RugbyRebels

He went well and, until now, I am *not* a fan of him playing anywhere outside the 2nd row. That said, the backrow struggled massively for the first half and wasn't exactly majestic in the second. Not difficult to shine there. If that sounds damning with faint praise then good, because that's what I intend.

To answer your question, he isn't a 6, wont ever he a 6, but he can still operate in the CGS role very well. It worked at 6 today in a misfiring backrow.

Puja wrote:

padprop wrote:So... Lawes at 6 eh?

I missed the game, but I hear it was forwards dominated. Was he actually a good international 6 or was it just useful to have a third lock out there today?

Puja

Of the three locks out there he was one of the two that looked off the pace to the point of looking like he was in a pre season game in the first half. Exceptional second half but his lack of mobility was covered by 7 and 8 covering the park so Lawes could hit things in the tight. AWJ was the other lock off the pace in the first half who turned up well in the second.

Lawes looks more like a lock that can play 6 than a 6. Against a big pack that wants to show their physicality it works. Against a more mobile side that wants to attack coast to coast probably not.

Itoje was head and shoulders above the other Lions players.

Agree with that. For the opposition, Lawes at 6 worked. Generally i'd play him at lock but he does offer a viable option at 6 in the right circumstances and with the right blend around him.
Itoje was excellent.

padprop wrote:So... Lawes at 6 eh?

Went well. Pleased for him, even if not a fan of him at 6. Others above make excellent points. LIke the best Lions performances in the pro era, it was a horses for courses selection, rather than the 'fans pick' view.

The Lions have almost no means of attack other than waiting for SA to concede pens in open play and at the scrum (though that holds for SA too in fairness) so it depends if you want attack as part of your thinking in how to compete. SA do give some chances down their shoreside, especially off the scrum, but if you've got Lawes at 6 you're giving up some chance to even exploit that because SA will break hard off the shortside of their scrum and Lawes will break like a lock

Lawes isn't without positives at 6, but there are lots of negatives too, and by heavens it's dull to watch

Digby wrote:The Lions have almost no means of attack other than waiting for SA to concede pens in open play and at the scrum (though that holds for SA too in fairness) so it depends if you want attack as part of your thinking in how to compete. SA do give some chances down their shoreside, especially off the scrum, but if you've got Lawes at 6 you're giving up some chance to even exploit that because SA will break hard off the shortside of their scrum and Lawes will break like a lock

Lawes isn't without positives at 6, but there are lots of negatives too, and by heavens it's dull to watch

Not if you are vested in the Lions; you clearly aren't, so not really sure why you even bother to watch. Assume you mean shortside, unless you are saying SA are all a sea.

Lawes didn't do much but take lineouts in the first half. Not rewatched the 2nd yet, but no idea how he got motm (he did right?) over Itoje.

Itoje was motm in my recollection.

Raggs wrote:Lawes didn't do much but take lineouts in the first half. Not rewatched the 2nd yet, but no idea how he got motm (he did right?) over Itoje.

Agreed. But he did the job he was asked to do pretty well. The raw stats show Lawes making the most tackles and most metres in the Lions pack- not high numbers tbh because of the nature of the game; he was more prominent than I’ve seen him at 6, he was picked to do the stuff he is good at, and did it; his carrying has markedly improved in the last couple of years. Still think he’s best at lock.

Mr Mwenda wrote:Itoje was motm in my recollection.

I was rather drunk by the time the game finished, hence the rewatch.

Banquo wrote:

Raggs wrote:Lawes didn't do much but take lineouts in the first half. Not rewatched the 2nd yet, but no idea how he got motm (he did right?) over Itoje.

Agreed. But he did the job he was asked to do pretty well. The raw stats show Lawes making the most tackles and most metres in the Lions pack- not high numbers tbh because of the nature of the game; he was more prominent than I’ve seen him at 6, he was picked to do the stuff he is good at, and did it; his carrying has markedly improved in the last couple of years. Still think he’s best at lock.

He's definitely improving at 6, but I still think Beirne could be the better option there to start.

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:The Lions have almost no means of attack other than waiting for SA to concede pens in open play and at the scrum (though that holds for SA too in fairness) so it depends if you want attack as part of your thinking in how to compete. SA do give some chances down their shoreside, especially off the scrum, but if you've got Lawes at 6 you're giving up some chance to even exploit that because SA will break hard off the shortside of their scrum and Lawes will break like a lock

Lawes isn't without positives at 6, but there are lots of negatives too, and by heavens it's dull to watch

Not if you are vested in the Lions; you clearly aren't, so not really sure why you even bother to watch. Assume you mean shortside, unless you are saying SA are all a sea.

Ah, caught one autocorrect, should've considered I'd repeat myself within so few words, ignoring my own history there.

And Lawes being dull to watch was a general comment with him at 6, it applies to club, country and the jamboree, less so club in fairness. Granted I watch with a bias of wanting to see good (and frankly open) attack, I'm not actually bored by defence or the breakdown, I can even accept defence coming out on top with good grace, but SA and the Lions don't even try to attack which is going to piss me off as a constant. It's sort of understandable for Gats, the idea of throwing a scratch attack against Nienaber's defence is pretty pie in the sky thinking, but if you don't have a dream...

Raggs wrote:

Mr Mwenda wrote:Itoje was motm in my recollection.

I was rather drunk by the time the game finished, hence the rewatch.

Banquo wrote:

Raggs wrote:Lawes didn't do much but take lineouts in the first half. Not rewatched the 2nd yet, but no idea how he got motm (he did right?) over Itoje.

Agreed. But he did the job he was asked to do pretty well. The raw stats show Lawes making the most tackles and most metres in the Lions pack- not high numbers tbh because of the nature of the game; he was more prominent than I’ve seen him at 6, he was picked to do the stuff he is good at, and did it; his carrying has markedly improved in the last couple of years. Still think he’s best at lock.

He's definitely improving at 6, but I still think Beirne could be the better option there to start.

Oh I agree, and said so at the time. Lawes does offer the big tackle and probably a bit more in the lineout, but Beirne has looked top notch.

I too was drunk

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:The Lions have almost no means of attack other than waiting for SA to concede pens in open play and at the scrum (though that holds for SA too in fairness) so it depends if you want attack as part of your thinking in how to compete. SA do give some chances down their shoreside, especially off the scrum, but if you've got Lawes at 6 you're giving up some chance to even exploit that because SA will break hard off the shortside of their scrum and Lawes will break like a lock

Lawes isn't without positives at 6, but there are lots of negatives too, and by heavens it's dull to watch

Not if you are vested in the Lions; you clearly aren't, so not really sure why you even bother to watch. Assume you mean shortside, unless you are saying SA are all a sea.

Ah, caught one autocorrect, should've considered I'd repeat myself within so few words, ignoring my own history there.

And Lawes being dull to watch was a general comment with him at 6, it applies to club, country and the jamboree, less so club in fairness. Granted I watch with a bias of wanting to see good (and frankly open) attack, I'm not actually bored by defence or the breakdown, I can even accept defence coming out on top with good grace, but SA and the Lions don't even try to attack which is going to piss me off as a constant. It's sort of understandable for Gats, the idea of throwing a scratch attack against Nienaber's defence is pretty pie in the sky thinking, but if you don't have a dream...

I did take it to mean a commentary on the Lions, and the game; I also suffer quite a lot of boredom if watching a club match (say) where I'm not concerned over the outcome. But when you are a Lions fan, the contest is intrinsically exciting, imo.....and the outcome is important in sport, even if as a coach I was looking for performance as the route to a win.

Even Itoje walked a fine margin, a couple of his big plays would on another day have been penalties and some of the consistent jibes would have resurfaced. Tough game for Berry with so many possible infringements and almost no rugby breaking out as it was.

The look on Itoje’s face as he won that first turnover (I think) on the line was, to me, “I know I’m getting a yellow card for this but it’s probably worth it”. I was pleasantly surprised with the outcome and I felt he was too.

It was nice to see Lawes have a big impact (in the second half at least) as a test 6. I assume basically all his metres came from that slightly bizarre break from a loose ball in the second half. I’m possibly just criticising his running style for no real reason, but in my head he was just kind of stumbling his way through like a drunken bambi.

That’s exactly the kind of position you want Beirne, but I’m not sure we’re so interested in having the game break up like that, and Lawes does well as a very close-quarters 6 (a lock).

It will be very interesting to see what his future in an England shirt looks like if he continues to demand the 6 shirt for the series. There’s so many (potentially) good backrows lining up I’m not sure many had pictured Lawes being a fixture there, but I don’t imagine Eddie would need much convincing.

Age isn't on his side tbh, though going through an indian summer.

half Indian, half Atlantic

True. It would also be a mistake to play him in the back row when (with Kruis absent) he’s easily our next best lock after Itoje.

Lawes at lock and pretty much any of our back row options (apart from Ludlow) at 6 is far superior to Lawes at 6 and Ewels or another average lock pattering Itoje.

Hang on - when did Launchbury retire?

Which Tyler wrote:Hang on - when did Launchbury retire?

Come on now Which, everyone knows that Launchbury and Itoje can't play together [/tongue-in-cheek].

Puja

I’m a huge fan of Launchbury, but I think Lawes has had a slightly better England (and Lions) career and I would still regard Kruis as the best partner for Itoje if/when he is available.

Either way, it’s a moot point as Launchbury is injured and I doubt he’ll be available for the AIs or the 6Ns, so for at least the next 8 England games, I’d rather Lawes in the row with a specialist flanker at 6.

For me Launch is the more talented player, but has been slowed by injuries. It feels like Lawes has grown in to his role much better as he’s aged though. He’s certainly ahead at this point.

It’s tough. Any point where Lawes and Launch are actually both fit and available is a win though. Neither quite fill the Kruis role alongside Itoje, but for me Launch is a slightly better fit in that sense.

I think Lawes might be the better for alongside Itoje if not as good as Kruis in that regard, and that Launchbury is a better player than Lawes or Kruis

The irony being that for all his undoubted qualities Launch is no more than average at test level in the air- lineout & restarts- thus making Lawes to play alongside him at 6 much more appealing.

Digby wrote:I think Lawes might be the better for alongside Itoje if not as good as Kruis in that regard, and that Launchbury is a better player than Lawes or Kruis

Yep. I agree with that. Launchbury is individually a better player than Kruis and Lawes (although not much in it IMO). However, as a second row partner for Itoje, he’s behind both and for England that partnership is critical.