Trump

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Stom
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Re: Trump

Post by Stom »

Puja wrote:
Stom wrote:By the way, why does no-one call this "Trumpism", "Nationalism fuelled populism" what it really is? Fascism.

Hell, does this sound familiar? Written in 1995
The cult of tradition. “One has only to look at the syllabus of every fascist movement to find the major traditionalist thinkers. The Nazi gnosis was nourished by traditionalist, syncretistic, occult elements.”
The rejection of modernism. “The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.”
The cult of action for action’s sake. “Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation.”
Disagreement is treason. “The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge.”
Fear of difference. “The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.”
Appeal to social frustration. “One of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups.”
The obsession with a plot. “Thus at the root of the Ur-Fascist psychology there is the obsession with a plot, possibly an international one. The followers must feel besieged.”
The enemy is both strong and weak. “By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.”
Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. “For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle.”
Contempt for the weak. “Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology.”
Everybody is educated to become a hero. “In Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked with the cult of death.”
Machismo and weaponry. “Machismo implies both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality.”
Selective populism. “There is in our future a TV or Internet populism, in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People.”
Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak. “All the Nazi or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning.”
I used the f-word in a post earlier, but I actually had to make myself use it - it's been such an established part of culture for so long that comparing an opponent to the Nazis is ridiculous hyperbole and a sign that you've lost the argument that it's hard to call something that is actively and completely fascist by its name.

From the Holocaust Museum:

Image

Puja
Well indeed.

I've been calling this modern form of American pseudo-Christianity "fascist Christianity" for a while, though that's not a completely true label.

And the fact is, the governments here, there, even in the UK, match with the concept of fascism to varying degrees. Here and the US closer than the UK, which has always had a very odd relationship with parts of its identity.

And we can see the same with Poland, Turkey, India, Brazil, Philippines...

They need to be called what they are.
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Stom
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Re: Trump

Post by Stom »

You want to see the most absolutely insane and ridiculous thing?

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/bla ... d_ms_tw_ma

I mean, wtf America?

These people are almost literally turkeys voting for Christmas. How can a black man vote for an open racist based upon "we can't have a bloody socialist in the White House" despite the fact Biden would be considered pretty goddamn conservative in most other countries in the world!

Jeez, I mean, seriously. Fuck.

America, you're broken.
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morepork
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Re: Trump

Post by morepork »

Not exactly hard hitting statistical analysis, but it does have a nice picture of a single black man surrounded by white dudes to support the narrative.
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Puja
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Re: Trump

Post by Puja »

Son of Mathonwy wrote:
Puja wrote:
Stom wrote:By the way, why does no-one call this "Trumpism", "Nationalism fuelled populism" what it really is? Fascism.

Hell, does this sound familiar? Written in 1995
I used the f-word in a post earlier, but I actually had to make myself use it - it's been such an established part of culture for so long that comparing an opponent to the Nazis is ridiculous hyperbole and a sign that you've lost the argument that it's hard to call something that is actively and completely fascist by its name.

From the Holocaust Museum:

Image

Puja
Good to see that stuff described in abstract form, stripped of the particular (eg Nazi) party trappings. Quite a few boxes ticked in the UK . . . even more in Trump's USA.
That picture actually illustrates my point about "fascist" being a difficult word to use through its hyperbolic overuse - I found it on a blog from 2004, trying to crowbar that template onto Bush.

Gods, we didn't know we were born back then, did we? There wasn't even the Tea Party in those days. If you offered me 4 more years of W or 4 more years of Trump, I'd take your hand off at the wrist.

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Digby
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Re: Trump

Post by Digby »

Sandydragon wrote:Looks like Biden will fall just short in Georgia.
My kingdom for a Zimmer frame
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Zhivago
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Re: Trump

Post by Zhivago »

Kicking off a bit in Maricopa county Arizona.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... ction-call
Image

I'm no expert, but what gun is that - is that an AR-15? Can we tick that box now?

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Смерть ворогам!!

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Sandydragon
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Re: Trump

Post by Sandydragon »

Digby wrote:
Sandydragon wrote:Looks like Biden will fall just short in Georgia.
My kingdom for a Zimmer frame
Actually he might not be. BBC was hinting that we was a bit behind with 99% of the vote counted, now Biden is about 18K behind with 5% of the vote remaining to be counted. Its still possible.
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Sandydragon
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Re: Trump

Post by Sandydragon »

Zhivago wrote:Kicking off a bit in Maricopa county Arizona.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... ction-call
Image

I'm no expert, but what gun is that - is that an AR-15? Can we tick that box now?
Quite possibly - so yes. Armed nutter at counting station can now be ticked.
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Puja
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Re: Trump

Post by Puja »

Sandydragon wrote:
Digby wrote:
Sandydragon wrote:Looks like Biden will fall just short in Georgia.
My kingdom for a Zimmer frame
Actually he might not be. BBC was hinting that we was a bit behind with 99% of the vote counted, now Biden is about 18K behind with 5% of the vote remaining to be counted. Its still possible.
He's gone from needing 69% of the remaining vote back when it was 85% counted, to needing 60% with 95% counted. It is definitely on.

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Re: Trump

Post by Zhivago »

Puja wrote:
Sandydragon wrote:
Digby wrote:
My kingdom for a Zimmer frame
Actually he might not be. BBC was hinting that we was a bit behind with 99% of the vote counted, now Biden is about 18K behind with 5% of the vote remaining to be counted. Its still possible.
He's gone from needing 69% of the remaining vote back when it was 85% counted, to needing 60% with 95% counted. It is definitely on.

Puja
That 60% figure looks to be true for N.Carolina and Pennsylvania too.

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Sandydragon
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Re: Trump

Post by Sandydragon »

Zhivago wrote:
Puja wrote:
Sandydragon wrote: Actually he might not be. BBC was hinting that we was a bit behind with 99% of the vote counted, now Biden is about 18K behind with 5% of the vote remaining to be counted. Its still possible.
He's gone from needing 69% of the remaining vote back when it was 85% counted, to needing 60% with 95% counted. It is definitely on.

Puja
That 60% figure looks to be true for N.Carolina and Pennsylvania too.

Definitely for N Carolina, I think PA is in a better position. BBC is reporting:

Trump 3215969
Biden 3051555

A majority of 164414 with 11% of the votes left to be counted. When the vote count was at 75%, Trumps lead was over a million. His lead is rapidly being eroded.
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Son of Mathonwy
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Re: Trump

Post by Son of Mathonwy »

Puja wrote:
Son of Mathonwy wrote:
Puja wrote:
I used the f-word in a post earlier, but I actually had to make myself use it - it's been such an established part of culture for so long that comparing an opponent to the Nazis is ridiculous hyperbole and a sign that you've lost the argument that it's hard to call something that is actively and completely fascist by its name.

Puja
Good to see that stuff described in abstract form, stripped of the particular (eg Nazi) party trappings. Quite a few boxes ticked in the UK . . . even more in Trump's USA.
That picture actually illustrates my point about "fascist" being a difficult word to use through its hyperbolic overuse - I found it on a blog from 2004, trying to crowbar that template onto Bush.

Gods, we didn't know we were born back then, did we? There wasn't even the Tea Party in those days. If you offered me 4 more years of W or 4 more years of Trump, I'd take your hand off at the wrist.

Puja
Trump is easily the worse of the two (as a human being) but 9/11 happened on GWB's watch unfortunately, so the fallout from W's presidency (the Iraq war, the War on Terror, Guantanamo) was even worse than from Trump's. (Or Trump's first 4 years :? )

But yeah, going forward to unknown future events, I agree: I'd prefer W to Trump.
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Re: Trump

Post by Digby »

Is the fallout from the Iraq war worse than Trump's affect on democracy, on the environment and the like?
paddy no 11
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Re: Trump

Post by paddy no 11 »

Son of Mathonwy wrote:
Puja wrote:
Son of Mathonwy wrote: Good to see that stuff described in abstract form, stripped of the particular (eg Nazi) party trappings. Quite a few boxes ticked in the UK . . . even more in Trump's USA.
That picture actually illustrates my point about "fascist" being a difficult word to use through its hyperbolic overuse - I found it on a blog from 2004, trying to crowbar that template onto Bush.

Gods, we didn't know we were born back then, did we? There wasn't even the Tea Party in those days. If you offered me 4 more years of W or 4 more years of Trump, I'd take your hand off at the wrist.

Puja
Trump is easily the worse of the two (as a human being) but 9/11 happened on GWB's watch unfortunately, so the fallout from W's presidency (the Iraq war, the War on Terror, Guantanamo) was even worse than from Trump's. (Or Trump's first 4 years :? )

But yeah, going forward to unknown future events, I agree: I'd prefer W to Trump.
W was nothing it was the monsters like Cheney, rumsfield etc that done the damage

America appears to be completely fucked no idea where it's going or how it rescues itself from this polarised position

With McConnell running things they will go nowhere
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Re: Trump

Post by Digby »

It's not completely messed up, listen the wise and actually rather calm and reasoned words of Paula White




You're almost reminded of Desmond Tutu
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Son of Mathonwy
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Re: Trump

Post by Son of Mathonwy »

Digby wrote:It's not completely messed up, listen the wise and actually rather calm and reasoned words of Paula White

You're almost reminded of Desmond Tutu
Surprised they need to get the lawyers involved with all those angels coming to help.
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Re: Trump

Post by Sandydragon »

Digby wrote:It's not completely messed up, listen the wise and actually rather calm and reasoned words of Paula White




You're almost reminded of Desmond Tutu
I saw that earlier. I think her relationship with sanity is a bit tenuous, although she is by no means the worst American preacher I've heard on that front.

I can't rationalise this belief amongst America's fundamental Christians that Trump is someone they should support. I can only assume that its a life long allegiance t the Republicans no matter who is their president or candidate.
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Stom
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Re: Trump

Post by Stom »

Sandydragon wrote:
Digby wrote:It's not completely messed up, listen the wise and actually rather calm and reasoned words of Paula White




You're almost reminded of Desmond Tutu
I saw that earlier. I think her relationship with sanity is a bit tenuous, although she is by no means the worst American preacher I've heard on that front.

I can't rationalise this belief amongst America's fundamental Christians that Trump is someone they should support. I can only assume that its a life long allegiance t the Republicans no matter who is their president or candidate.
It’s that he puts their deep held beliefs into the public domain and makes them feel acceptable. He’s encouraged America’s many racists to embrace their racism, their sexism, their bigotry, their homophobia, they’re trans phobia, the worst impulses of all these people is currently running their country.

It’s disgusting
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Re: Trump

Post by Digby »

Sandydragon wrote:
I can't rationalise this belief amongst America's fundamental Christians that Trump is someone they should support. I can only assume that its a life long allegiance t the Republicans no matter who is their president or candidate.
It's so much about having the freedom to not allow women a choice and ignoring/deploring science as that takes the place of god and banning people who don't look like and/or think like you, and if you've a bit of time left over advance prayer in school and intercessory prayer.
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Re: Trump

Post by Mikey Brown »

Trump being worse than Bush is insane. Trump is certainly more of a narcissistic twat, but while both were tools for greater evil to some degree Bush is responsible (with a helping hand from Joe Biden of course) for an absurd number of deaths.

Trump has certainly been useful for ramping up the culture war. But he’s essentially useless to the GOP now they have Bush’s lot in the courts isn’t he?

I can only imagine what the amalgamation of alt-right, Cheney legacy, Lincoln Project fuds and whatever Stephen Miller-esque figure is around at the time will come up with in 4-8 years.

Hopefully Biden’s mate McConnell will be dead by then at least.
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Re: Trump

Post by Digby »

How is Bush responsible for more deaths? Climate change is actually quite a serious thing even before we consider Covid
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Re: Trump

Post by Mikey Brown »

COVID and climate change don't happen if W was President right now?
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Sandydragon
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Re: Trump

Post by Sandydragon »

Mikey Brown wrote:Trump being worse than Bush is insane. Trump is certainly more of a narcissistic twat, but while both were tools for greater evil to some degree Bush is responsible (with a helping hand from Joe Biden of course) for an absurd number of deaths.

Trump has certainly been useful for ramping up the culture war. But he’s essentially useless to the GOP now they have Bush’s lot in the courts isn’t he?

I can only imagine what the amalgamation of alt-right, Cheney legacy, Lincoln Project fuds and whatever Stephen Miller-esque figure is around at the time will come up with in 4-8 years.

Hopefully Biden’s mate McConnell will be dead by then at least.
How would Trump have reacted to 9/11?

Its an interesting discussion on who is the worst, but given that no one has attacked the US during Trumps presidency then its difficult to compare like for like. You can say that Bush's reaction to Hurricane Katrina was awful and is at least comparable with Trumps handling of covid.

FWIW, I don't think Trump would have been so fixated on Iraq and Bush Jnr was, but I do believe that he would have responded against ISIS and AQ in Afghanistan. I don't think any US president would have ignored 9/11.
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Re: RE: Re: Trump

Post by WaspInWales »

Digby wrote:It's not completely messed up, listen the wise and actually rather calm and reasoned words of Paula White




You're almost reminded of Desmond Tutu
Worst rap ever! [emoji23]

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Re: Trump

Post by Puja »

Mikey Brown wrote:Trump being worse than Bush is insane. Trump is certainly more of a narcissistic twat, but while both were tools for greater evil to some degree Bush is responsible (with a helping hand from Joe Biden of course) for an absurd number of deaths.

Trump has certainly been useful for ramping up the culture war. But he’s essentially useless to the GOP now they have Bush’s lot in the courts isn’t he?

I can only imagine what the amalgamation of alt-right, Cheney legacy, Lincoln Project fuds and whatever Stephen Miller-esque figure is around at the time will come up with in 4-8 years.

Hopefully Biden’s mate McConnell will be dead by then at least.
Bush waged a wholly unnecessary war, but he's hardly the only US President to have done that. Trump has broken the Presidency by refusing to obey any of the norms - wholeheartedly adopted fascism, lied consistently and continually, propagandised, actively and brazenly enriched himself and his family, appointed blatently unqualified friends and family to key government positions and rousted out qualified people on the basis that they weren't personally loyal to his brand, used foreign policy and presidential pressure as a weapon to improve his chances of re-election and sought help from foreign powers, cast aspersions on the very functioning of US democracy itself, used tear gas and National guard on legal peaceful protestors for a photo-op, sicced armed mobs on a legally elected governor that he didn't like, abused Presidential immunity to evade lawsuits and criminal investigations of him and his businesses - I could go on, but I really don't want to cause it's depressing enough.

If Bush had lost to Kerry, would there have been even the slightest suggestion that there might not have been a peaceful transfer of power? Would anyone have thought that Bush might say, "We'll see," when asked if he'd accept election results? Trump has broken the office of the President and, now the precedents have been set, I'm not sure if it can be fixed.

Sadly, I think the 2024 candidate will be Trump Jnr. He's been auditioning for it for the past couple of years and he's won the support of the MAGA crowd.

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