RugbyRebels

Indeed - although I care a great deal more about 2023 than 2024.

Slade never changes - he’s equally capable of the sublime and the ridiculous and often in the same game. Even Rob Baxter called it out as a microcosm of Exeter’s season after the first couple of games.

Joe Marchant please.

Odogwu in 13 please. Just for the poops and giggles .

Randall, Smith, Radwan, Manu (find me another 12?), Odogwu, Joe C, Malins.

All fire and fury, with a touch of guile.

Just the thought of a match day squad including Farrell with a fit Ford sat at home makes me cry.

Mellsblue wrote:Just the thought of a match day squad including Farrell with a fit Ford sat at home makes me cry.

I shed a tear at the thought of Smith at 10 with Farrell at 12. I just don't see how Smith can truly be himself at FH, with Farrell at IC, if Ford could not.

Oakboy wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:Just the thought of a match day squad including Farrell with a fit Ford sat at home makes me cry.

I shed a tear at the thought of Smith at 10 with Farrell at 12. I just don't see how Smith can truly be himself at FH, with Farrell at IC, if Ford could not.

Who knows how Gleason pictures things running in attack though. I share the fear that Farrell will still essentially be the front-man in terms of shaping the attack, but we don't really know. I do think Farrell is capable of complimenting Smith at 12, but we'll see. Hopefully Smith's appearance(s) won't mimic Cipriani's in 2018, but who knows why (or for how long) we're really trying to replace Ford.*

He's not going to play like Esterhuizen but he's shown more ability in contact than I thought he had. Actually if he showed the same physicality when he had the ball as when he smashed Esterhuizen a few years back that'd be nice.

I'm equally keen to see how we plan to use those outside of the 10/12 axis. If it's Slade and Daly as playmakers 3 and 4 then I'm not hopeful.

*Just happened to read this from renowned analyst Harry Wells and seemed relevant, "On Ford, he added: "There's no-one else I've played with that has the ability to control the game like he does, or has the knowledge to direct the boys." Though he's presumably never had the chance to play alongside the true God-King.

Mikey Brown wrote:

Oakboy wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:Just the thought of a match day squad including Farrell with a fit Ford sat at home makes me cry.

I shed a tear at the thought of Smith at 10 with Farrell at 12. I just don't see how Smith can truly be himself at FH, with Farrell at IC, if Ford could not.

Who knows how Gleason pictures things running in attack though. I share the fear that Farrell will still essentially be the front-man in terms of shaping the attack, but we don't really know. I do think Farrell is capable of complimenting Smith at 12, but we'll see. Hopefully Smith's appearance(s) won't mimic Cipriani's in 2018, but who knows why (or for how long) we're really trying to replace Ford.*

He's not going to play like Esterhuizen but he's shown more ability in contact than I thought he had. Actually if he showed the same physicality when he had the ball as when he smashed Esterhuizen a few years back that'd be nice.

I'm equally keen to see how we plan to use those outside of the 10/12 axis. If it's Slade and Daly as playmakers 3 and 4 then I'm not hopeful.

*Just happened to read this from renowned analyst Harry Wells and seemed relevant, "On Ford, he added: "There's no-one else I've played with that has the ability to control the game like he does, or has the knowledge to direct the boys." Though he's presumably never had the chance to play alongside the true God-King.

I’m not quite sure whether he was at Bedford when Twelvetrees was there but you’re probably right. Ah no, wait, you’re taking about Farrell.

Mikey Brown wrote:

Oakboy wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:Just the thought of a match day squad including Farrell with a fit Ford sat at home makes me cry.

I shed a tear at the thought of Smith at 10 with Farrell at 12. I just don't see how Smith can truly be himself at FH, with Farrell at IC, if Ford could not.

Who knows how Gleason pictures things running in attack though. I share the fear that Farrell will still essentially be the front-man in terms of shaping the attack, but we don't really know. I do think Farrell is capable of complimenting Smith at 12, but we'll see. Hopefully Smith's appearance(s) won't mimic Cipriani's in 2018, but who knows why (or for how long) we're really trying to replace Ford.*

He's not going to play like Esterhuizen but he's shown more ability in contact than I thought he had. Actually if he showed the same physicality when he had the ball as when he smashed Esterhuizen a few years back that'd be nice.

I'm equally keen to see how we plan to use those outside of the 10/12 axis. If it's Slade and Daly as playmakers 3 and 4 then I'm not hopeful.

*Just happened to read this from renowned analyst Harry Wells and seemed relevant, "On Ford, he added: "There's no-one else I've played with that has the ability to control the game like he does, or has the knowledge to direct the boys." Though he's presumably never had the chance to play alongside the true God-King.

Agreed - I'm actually more worried about Slade at 13 than I am about Farrell at 12.

Puja


ETA. Although I agree with the sentiment, being the best 10 Wells has ever played with is damning with faint praise, given Wells has only ever played for Leicester. I think his options are Ford, Burns, McPhillips, Henry, Bonilla, Hardwick, and Umaga.

Puja wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:

Oakboy wrote:
I shed a tear at the thought of Smith at 10 with Farrell at 12. I just don't see how Smith can truly be himself at FH, with Farrell at IC, if Ford could not.

Who knows how Gleason pictures things running in attack though. I share the fear that Farrell will still essentially be the front-man in terms of shaping the attack, but we don't really know. I do think Farrell is capable of complimenting Smith at 12, but we'll see. Hopefully Smith's appearance(s) won't mimic Cipriani's in 2018, but who knows why (or for how long) we're really trying to replace Ford.*

He's not going to play like Esterhuizen but he's shown more ability in contact than I thought he had. Actually if he showed the same physicality when he had the ball as when he smashed Esterhuizen a few years back that'd be nice.

I'm equally keen to see how we plan to use those outside of the 10/12 axis. If it's Slade and Daly as playmakers 3 and 4 then I'm not hopeful.

*Just happened to read this from renowned analyst Harry Wells and seemed relevant, "On Ford, he added: "There's no-one else I've played with that has the ability to control the game like he does, or has the knowledge to direct the boys." Though he's presumably never had the chance to play alongside the true God-King.

Agreed - I'm actually more worried about Slade at 13 than I am about Farrell at 12.

Puja


ETA. Although I agree with the sentiment, being the best 10 Wells has ever played with is damning with faint praise, given Wells has only ever played for Leicester. I think his options are Ford, Burns, McPhillips, Henry, Bonilla, Hardwick, and Umaga.

Wells played for England in the summer with Smith and Furbank at 10. Won the Junior World Cup with England in 2013 with Slade and Devoto as the flybalfs.

FKAS wrote:

Puja wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:
Who knows how Gleason pictures things running in attack though. I share the fear that Farrell will still essentially be the front-man in terms of shaping the attack, but we don't really know. I do think Farrell is capable of complimenting Smith at 12, but we'll see. Hopefully Smith's appearance(s) won't mimic Cipriani's in 2018, but who knows why (or for how long) we're really trying to replace Ford.*

He's not going to play like Esterhuizen but he's shown more ability in contact than I thought he had. Actually if he showed the same physicality when he had the ball as when he smashed Esterhuizen a few years back that'd be nice.

I'm equally keen to see how we plan to use those outside of the 10/12 axis. If it's Slade and Daly as playmakers 3 and 4 then I'm not hopeful.

*Just happened to read this from renowned analyst Harry Wells and seemed relevant, "On Ford, he added: "There's no-one else I've played with that has the ability to control the game like he does, or has the knowledge to direct the boys." Though he's presumably never had the chance to play alongside the true God-King.

Agreed - I'm actually more worried about Slade at 13 than I am about Farrell at 12.

Puja


ETA. Although I agree with the sentiment, being the best 10 Wells has ever played with is damning with faint praise, given Wells has only ever played for Leicester. I think his options are Ford, Burns, McPhillips, Henry, Bonilla, Hardwick, and Umaga.

Wells played for England in the summer with Smith and Furbank at 10. Won the Junior World Cup with England in 2013 with Slade and Devoto as the flybalfs.

Not that this is remotely the point, but Wells only played the second test in the summer, at which point Smith had gone off to the Lions, so he got Umaga again.

Puja

Puja wrote:

FKAS wrote:

Puja wrote:
Agreed - I'm actually more worried about Slade at 13 than I am about Farrell at 12.

Puja


ETA. Although I agree with the sentiment, being the best 10 Wells has ever played with is damning with faint praise, given Wells has only ever played for Leicester. I think his options are Ford, Burns, McPhillips, Henry, Bonilla, Hardwick, and Umaga.

Wells played for England in the summer with Smith and Furbank at 10. Won the Junior World Cup with England in 2013 with Slade and Devoto as the flybalfs.

Not that this is remotely the point, but Wells only played the second test in the summer, at which point Smith had gone off to the Lions, so he got Umaga again.

Puja

England Team Vs Canada
Forwards

1 Ellis Genge
2 Jamie Blamire
3 Joe Heyes
4 Harry Wells
5 Charlie Ewels
6 Lewis Ludlow (Captain)
7 Sam Underhill
8 Alex Dombrandt
Backs

9 Harry Randall
10 Marcus Smith
11 Adam Radwan
12 Dan Kelly
13 Henry Slade
14 Joe Cokanasiga
15 Freddie Steward
Replacements

16 Curtis Langdon
17 Beno Obano
18 Paul Hill
19 Callum Chick
20 Lewis Ludlam
21 Dan Robson
22 George Furbank
23 Joe Marchant

Smith came off into the second half to be told he'd been selected for the Lions. He played the first test as well when Umaga came on at centre with both Malins and Lawrence going off injured. Having shown an aversion to tackling in the first test Umaga was dropped for the second.

FKAS wrote:

Puja wrote:

FKAS wrote:
Wells played for England in the summer with Smith and Furbank at 10. Won the Junior World Cup with England in 2013 with Slade and Devoto as the flybalfs.

Not that this is remotely the point, but Wells only played the second test in the summer, at which point Smith had gone off to the Lions, so he got Umaga again.

Puja

England Team Vs Canada
Forwards

1 Ellis Genge
2 Jamie Blamire
3 Joe Heyes
4 Harry Wells
5 Charlie Ewels
6 Lewis Ludlow (Captain)
7 Sam Underhill
8 Alex Dombrandt
Backs

9 Harry Randall
10 Marcus Smith
11 Adam Radwan
12 Dan Kelly
13 Henry Slade
14 Joe Cokanasiga
15 Freddie Steward
Replacements

16 Curtis Langdon
17 Beno Obano
18 Paul Hill
19 Callum Chick
20 Lewis Ludlam
21 Dan Robson
22 George Furbank
23 Joe Marchant

Smith came off into the second half to be told he'd been selected for the Lions. He played the first test as well when Umaga came on at centre with both Malins and Lawrence going off injured. Having shown an aversion to tackling in the first test Umaga was dropped for the second.

I stand corrected!

Puja

Poor old Will Hooley. Not a single mention.

Question for the hivemind: has Lawrence ever actually produced the goods? I know it's hard in a rubbish Wuss side, but I've never seen him play a game where I've thought "Wow, that player's really something." He just seems to have gone from 'having great promise' to 'being an EPS regular' without ever having reached the step of excelling in the Prem.

Have I missed/forgotten some great run of form where he's kicked on?

Puja

Unfortunately have to agree about Lawrence. Clearly has all the tools but how many England centres have had that on paper in the last 20 years? He can run some unbelievable lines and has the power and pace to get through small holes and his actual tackling is very good. However his brain fades are just too often, case in point when he pulled out of the gang tackle on Harry Potter this weekend and just let him under the sticks.

Really want him to do well, but the more england chances he gets the more it seems he just won't be able to make the step up.

It looks like Faf is out for a while injured so quirke should get a serious run of games. It's so interesting how players can shoot up the pecking order due circumstances.

Pleased for,the lad, he looks a good un. Hope it's not a case of too much too soon.

Puja wrote:Question for the hivemind: has Lawrence ever actually produced the goods? I know it's hard in a rubbish Wuss side, but I've never seen him play a game where I've thought "Wow, that player's really something." He just seems to have gone from 'having great promise' to 'being an EPS regular' without ever having reached the step of excelling in the Prem.

Have I missed/forgotten some great run of form where he's kicked on?

Puja

I've seen him have moments in games where you go "that's a good carry" but he seems to drift in and out of games quite a bit. I don't really like to say it but he needs to leave Wuss. There's no one pushing him on there and his career is going to middle out into mediocrity if something doesn't change. Not sure who'd be looking for a centre; Falcons maybe too small an upgrade, Bristol potentially or possibly Saints if they were to lose one of theirs.

I think one of the reasons Lawrence has or had people so excited is that he was the first really big carrying centre to emerge through the club academies and England age groups since Manu; in recent years English centres have tended to basically be converted fly halves like Slade or Redpath, or runners in the 13 channel, like Joseph, Marchant or Tompkins. There's the odd hybrid sort who have a bit of all three to them - Lozowski, Devoto and Hill come to mind - but none where explosive power was their MO to the same degree. I think that personally his development has been set back a little by England and how they were playing in the Autumn Nations Cup and the 6N; some people have suggested, quite fairly IMO, he needed to involve himself more and that is something he needs to work on but it wasn't as if he was ever even given the ball to truck up into traffic! Youngs and Ford tended to shovel it to the forwards for a few phases and then hoof the ball away, and it's so difficult as a young player to stamp yourself on the game plan and tactics, especially when England have so many strong voices in that regard. I'd put him in the same camp as Earl, Malins, Furbank and Marchant: a hugely talented young player who's not really had a chance to fully express themselves in a white shirt, at least not yet. It'd be silly for Eddie to write him off, especially with Manu's fitness woes liable to reappear at any point.

Lawrence is a genuinely exciting international potential talent, but I do think he was picked for England too early. Got to remember he has only just turned 22. As mentioned above, his best bet for accelerating his development would probably be to leave Wuss unfortunately.

Timbo wrote:Lawrence is a genuinely exciting international potential talent, but I do think he was picked for England too early. Got to remember he has only just turned 22. As mentioned above, his best bet for accelerating his development would probably be to leave Wuss unfortunately.

It seems to happen quite frequently that a promising player comes along, doesn't fully deliver, then I feel they've kind of missed the boat or just been over-hyped.

Then I find out they're only 22 and they've just been talked up on here for what feels like an age.

We're so utterly desperate to find a Manu replacement that I think the expectation put on him was ridiculous. The way we did(n't) use him vs Scotland and how he was ditched afterwards, I mean I thought it was poor management at the time when I believed he was 25/26.

I still feel like Devoto could have been a quite good, if not astounding, 12 for us the last few years - potentially solving quite a few issues simply by being able to both move the ball and to crash it up.

SDHoneymonster wrote:if he was ever even given the ball to truck up into traffic! Youngs and Ford tended to shovel it to the forwards for a few phases and then hoof the ball away

I don't think Lawrence ever played with Ford. Wasn't he named in the midfield when Farrell was at 10 and when Ford came in it was Lawrence that made way? It meant that Farrell used Lawrence like he used to use Barritt if he did at all. Which was a waste. Maybe if he'd played with Ford our backline might have worked.

The England attack has all through the Jones era worked on the premise that if you can't generate quick ball from a couple of phases in the middle of the pitch you kick and apply pressure then look to force an error or counter off the kick back. It's a minimum risk approach but despite prior success fell flat on its face when Jones insisted on picking a centre combo with all the penetration potential of a flacid penis. Wasn't just the fault of the midfield, Daly's inability to catch under pressure and the forward's lack of discipline hampered things as well.

I figured Malins on the wing was just a stop-gap for Sarries, but is he really worth a go there for England just to get him in the side? He seems such a natural footballer. A bit of JSD about him?

Mikey Brown wrote:I figured Malins on the wing was just a stop-gap for Sarries, but is he really worth a go there for England just to get him in the side? He seems such a natural footballer. A bit of JSD about him?

I think Malins is definitely a live option on the left wing. Johnny May has looked really sharp the last couple of weeks, best I’ve seen him for a while, and I’d have him on the right with Steward at fullback.

Mikey Brown wrote:I figured Malins on the wing was just a stop-gap for Sarries, but is he really worth a go there for England just to get him in the side? He seems such a natural footballer. A bit of JSD about him?

Yep. Eddie has always like the idea of a ‘roaming’ winger and Malins is ideal for that role. Watson’s injury is unfortunate, but gives Malins an opportunity to build experience in that position without limiting Steward’s game time at 15.

That said, if Malins played 15 and Radwan played at 14, I wouldn’t be too disappointed either.

Effectively, we have three really exciting players looking to fill two shirts, which isn’t the worst problem to have.