RugbyRebels

Mikey Brown wrote:

Raggs wrote:How is saying a guy could be one of the greats, doing his career entirely? He said he's a kid. Kids grow up.

You honestly think that the next coach of England is going to think "Hmm, a few years ago Eddie said he's just a kid and he's not hungry or disciplined enough. Well, Eddie knows better than me, and despite him tearing it up in the prem now and making a huge impression, I'd best not pick him so as to not upset Eddie..."

I suppose when you and I read the words “he could be one of the greats” we’re imagining quite a different tone/inflection. Impossible to know either way I guess, and I may well be swayed by my existing opinion of Eddie, but the ‘he might do that, one day, but here’s what I actually think’ part just sounds to me like he’s covering all his bases.

I’m not suggesting other coaches will feel the need to fall in line with Eddie’s opinion (not in the way Eddie needs his selections pre-approved by Gatland for instance*) but it just seems a bit much to announce certain players careers are essentially over in his eyes and then put this in a book. One of those players would seemingly be the 22 yo Lawrence.

I think we're imagining hugely different tones if you're imagining it in a tone that's going to make Lawrence's entire career over. I'm waiting for the new that Wuss has dropped him, and no one else wants him.

I suppose an author looking to boost book sales is hardly likely to say, magnanimously, "I could not get the best out of him but a better coach might!"

Worth also pointing out that as far as I'm aware none of us actually know Ollie Lawrence, whereas Jones has had plenty of interaction with him, knows a bit about him and what he responds to. I agree it's not really a great way of handling things but it might be that Jones thinks it's a way of getting the sort of reaction he wants from Lawrence - this idea that it will immediately destroy the lad's confidence and he'll be so distraught he'll never recover seems quite overblown, fed I suspect by the fact that a lot of people just really don't like Eddie Jones (which is fair enough - he is a bit of a knob after all!)

Raggs wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:

Raggs wrote:How is saying a guy could be one of the greats, doing his career entirely? He said he's a kid. Kids grow up.

You honestly think that the next coach of England is going to think "Hmm, a few years ago Eddie said he's just a kid and he's not hungry or disciplined enough. Well, Eddie knows better than me, and despite him tearing it up in the prem now and making a huge impression, I'd best not pick him so as to not upset Eddie..."

I suppose when you and I read the words “he could be one of the greats” we’re imagining quite a different tone/inflection. Impossible to know either way I guess, and I may well be swayed by my existing opinion of Eddie, but the ‘he might do that, one day, but here’s what I actually think’ part just sounds to me like he’s covering all his bases.

I’m not suggesting other coaches will feel the need to fall in line with Eddie’s opinion (not in the way Eddie needs his selections pre-approved by Gatland for instance*) but it just seems a bit much to announce certain players careers are essentially over in his eyes and then put this in a book. One of those players would seemingly be the 22 yo Lawrence.

I think we're imagining hugely different tones if you're imagining it in a tone that's going to make Lawrence's entire career over. I'm waiting for the new that Wuss has dropped him, and no one else wants him.

I mean I feel like my response to that is already in there, but yes I did mean England/international career specifically.

Mikey Brown wrote:

Raggs wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:
I suppose when you and I read the words “he could be one of the greats” we’re imagining quite a different tone/inflection. Impossible to know either way I guess, and I may well be swayed by my existing opinion of Eddie, but the ‘he might do that, one day, but here’s what I actually think’ part just sounds to me like he’s covering all his bases.

I’m not suggesting other coaches will feel the need to fall in line with Eddie’s opinion (not in the way Eddie needs his selections pre-approved by Gatland for instance*) but it just seems a bit much to announce certain players careers are essentially over in his eyes and then put this in a book. One of those players would seemingly be the 22 yo Lawrence.

I think we're imagining hugely different tones if you're imagining it in a tone that's going to make Lawrence's entire career over. I'm waiting for the new that Wuss has dropped him, and no one else wants him.

I mean I feel like my response to that is already in there, but yes I did mean England/international career specifically.

You really believe that though? You think that no future England coach will ever look at him again, regardless of how well he does in the prem/europe? Or even Jones won't look at him again? If he comes out swinging and dominating next season, Jones will pick him and say he got the boot up his arse that he needed.

We have probably flogged it to death by now. For me the central issue in all of this is not whether Lawrence was media overhyped or not; not that he might have been a lazy and undisciplined trainer; not that he pissed Jones off with his attitude.
It is all about how Jones chose to handle it publically, in a book, written for financial gain, while he is still England boss. Sure to sell a few extra copies, eh. Anyone here buying a copy? I won't be.
The man has no class at all.

Raggs wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:

Raggs wrote:
I think we're imagining hugely different tones if you're imagining it in a tone that's going to make Lawrence's entire career over. I'm waiting for the new that Wuss has dropped him, and no one else wants him.

I mean I feel like my response to that is already in there, but yes I did mean England/international career specifically.

You really believe that though? You think that no future England coach will ever look at him again, regardless of how well he does in the prem/europe? Or even Jones won't look at him again? If he comes out swinging and dominating next season, Jones will pick him and say he got the boot up his arse that he needed.

No? I mean I didn't say that so I don't know why you think I would. I did explicitly say above that I don't think other coaches will feel influenced by it, yet it feels like a dick move to make a public statement like that which might linger around far longer than the remaining 2 years of his tenure.

Whether Jones will look at him again who knows. This was the excerpt from the article I was referring to 'After the defeat by Ireland in the final match, Jones concluded there were five players unlikely to play Test rugby again' - it's just a quote in a paper so might be complete bollocks but sounds believably Jonesy to me. Maybe Lawrence isn't one of those names, but Ford or any Saracens player being amongst them sounds ludicrous.

I'm not an Ollie Lawrence fan boy in any sense, similar to what Puja said above I've not really seen him dominate in a game yet but he certainly has some of the raw attributes. I hope for his sake he's not another Burrell/Harrison, ditto Isiekwe.

And yes, Spiffy, consider this horse thoroughly flogged.

Lawrence has played for England since the last 6 Natuons, in fairness. He was picked for the summer games and started the first game before picking up an injury.

Also worth remembering that Eddie did mention Lawrence making adjustments to his training/diet/prep/recovery etc during the last 6 nations and how much he’d improved. Maybe that these quotes are referencing his first impression of Lawrence?

Indeed. I very much doubt any of us has read the book (or will read the book), but a quote a newspaper has selected because they know it will be controversial, is at best lacking in context.

Here's a thing

All very "matey", innit. Fair makes ye squirm!

Racist.

Bloody aussies having friends.

Mikey Brown wrote:Hmm, I really can’t recall anything beyond a vague hope he’d fill the void left (by Tuilagi) of a powerful runner in midfield.

Exactly. Jones is just a tool. Unfortunately he is currently ours so we must jump to his defence.
Write a book when you piss off out of the job, not before

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/powerhou ... -contract/
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/exclusiv ... -lawrence/
https://www.rugbyworld.com/countries/en ... cing-98178

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/12-playe ... k-2018-19/
https://www.rugbyworld.com/countries/en ... cup-105797
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/new-batc ... emiership/

That was just on a quick check, and ignores the verbal praise he's received for ages. Commentary teams, podcasts, twitter etc etc have been praising Lawrence, and rightly so. That's far more than just a "vague hope".

Split the URLs up so it would let me post.

Raggs wrote:

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/powerhou ... -contract/
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/exclusiv ... -lawrence/
https://www.rugbyworld.com/countries/en ... cing-98178

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/12-playe ... k-2018-19/
https://www.rugbyworld.com/countries/en ... cup-105797
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/new-batc ... emiership/

That was just on a quick check, and ignores the verbal praise he's received for ages. Commentary teams, podcasts, twitter etc etc have been praising Lawrence, and rightly so. That's far more than just a "vague hope".

Split the URLs up so it would let me post.

No wonder it went to his head with some of the names he was mentioned with

Danno wrote:

Raggs wrote:

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/powerhou ... -contract/
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/exclusiv ... -lawrence/
https://www.rugbyworld.com/countries/en ... cing-98178

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/12-playe ... k-2018-19/
https://www.rugbyworld.com/countries/en ... cup-105797
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/new-batc ... emiership/

That was just on a quick check, and ignores the verbal praise he's received for ages. Commentary teams, podcasts, twitter etc etc have been praising Lawrence, and rightly so. That's far more than just a "vague hope".

Split the URLs up so it would let me post.

No wonder it went to his head with some of the names he was mentioned with

I tried to avoid local press stuff, he's mentioned a few more times in the Worcester local stuff.

He is a talent, and it's not unreasonable praise, when he's playing well he's really good. But he does seem to run hot and cold a bit, which might be an attitude/application issue. Any top level sportsperson is clearly dedicated, but there's different levels. Someone like Farrell for instance probably ranks near the top in terms of dedication to improve themselves and work hard, which is why someone without exceptional physical or skill talents, has achieved so much, and undoubtedly why coaches love him.

To be fair younger players tend to blow hot and cold as they find their way in senior rugby. Initial breakouts are common but then oppositions start picking up on how you play and targeting you. I always think the difference between club players and the international players are that the international level players find ways of adapting their game so they still make an impact even with being targeted. We're likely to see the likes of Freddie Steward face that over this season, particularly in the 6N.

If Lawrence can go back into the Wuss team and start tearing it up on a regular basis it'll mean he's added to his game and doing more than the bullocking runs he's been noted for previously. Better angles and an offloading game would be ideal, mixing up the power with an outside break would start putting him in Manu country.

FKAS wrote:To be fair younger players tend to blow hot and cold as they find their way in senior rugby. Initial breakouts are common but then oppositions start picking up on how you play and targeting you. I always think the difference between club players and the international players are that the international level players find ways of adapting their game so they still make an impact even with being targeted. We're likely to see the likes of Freddie Steward face that over this season, particularly in the 6N.

If Lawrence can go back into the Wuss team and start tearing it up on a regular basis it'll mean he's added to his game and doing more than the bullocking runs he's been noted for previously. Better angles and an offloading game would be ideal, mixing up the power with an outside break would start putting him in Manu country.

I think there is another difference, apart from talent- and its attitude.

Oh, and if you are suggesting that a centre should be a good all round player, that'd be radical

FKAS wrote:To be fair younger players tend to blow hot and cold as they find their way in senior rugby. Initial breakouts are common but then oppositions start picking up on how you play and targeting you. I always think the difference between club players and the international players are that the international level players find ways of adapting their game so they still make an impact even with being targeted. We're likely to see the likes of Freddie Steward face that over this season, particularly in the 6N.

If Lawrence can go back into the Wuss team and start tearing it up on a regular basis it'll mean he's added to his game and doing more than the bullocking runs he's been noted for previously. Better angles and an offloading game would be ideal, mixing up the power with an outside break would start putting him in Manu country.

My issue with Lawrence is that I don't think I ever saw him have the initial breakout. It's not a case that his form's gone cold, more that I never saw it hot and he just seemed to end up getting capped by default because he was a big centre and we wanted one of those. Maybe I missed the games where he tore it up for Wuss or something.

Puja

Puja wrote:

FKAS wrote:To be fair younger players tend to blow hot and cold as they find their way in senior rugby. Initial breakouts are common but then oppositions start picking up on how you play and targeting you. I always think the difference between club players and the international players are that the international level players find ways of adapting their game so they still make an impact even with being targeted. We're likely to see the likes of Freddie Steward face that over this season, particularly in the 6N.

If Lawrence can go back into the Wuss team and start tearing it up on a regular basis it'll mean he's added to his game and doing more than the bullocking runs he's been noted for previously. Better angles and an offloading game would be ideal, mixing up the power with an outside break would start putting him in Manu country.

My issue with Lawrence is that I don't think I ever saw him have the initial breakout. It's not a case that his form's gone cold, more that I never saw it hot and he just seemed to end up getting capped by default because he was a big centre and we wanted one of those. Maybe I missed the games where he tore it up for Wuss or something.

Puja

Indeed.

One thing holding Lawrence back has been persistent niggling injuries. He has missed a fair bit of rugby and has seldom got a good run of games under his belt. He's been injured for the last month for instance. He cant make a case if he isnt playing.
He does blow a bit hot and cold. I've seen him do some really neat stuff but then he makes a basic error.
He's got a lot of talent but needs to actually play more, which should lead to achieving greater consistency.

No real other place to put it and it's definitely not worth its own thread, but someone sent me this today and it amused:
Puja

That meme is older than Smith is

Sam Underhill starting at 8 for Bath. Jngf will be very excited.