'll be much the same.

Peat wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:I'm not sure why that's the focus of what I said, Joseph is obviously very quick though I've not seen him look quite as electric as a year or two back. Daly is a very different attacking prospect though and properly rapid.

Because I don't get the idea that our attack will be much different with Daly rather than Joseph, or that Daly is much different to Joseph. They're pretty like for like in their capabilities. I wouldn't be surprised if Daly ran hotter for a bit at the start because teams have done less homework on him, but after that, I reckon they'll be much the same.

Think you are right when it comes to attack. Perhaps Daly offers a tad more with his all round footballing ability and massive left boot from hand or tee. Wonder if Jones has considered trying Joseph as a wing? He's got the gas, his defence is good and he'd be a potential threat coming infield. Just as soon have him as Yarde. Didn't he play on the wing a couple of years ago in a backs' reshuffle ? Alternatively - keep Joseph at 13 and try Daly on the wing. He's played there for wasps with good effect, and is very fast. He's an OK FB too. I like the idea of getting good footballers on to the field. NZ has looked a lot more dangerous with Dagg on the wing than the massive "strike runner" alternatives.
The SA centres may surprise. Van Resnburg is very poweerful but he's fast too and more than a bosher.

Daly has a better offloading game and his distribution is a bit better. Plus, he has a very useful left foot. Against that I do worry about his one on one defence. Daly for JJ is a downgrade for me. A slight one maybe, but nonetheless a downgrade. And in team with a few of those selections being required that does lower my optimism levels just a touch.

If I could massively over simplify it, I'd say Daly vs. JJ gives us +1 in attack, but -2 in defense.

Excellent player though, Daly, who I think could perfectly well do a job in the back three, probably wing, as I'd love to get him on the pitch. I think he's England's most talented attacker who should be getting more test experience than he's had thus far. So obviously I do think he gives us more going forward than JJ - if you watch the guy, he can make things happen that pretty much no other English player can, possibly Roko (I still don't get that decision) and Wade (I do get that decision) aside

As for being concerned about Daly and Farrell in midfield, I have a lot of trust in Farrell's organisation so I think it should be OK.

Medium term, I'd love to see a combo of:
11. May
13. JJ
14. Daly
15. Watson

Give them time to develop together alongside some good service from 9 to 12, and that's a really dangerous group of players. Surely the quickest England have ever had?

I commented after that last televised Bath game that it looked to me that Joseph had bulked up slightly at the cost of half a yard of pace. Maybe this injury is indicative of pumping more iron too. Who knows? I rate Daly highly but for this match only, with defence in mind, I would have preferred Slade as Joseph's starting replacement.

Daly has bulked up too.

I think JJ has done well, it's a shame he'll not be starting, though we haven't much looked to use him in attack which is odd. Daly though a decent replacement, a different attack game to JJ for me rather than a better one and less organised in defence, but it's nice to see him getting a chance.

Digby wrote:Daly has bulked up too.

I think JJ has done well, it's a shame he'll not be starting, though we haven't much looked to use him in attack which is odd. Daly though a decent replacement, a different attack game to JJ for me rather than a better one and less organised in defence, but it's nice to see him getting a chance.

I like Daly but it's a bold call to start him in this game given the other forced changes across the team.

Personally I would have stuck with JJ and brought Daly in to start against Fiji.

I don't see that it's such a bold call

We have to try a few things out right? It's not like he's an average player. He could be a star, why not throw him in against the Boks? I get there are changes elsewhere too but I don't see it as a massive risk

TheNomad wrote:I don't see that it's such a bold call

We have to try a few things out right? It's not like he's an average player. He could be a star, why not throw him in against the Boks? I get there are changes elsewhere too but I don't see it as a massive risk

I'm with you. Chucking him in against Fiji would prove absolutely nothing. We already know he can play at a lower level and even a dominant MotM performance against Fiji comes with substantial caveats. He's in top form, he's trained with England for a long time, he's been the main man in training the past fortnight while Joseph's been off, so why not give him a crack of the whip and learn something meaningful about how he does at the very top level.

Puja

Main thing does look to be Daly has done the training and JJ is only just back. Seems a fair call.

Jones on Roko, via The Times:
Eddie Jones believes that Semesa Rokoduguni was handled badly by England in the past and he will not rush the Bath wing back into the team because he fears that one wrong move could end his international career.

Jones has criticised the way that Stuart Lancaster, his predecessor, fast-tracked Rokoduguni into the England team to play New Zealand in November 2014 but never picked him again.

He is going to play Test rugby and I’ll pick the opportunity when the best time is for him to do it

Although Rokoduguni has been the form wing in the Aviva Premiership, Jones does not want to throw the 29-year-old straight back in at the deep end against South Africa. Marland Yarde and Jonny May will start tomorrow, with Rokoduguni more likely to relaunch his England career against his native Fiji the following Saturday.

“He is going to play Test rugby and I’ll pick the opportunity when the best time is for him to do it,” Jones said.

“I want him to play 30-40 Tests for England and to do that, I’ve got to make sure that what happened to him last time doesn’t happen again.


“So I’ve got to manage that player well. I want him to be right to play. Do you make your debut as a Test match batsman at the Waca against the West Indies and four quick bowlers or on the flat track in Melbourne against spinners? So you want to pick the right time to bring a player in.”

Jones is a fan of Rokoduguni’s footwork and physicality, although he does have a tendency to be too direct with the ball in hand. He is strong in the air but defence is the area he is having to spend most of his time working on.

“He’s got things that other guys can’t do,” Jones said. “I want his first Test back to be a game where he plays really well.

“If he does that, then his career will grow, but if he has another experience like he did in 2014, then he won’t play Test rugby again — and I want him to play Test rugby.”