RugbyRebels

Zhivago wrote:Kicking off a bit in Maricopa county Arizona.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... ction-call


I'm no expert, but what gun is that - is that an AR-15? Can we tick that box now?

Quite possibly - so yes. Armed nutter at counting station can now be ticked.

Sandydragon wrote:

Digby wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:Looks like Biden will fall just short in Georgia.

My kingdom for a Zimmer frame

Actually he might not be. BBC was hinting that we was a bit behind with 99% of the vote counted, now Biden is about 18K behind with 5% of the vote remaining to be counted. Its still possible.

He's gone from needing 69% of the remaining vote back when it was 85% counted, to needing 60% with 95% counted. It is definitely on.

Puja

Puja wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

Digby wrote:
My kingdom for a Zimmer frame

Actually he might not be. BBC was hinting that we was a bit behind with 99% of the vote counted, now Biden is about 18K behind with 5% of the vote remaining to be counted. Its still possible.

He's gone from needing 69% of the remaining vote back when it was 85% counted, to needing 60% with 95% counted. It is definitely on.

Puja

That 60% figure looks to be true for N.Carolina and Pennsylvania too.

Zhivago wrote:

Puja wrote:

Sandydragon wrote: Actually he might not be. BBC was hinting that we was a bit behind with 99% of the vote counted, now Biden is about 18K behind with 5% of the vote remaining to be counted. Its still possible.

He's gone from needing 69% of the remaining vote back when it was 85% counted, to needing 60% with 95% counted. It is definitely on.

Puja

That 60% figure looks to be true for N.Carolina and Pennsylvania too.

Definitely for N Carolina, I think PA is in a better position. BBC is reporting:

Trump 3215969
Biden 3051555

A majority of 164414 with 11% of the votes left to be counted. When the vote count was at 75%, Trumps lead was over a million. His lead is rapidly being eroded.

Puja wrote:

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Puja wrote:
I used the f-word in a post earlier, but I actually had to make myself use it - it's been such an established part of culture for so long that comparing an opponent to the Nazis is ridiculous hyperbole and a sign that you've lost the argument that it's hard to call something that is actively and completely fascist by its name.

Puja

Good to see that stuff described in abstract form, stripped of the particular (eg Nazi) party trappings. Quite a few boxes ticked in the UK . . . even more in Trump's USA.

That picture actually illustrates my point about "fascist" being a difficult word to use through its hyperbolic overuse - I found it on a blog from 2004, trying to crowbar that template onto Bush.

Gods, we didn't know we were born back then, did we? There wasn't even the Tea Party in those days. If you offered me 4 more years of W or 4 more years of Trump, I'd take your hand off at the wrist.

Puja

Trump is easily the worse of the two (as a human being) but 9/11 happened on GWB's watch unfortunately, so the fallout from W's presidency (the Iraq war, the War on Terror, Guantanamo) was even worse than from Trump's. (Or Trump's first 4 years )

But yeah, going forward to unknown future events, I agree: I'd prefer W to Trump.

Is the fallout from the Iraq war worse than Trump's affect on democracy, on the environment and the like?

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Puja wrote:

Son of Mathonwy wrote: Good to see that stuff described in abstract form, stripped of the particular (eg Nazi) party trappings. Quite a few boxes ticked in the UK . . . even more in Trump's USA.

That picture actually illustrates my point about "fascist" being a difficult word to use through its hyperbolic overuse - I found it on a blog from 2004, trying to crowbar that template onto Bush.

Gods, we didn't know we were born back then, did we? There wasn't even the Tea Party in those days. If you offered me 4 more years of W or 4 more years of Trump, I'd take your hand off at the wrist.

Puja

Trump is easily the worse of the two (as a human being) but 9/11 happened on GWB's watch unfortunately, so the fallout from W's presidency (the Iraq war, the War on Terror, Guantanamo) was even worse than from Trump's. (Or Trump's first 4 years )

But yeah, going forward to unknown future events, I agree: I'd prefer W to Trump.

W was nothing it was the monsters like Cheney, rumsfield etc that done the damage

America appears to be completely fucked no idea where it's going or how it rescues itself from this polarised position

With McConnell running things they will go nowhere

It's not completely messed up, listen the wise and actually rather calm and reasoned words of Paula White




You're almost reminded of Desmond Tutu

Digby wrote:It's not completely messed up, listen the wise and actually rather calm and reasoned words of Paula White

You're almost reminded of Desmond Tutu

Surprised they need to get the lawyers involved with all those angels coming to help.

Digby wrote:It's not completely messed up, listen the wise and actually rather calm and reasoned words of Paula White




You're almost reminded of Desmond Tutu

I saw that earlier. I think her relationship with sanity is a bit tenuous, although she is by no means the worst American preacher I've heard on that front.

I can't rationalise this belief amongst America's fundamental Christians that Trump is someone they should support. I can only assume that its a life long allegiance t the Republicans no matter who is their president or candidate.

Sandydragon wrote:

Digby wrote:It's not completely messed up, listen the wise and actually rather calm and reasoned words of Paula White




You're almost reminded of Desmond Tutu

I saw that earlier. I think her relationship with sanity is a bit tenuous, although she is by no means the worst American preacher I've heard on that front.

I can't rationalise this belief amongst America's fundamental Christians that Trump is someone they should support. I can only assume that its a life long allegiance t the Republicans no matter who is their president or candidate.

It’s that he puts their deep held beliefs into the public domain and makes them feel acceptable. He’s encouraged America’s many racists to embrace their racism, their sexism, their bigotry, their homophobia, they’re trans phobia, the worst impulses of all these people is currently running their country.

It’s disgusting

Sandydragon wrote:
I can't rationalise this belief amongst America's fundamental Christians that Trump is someone they should support. I can only assume that its a life long allegiance t the Republicans no matter who is their president or candidate.

It's so much about having the freedom to not allow women a choice and ignoring/deploring science as that takes the place of god and banning people who don't look like and/or think like you, and if you've a bit of time left over advance prayer in school and intercessory prayer.

Trump being worse than Bush is insane. Trump is certainly more of a narcissistic twat, but while both were tools for greater evil to some degree Bush is responsible (with a helping hand from Joe Biden of course) for an absurd number of deaths.

Trump has certainly been useful for ramping up the culture war. But he’s essentially useless to the GOP now they have Bush’s lot in the courts isn’t he?

I can only imagine what the amalgamation of alt-right, Cheney legacy, Lincoln Project fuds and whatever Stephen Miller-esque figure is around at the time will come up with in 4-8 years.

Hopefully Biden’s mate McConnell will be dead by then at least.

How is Bush responsible for more deaths? Climate change is actually quite a serious thing even before we consider Covid

COVID and climate change don't happen if W was President right now?

Mikey Brown wrote:Trump being worse than Bush is insane. Trump is certainly more of a narcissistic twat, but while both were tools for greater evil to some degree Bush is responsible (with a helping hand from Joe Biden of course) for an absurd number of deaths.

Trump has certainly been useful for ramping up the culture war. But he’s essentially useless to the GOP now they have Bush’s lot in the courts isn’t he?

I can only imagine what the amalgamation of alt-right, Cheney legacy, Lincoln Project fuds and whatever Stephen Miller-esque figure is around at the time will come up with in 4-8 years.

Hopefully Biden’s mate McConnell will be dead by then at least.

How would Trump have reacted to 9/11?

Its an interesting discussion on who is the worst, but given that no one has attacked the US during Trumps presidency then its difficult to compare like for like. You can say that Bush's reaction to Hurricane Katrina was awful and is at least comparable with Trumps handling of covid.

FWIW, I don't think Trump would have been so fixated on Iraq and Bush Jnr was, but I do believe that he would have responded against ISIS and AQ in Afghanistan. I don't think any US president would have ignored 9/11.

Digby wrote:It's not completely messed up, listen the wise and actually rather calm and reasoned words of Paula White




You're almost reminded of Desmond Tutu

Worst rap ever! [emoji23]

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

Mikey Brown wrote:Trump being worse than Bush is insane. Trump is certainly more of a narcissistic twat, but while both were tools for greater evil to some degree Bush is responsible (with a helping hand from Joe Biden of course) for an absurd number of deaths.

Trump has certainly been useful for ramping up the culture war. But he’s essentially useless to the GOP now they have Bush’s lot in the courts isn’t he?

I can only imagine what the amalgamation of alt-right, Cheney legacy, Lincoln Project fuds and whatever Stephen Miller-esque figure is around at the time will come up with in 4-8 years.

Hopefully Biden’s mate McConnell will be dead by then at least.

Bush waged a wholly unnecessary war, but he's hardly the only US President to have done that. Trump has broken the Presidency by refusing to obey any of the norms - wholeheartedly adopted fascism, lied consistently and continually, propagandised, actively and brazenly enriched himself and his family, appointed blatently unqualified friends and family to key government positions and rousted out qualified people on the basis that they weren't personally loyal to his brand, used foreign policy and presidential pressure as a weapon to improve his chances of re-election and sought help from foreign powers, cast aspersions on the very functioning of US democracy itself, used tear gas and National guard on legal peaceful protestors for a photo-op, sicced armed mobs on a legally elected governor that he didn't like, abused Presidential immunity to evade lawsuits and criminal investigations of him and his businesses - I could go on, but I really don't want to cause it's depressing enough.

If Bush had lost to Kerry, would there have been even the slightest suggestion that there might not have been a peaceful transfer of power? Would anyone have thought that Bush might say, "We'll see," when asked if he'd accept election results? Trump has broken the office of the President and, now the precedents have been set, I'm not sure if it can be fixed.

Sadly, I think the 2024 candidate will be Trump Jnr. He's been auditioning for it for the past couple of years and he's won the support of the MAGA crowd.

Puja

WaspInWales wrote:

Digby wrote:It's not completely messed up, listen the wise and actually rather calm and reasoned words of Paula White




You're almost reminded of Desmond Tutu

Worst rap ever! [emoji23]

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

I wonder if there is a ring tone version?

Digby wrote:How is Bush responsible for more deaths? Climate change is actually quite a serious thing even before we consider Covid

There's this, plus increased divisions within society, both domestic and global - with subsequent loss of life; plus that Whilst W was a bit of an idiot; he was at least functionaly human with some form of a work ethic and an existant (if somewhat shonky IMO) moral compass; and certainly didn't attempt to actively undermine the efforts of health care during a global pandemic (and wouldn't have in a counterfactual).

Puja wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:Trump being worse than Bush is insane. Trump is certainly more of a narcissistic twat, but while both were tools for greater evil to some degree Bush is responsible (with a helping hand from Joe Biden of course) for an absurd number of deaths.

Trump has certainly been useful for ramping up the culture war. But he’s essentially useless to the GOP now they have Bush’s lot in the courts isn’t he?

I can only imagine what the amalgamation of alt-right, Cheney legacy, Lincoln Project fuds and whatever Stephen Miller-esque figure is around at the time will come up with in 4-8 years.

Hopefully Biden’s mate McConnell will be dead by then at least.

Bush waged a wholly unnecessary war, but he's hardly the only US President to have done that. Trump has broken the Presidency by refusing to obey any of the norms - wholeheartedly adopted fascism, lied consistently and continually, propagandised, actively and brazenly enriched himself and his family, appointed blatently unqualified friends and family to key government positions and rousted out qualified people on the basis that they weren't personally loyal to his brand, used foreign policy and presidential pressure as a weapon to improve his chances of re-election and sought help from foreign powers, cast aspersions on the very functioning of US democracy itself, used tear gas and National guard on legal peaceful protestors for a photo-op, sicced armed mobs on a legally elected governor that he didn't like, abused Presidential immunity to evade lawsuits and criminal investigations of him and his businesses - I could go on, but I really don't want to cause it's depressing enough.

If Bush had lost to Kerry, would there have been even the slightest suggestion that there might not have been a peaceful transfer of power? Would anyone have thought that Bush might say, "We'll see," when asked if he'd accept election results? Trump has broken the office of the President and, now the precedents have been set, I'm not sure if it can be fixed.

Sadly, I think the 2024 candidate will be Trump Jnr. He's been auditioning for it for the past couple of years and he's won the support of the MAGA crowd.

Puja

So he's run a big highlighter over a bunch of the ways US politics is structured around brazen corruption. I actually thought his 'breaking the office' might be a silver-lining to his Presidency. "The only man in the world capable of losing money on a casino" comes along and blows the whole grift for everyone else by being too fucking thick to keep his corruption within the realms of plausible deniability. I genuinely thought it might be the thing that prompts a serious change for America. The moment where the normies realise they're all in the same boat and they've been getting fucked by these guys the entire time. Where someone like Bernie, who had no right to go as far as he did, could feasibly get a shot at trying to instil some vague sense of equality.

There's a lot of awful shit on that Trump list, even without mentioning the border camps, there's no denying that. But I don't even want to think about the details in the equivalent list for Bush. The fact other Presidents may have been responsible for similar horrific things to happen isn't much consolation is it? Maybe Trump would have done the same if he were President, maybe he still would have given his actual response that he now had the highest sky-scraper in NY.

Trump Jnr. 2024 does sound horribly feasible though.

Sandydragon wrote: I wonder if there is a ring tone version?

It's possible people would judge you, on the off chance you ever answer your phone in public again

Trump Jnr for 2024 or Ivanka?

Sandydragon wrote:Trump Jnr for 2024 or Ivanka?

Don junior, Ivanka, Eric and then Barron takes us to 2052 if my maths is correct.