RugbyRebels

Puja wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:Jack Willis sounding pretty down beat in his column in the Times.
He says a return by Xmas is out of the window and ‘I need to see it as an achievement to get back on the pitch…’.

Yeesh. Poor sod. Wonder if he's had a setback somewhere or if it's just not been progressing as quickly as hoped.

Puja

Couple of instances of his knee swelling up I think. Had to have some minor procedure to make it more manageable.

From an England fan POV I think need to treat him coming back any time soon as a bonus. If he can get fit with enough time to push for the World Cup I’ll be very happy.

Yeah I don’t know if it was intended that way but a it’s pretty bleak turn of phrase.

Timbo wrote:

Puja wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:Jack Willis sounding pretty down beat in his column in the Times.
He says a return by Xmas is out of the window and ‘I need to see it as an achievement to get back on the pitch…’.

Yeesh. Poor sod. Wonder if he's had a setback somewhere or if it's just not been progressing as quickly as hoped.

Puja

Couple of instances of his knee swelling up I think. Had to have some minor procedure to make it more manageable.

From an England fan POV I think need to treat him coming back any time soon as a bonus. If he can get fit with enough time to push for the World Cup I’ll be very happy.

Yeah poor lad. Some players just have no luck.

Eddie taking no prisoners in his new book: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/ ... -breakdown

The article writer clearly doesn't like him and is picking their slant on comments, but the basic premise of the wisdom of writing a book about players that he's currently coaching isn't wrong. Seems like a poor decision.

On a side note, we finally know why Ollie Lawrence has gone: "He’s still a kid, only 21, but the way that some of the media raves about him you would think he’s already assured of becoming one of the best players in the world. He might do that, one day, but his attitude was not hungry or disciplined enough."

Puja

This is one of the things that really bugs me about Eddie. Always acting like he doesn't care about other peoples opinions, angrily announcing how much he doesn't care, over and over again, then acting like a little bitch and whining about it non-stop when anyone criticises him or overhypes a player.

You're right it's probably very easy to take choice quotes and make him look bad, but he really invites some of this stuff on himself by making such a point of what a rogue he is.

Puja wrote:Eddie taking no prisoners in his new book: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/ ... -breakdown

The article writer clearly doesn't like him and is picking their slant on comments, but the basic premise of the wisdom of writing a book about players that he's currently coaching isn't wrong. Seems like a poor decision.

On a side note, we finally know why Ollie Lawrence has gone: "He’s still a kid, only 21, but the way that some of the media raves about him you would think he’s already assured of becoming one of the best players in the world. He might do that, one day, but his attitude was not hungry or disciplined enough."

Puja

Agreed. But its been clear from early on that Eddie wants players to earn their places - talent alone isn't enough. I've thought for a while that those players who appear in camps/teams and disappear quickly are assessed on 'wanting it enough/personal discipline'...and once you are out, that's that. No problem in that for me, but writing about it contemporaneously is not on im0

Makes it very clear to anyone else coming in what's needed, and he'll take no prisoners.

Puja wrote:Eddie taking no prisoners in his new book: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/ ... -breakdown

The article writer clearly doesn't like him and is picking their slant on comments, but the basic premise of the wisdom of writing a book about players that he's currently coaching isn't wrong. Seems like a poor decision.

On a side note, we finally know why Ollie Lawrence has gone: "He’s still a kid, only 21, but the way that some of the media raves about him you would think he’s already assured of becoming one of the best players in the world. He might do that, one day, but his attitude was not hungry or disciplined enough."

Puja

Perhaps a different coaching approach (by Jones or some other) might nave been more successful in getting the best out of of Lawrence. These kids have different personalities and the one approach fits all model may not be the best. Still it seems that Jones does not treat his charges equally (what about a spell in acting school for Lawrence then?).
The one point that seems reasonably clear is that Jones makes a fairly quick assessment of someone, and having reached an opinion, that's it, the point of no return.
And BTW, I don't remember many media raves about Lawrence. Jones himself chose to select a young, inexperienced player, who was really nothing special, to his squad, then moans about his not making the grade, after about 5 min game time.
(And Yes - I know I have no idea of what went on in training camp.)

There was a ton of raving about Lawrence. Jones hasn't said he can't make it, just that he's not what Jones wants at the moment.

Jones is there for 2 more years, and even if he ends up needing to invite Lawrence back, he can just say he's obviously worked on it, no loss. But everyone else going into the camp is going to work their arse off.

Hmm, I really can’t recall anything beyond a vague hope he’d fill the void left (by Tuilagi) of a powerful runner in midfield.

I cut Jones plenty of slack, but I really don’t like him saying these things in public while he’s still coach.

Presumably he’s only picking out the players that he thinks can cope with it and/or players that, in his judgment, need to be publically challenged. He does tend to use the media and his public statements as a tool.

Timbo wrote:I cut Jones plenty of slack, but I really don’t like him saying these things in public while he’s still coach.

Presumably he’s only picking out the players that he thinks can cope with it and/or players that, in his judgment, need to be publically challenged. He does tend to use the media and his public statements as a tool.

Why should any of them be publically challenged? Jones is the national team coach. If he selects some young player whom he subsequently believes doesn't measure up, he does not have to make a song and dance about it in public. He can just quietly omit that player from future squads without comment. Or he might suggest, in a positive way, that the player has been given aspects of his game to work on, and let them down easily. To use the current case in point - Jones has been quite damning about Lawrence, who, at his age and stage, may well find it difficult to get over such public laundry. Lawrence has obviously pissed off Jones and will continue to pay the price.
I know Jones has his supporters here, but he really does come across as quite a nasty little man who should not be writing stuff like this while he is still in charge of the England team.

Banquo wrote:

Puja wrote:Eddie taking no prisoners in his new book: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/ ... -breakdown

The article writer clearly doesn't like him and is picking their slant on comments, but the basic premise of the wisdom of writing a book about players that he's currently coaching isn't wrong. Seems like a poor decision.

On a side note, we finally know why Ollie Lawrence has gone: "He’s still a kid, only 21, but the way that some of the media raves about him you would think he’s already assured of becoming one of the best players in the world. He might do that, one day, but his attitude was not hungry or disciplined enough."

Puja

Agreed. But its been clear from early on that Eddie wants players to earn their places - talent alone isn't enough. I've thought for a while that those players who appear in camps/teams and disappear quickly are assessed on 'wanting it enough/personal discipline'...and once you are out, that's that. No problem in that for me, but writing about it contemporaneously is not on im0

Jones is looking for players with the right attitude and thats entirely fair enough. He's the coach, he makes the selection calls. If a player doesnt quite fit the bill, I have no qualms about the coach making a quick, brutal decision in not selecting him. There's no room for sentiment, after all.
But while you are the coach writing about current players is going well beyond what he should be doing.
Its simply not right to criticise a young player so publicly.
The stuff with Itoje going to acting school was cringeworthy.

Lads, don't feed the beast. Just ignore the ecosystem of gobshits in the sports media (and Jones is definitely one of them).

All I would say is that I am surprised that anyone is surprised to discover that Jones has character flaws.

fivepointer wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Puja wrote:Eddie taking no prisoners in his new book: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/ ... -breakdown

The article writer clearly doesn't like him and is picking their slant on comments, but the basic premise of the wisdom of writing a book about players that he's currently coaching isn't wrong. Seems like a poor decision.

On a side note, we finally know why Ollie Lawrence has gone: "He’s still a kid, only 21, but the way that some of the media raves about him you would think he’s already assured of becoming one of the best players in the world. He might do that, one day, but his attitude was not hungry or disciplined enough."

Puja

Agreed. But its been clear from early on that Eddie wants players to earn their places - talent alone isn't enough. I've thought for a while that those players who appear in camps/teams and disappear quickly are assessed on 'wanting it enough/personal discipline'...and once you are out, that's that. No problem in that for me, but writing about it contemporaneously is not on im0

Jones is looking for players with the right attitude and thats entirely fair enough. He's the coach, he makes the selection calls. If a player doesnt quite fit the bill, I have no qualms about the coach making a quick, brutal decision in not selecting him. There's no room for sentiment, after all.
But while you are the coach writing about current players is going well beyond what he should be doing.
Its simply not right to criticise a young player so publicly.
The stuff with Itoje going to acting school was cringeworthy.

indeed.

Oakboy wrote:All I would say is that I am surprised that anyone is surprised to discover that Jones has character flaws.

I at least understand the theory behind all the tough love, media-skeptic, us vs them, lightning rod bullshit he’s always going on about. I can even sort of accept his statement that there were 5 players (I believe) from the last group who wouldn’t play again (under his tenure), but this feels like an attempt to do for Lawrence’s career entirely even once Jones is gone.

Getting it out there his attitude is bad and he doesn’t want it, who does that serve? I don’t buy for a second that it’s all worth it because new players will now go in with the correct display of desire. Maybe there is more nuance to this, I’ve only seen that short quote, but it looks surprisingly bad to me and I already thought Jones was a complete tit.

Aside from the discussion of (justifiably) bashing Eddie, I am genuinely not surprised to hear that impression of Lawrence. He has been talked up in rugby circles for a very long time, was promoted to the U20s aged 18, started playing regularly for Worcester aged 19 and was in an England training squad that year - he's always been promoted very fast, very early and always with people and press murmuring, "He's quite big and strong and Manu's still injured, so maybe..." He seems to ride on the coat-tails of people wanting there to be another Manu.

Don't get me wrong - he is definitely talented - but it feels like he's been promoted a lot on potential and not very much on actual results. People talk up what he could be, but I've not watched him in the Prem and seen him tear up a game - okay, so it's harder when you play for Worcester, but someone like Rona manages it for Irish.

Given so much attention and so many chances being given on his potential, I'm not surprised if he's not as hungry as someone like Marchant who has had to fight to get into consideration.

Puja

How is saying a guy could be one of the greats, doing his career entirely? He said he's a kid. Kids grow up.

You honestly think that the next coach of England is going to think "Hmm, a few years ago Eddie said he's just a kid and he's not hungry or disciplined enough. Well, Eddie knows better than me, and despite him tearing it up in the prem now and making a huge impression, I'd best not pick him so as to not upset Eddie..."

Mikey Brown wrote:

Oakboy wrote:All I would say is that I am surprised that anyone is surprised to discover that Jones has character flaws.

I at least understand the theory behind all the tough love, media-skeptic, us vs them, lightning rod bullshit he’s always going on about. I can even sort of accept his statement that there were 5 players (I believe) from the last group who wouldn’t play again (under his tenure), but this feels like an attempt to do for Lawrence’s career entirely even once Jones is gone.

Getting it out there his attitude is bad and he doesn’t want it, who does that serve? I don’t buy for a second that it’s all worth it because new players will now go in with the correct display of desire. Maybe there is more nuance to this, I’ve only seen that short quote, but it looks surprisingly bad to me and I already thought Jones was a complete tit.

In these days of highlighting potential mental health issues, maybe someone at the RFU will suggest to Jones that he's on dodgy ground pillorying a young guy publicly in this way.

He’s slagging players off to make himself money. Not sure how anyone can defend that.

Also I'm not sure anyone should be taking tips on leadership from a guy willing to publicly bash those in his team. This idea that he is a great man manager when he pulls stuff like this don't really match up

Raggs wrote:How is saying a guy could be one of the greats, doing his career entirely? He said he's a kid. Kids grow up.

You honestly think that the next coach of England is going to think "Hmm, a few years ago Eddie said he's just a kid and he's not hungry or disciplined enough. Well, Eddie knows better than me, and despite him tearing it up in the prem now and making a huge impression, I'd best not pick him so as to not upset Eddie..."

Totally agree. I don’t like the manner of delivering his opinion of Lawrence publicly in a book and I didn’t like his comments about Marcus Smith, but to paint this as tarnishing Lawrence’s whole career is a massive reach.

None of us know Lawrence either. For all we know, Eddie may have tried to deliver the same message to him directly without the result he wanted to see and is now trying to provoke a reaction from a player he really rates but feels needs a kick up the backside.

As I say, I don’t really like it, but some of the responses here are taking it way too far.

And lets be honest, there have been plenty of players that received similar plaudits to Lawrence in the past, and have gone on to seemingly believe their own hype and underachieve for much of their career.

Raggs wrote:How is saying a guy could be one of the greats, doing his career entirely? He said he's a kid. Kids grow up.

You honestly think that the next coach of England is going to think "Hmm, a few years ago Eddie said he's just a kid and he's not hungry or disciplined enough. Well, Eddie knows better than me, and despite him tearing it up in the prem now and making a huge impression, I'd best not pick him so as to not upset Eddie..."

I suppose when you and I read the words “he could be one of the greats” we’re imagining quite a different tone/inflection. Impossible to know either way I guess, and I may well be swayed by my existing opinion of Eddie, but the ‘he might do that, one day, but here’s what I actually think’ part just sounds to me like he’s covering all his bases.

I’m not suggesting other coaches will feel the need to fall in line with Eddie’s opinion (not in the way Eddie needs his selections pre-approved by Gatland for instance*) but it just seems a bit much to announce certain players careers are essentially over in his eyes and then put this in a book. One of those players would seemingly be the 22 yo Lawrence.