RugbyRebels

SDHoneymonster wrote:I like Lawes at 6 against beefier teams like France & SA, with a bigger thunderbastard like Hill or Launchbury in the second row. I'd move him back to lock for games against more mobile packs like NZ or Scotland, with a combo of Curry/Underhill/Willis on the flanks. RE the potential newbies in the squad being reported, I mentioned Hatherell a few weeks back so would feel very smug if it came to pass. He just ticks too many Eddie boxes to be ignored: abrasive defender, lineout option, circuitous route to the top via the Champo rather than the England age-groups.

Just quoting this to note that I am very fond of the term "Thunderbastard"

Puja wrote:

Oakboy wrote:

Banquo wrote: That we have plenty of good players, but not many that scream world class. IMO its a systemic thang. Institutional mediocrity

Can't argue. What fascinates me is how many would subsequently become (or be judged) world class if two or three in crucial positions dropped out of the sky - say 9 and 12, for example. Would that lift others? Going back to 2002, how many were genuinely world class (automatic world xv picks)? Hill, Johnson and JW perhaps? Others, Robinson, Greenwood etc. floated on their boat, perhaps.

If you're talking World XV in 2002, you'd say Johnson, Hill, Wilkinson, Greenwood, and Robinson as automatic World XV picks - Greenwood was a class above his contemporaries at centre and Robinson was a game-changing weapon. Depending on who was picking the World XV, an argument could have been made for Woodman, Thompson, and Cohen* as well, although they wouldn't've been automatic.

Puja

*Don't laugh - in 2002, he was one of the pre-eminent wings in the world game and scoring tries against all and sundry.

If you add Cohen, Woodman and Thompson then Dallaglio is surely also there, too.

Oakboy wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Oakboy wrote:
How do you feel about that at this stage?

That we have plenty of good players, but not many that scream world class. IMO its a systemic thang. Institutional mediocrity

Can't argue. What fascinates me is how many would subsequently become (or be judged) world class if two or three in crucial positions dropped out of the sky - say 9 and 12, for example. Would that lift others? Going back to 2002, how many were genuinely world class (automatic world xv picks)? Hill, Johnson and JW perhaps? Others, Robinson, Greenwood etc. floated on their boat, perhaps.

Woodman, Thompson, Vickery, Johnson, Hill, Back, Dallaglio, Greenwood, Robinson were right up there. The rest were very good, and good squad back up; iirc Shaw was on the periphery but a great player; Cohen was very good for a period too, and both Dawson and Bracken were very decent, as well as Lewsey and Ben Kay, and Catt to lend a hand in good form. Very strong squad. The pack were fantastic, mainly.

I don't think a quality 9 or 12 would lift us enough- its the pack that is our fundamental issue in games where we lose.

Puja wrote:

Oakboy wrote:

Banquo wrote: That we have plenty of good players, but not many that scream world class. IMO its a systemic thang. Institutional mediocrity

Can't argue. What fascinates me is how many would subsequently become (or be judged) world class if two or three in crucial positions dropped out of the sky - say 9 and 12, for example. Would that lift others? Going back to 2002, how many were genuinely world class (automatic world xv picks)? Hill, Johnson and JW perhaps? Others, Robinson, Greenwood etc. floated on their boat, perhaps.

If you're talking World XV in 2002, you'd say Johnson, Hill, Wilkinson, Greenwood, and Robinson as automatic World XV picks - Greenwood was a class above his contemporaries at centre and Robinson was a game-changing weapon. Depending on who was picking the World XV, an argument could have been made for Woodman, Thompson, and Cohen* as well, although they wouldn't've been automatic.

Puja

*Don't laugh - in 2002, he was one of the pre-eminent wings in the world game and scoring tries against all and sundry.

Dayglo also world class and the front row were great too.

Sorry to disrupt this thrilling discussion, but Ben White and Andy Christie have just been announced in the 6 nations squad for Scotland??? I could barely remember who White was. I feel like there was a time he was considered a prospect at Leicester a few years back, then just... nothing? Seen Christie pop up in some highlights, and seems handy enough, but I generally avoid watching full Saracens games. Is he a loss of any kind?

Mikey Brown wrote:Sorry to disrupt this thrilling discussion, but Ben White and Andy Christie have just been announced in the 6 nations squad for Scotland??? I could barely remember who White was. I feel like there was a time he was considered a prospect at Leicester a few years back, then just... nothing? Seen Christie pop up in some highlights, and seems handy enough, but I generally avoid watching full Saracens games. Is he a loss of any kind?

I never rated Ben White particularly highly and were amazed that England were ever interested in him - very much a 5-minutes-and-a-cup-of-tea at the base of the ruck sort of scrum-half rather than getting the ball away quickly. He might kick on (and was rated highly for his leadership potential at Leicester), but he wasn't someone that we fought to keep with JVP coming through behind him.

Puja

Ben White is I think Tigers youngest ever player. He's definitely got skills but as Puja says hasn't kicked on sufficiently. Might be just one of those that reaches his peak early so becomes the natural leader at young rugby but struggles to make the step up because he's reaches his limit. Fiesty scrum half with solid basics and some pace. As Puja says though pass isn't quick and he has a tendency to get involved in rucks instead of passing.

Christie has looked good at 6 for Sarries. Combative, good lineout jumper though I thought he looked a prospect and not a ready-made international.

Christie has looked a good all round back rower. Offers a little bit of everything. Good prospect and may develop further.

Christie is a pretty good player. From an England perspective I think it's a shame, as he's got potential. But it's clearly an area of strength for England so I can see why he's done it

Christie looks decent enough but not to the extent that I’m worried about him playing for Scotland. Pretty sure he played for them at U20 already anyway.

Similarly ambivalent about White. I just find it funny that such a low percentage of the Scotland is actually Scottish.

Christie played for England at U20 level - he played for Scotland U16s but switched back to England (he's a Brizzle lad by birth) from U18s onward. I would suggest neither him nor White are massive gains for Scotland given that they always seem to crank out good flankers and scrum halves (Scotland, and Townsend in particular, seem to pick and cap players BECAUSE they're Scottish-qualified rather than for genuine rugby reasons), nor massive losses to England.

In other news, Farrell's pulled out of the London Irish game with an injury...

SDHoneymonster wrote:In other news, Farrell's pulled out of the London Irish game with an injury...

Got a bit of discussion on it here: http://rugbyrebels.co/board/viewtopic.p ... &start=125

Puja

Bit of a ropey stream, but Daly absolutely ripping it up for Sarries against Irish right now. Looks very sharp and he’s bagged 2 50/22’s so far. Back in the England squad before the end of the 6N’s a distinct possibility.

Timbo wrote:Bit of a ropey stream, but Daly absolutely ripping it up for Sarries against Irish right now. Looks very sharp and he’s bagged 2 50/22’s so far. Back in the England squad before the end of the 6N’s a distinct possibility.

Hopefully as a wing. Does Itoje ever get a rest?!

Banquo wrote:

Timbo wrote:Bit of a ropey stream, but Daly absolutely ripping it up for Sarries against Irish right now. Looks very sharp and he’s bagged 2 50/22’s so far. Back in the England squad before the end of the 6N’s a distinct possibility.

Hopefully as a wing. Does Itoje ever get a rest?!

Doesn’t seem to, but I suppose with Sarries having a few rest/covid weeks recently he should be reasonably fresh. He looked sharp, if not quite as dominant as he can be.

Found this interesting titbit while looking to see if the Bath teamsheet is out this week:

Tom Dunn, Taulupe Faletau, Joe Cokanasiga, Tom de Glanville, Ethan Staddon and Richard de Carpentier will all return to training in the coming weeks following their respective injuries.

https://www.bathrugby.com/club-news/bat ... -update-1/

Good news - hopefully this one sticks.

Puja

Manu’s back.

He looked very trim, which historically has been unusual for him after a decent time out. Obviously kept up the new fitness regime, which is great to see.

Manu apparently took up ballroom dancing, I think salsa specifically. He cut off a lot of the big gym work a few years back. I think being a bit lighter suits him. Well it's quite a bit lighter I think but he just needs to keep fit which has always been his problem sadly. He'd have a 100 caps as opposed to forty odd if it wasn't for the many lay offs. A hat full of Lions appearances to, Gatland would have given his left arm for a fit and firing Manu last summer.

FKAS wrote:Manu apparently took up ballroom dancing, I think salsa specifically. He cut off a lot of the big gym work a few years back. I think being a bit lighter suits him. Well it's quite a bit lighter I think but he just needs to keep fit which has always been his problem sadly. He'd have a 100 caps as opposed to forty odd if it wasn't for the many lay offs. A hat full of Lions appearances to, Gatland would have given his left arm for a fit and firing Manu last summer.

He had a string of what looked like unrelated injuries - bad luck- early in his career, but now seems to have almost chronic groin and hamstring issues. No doubt he will have had the best assessments and conditioning regimes, so he is just unlucky again, likely.

Willis got most of the second half through an injury to Fifita. He was plenty busy, which must have annoyed Robson (who had been shunt all game), who kicked the ball directly into Willis' face from a ruck on/around 52mins

Apols if already posted but I’ve just read that Kruis will retire when his contract in Japan finishes to concentrate on his business.

Mellsblue wrote:Apols if already posted but I’ve just read that Kruis will retire when his contract in Japan finishes to concentrate on his business.

Huh. No, that's a new one on me - everything I'd heard was of Prem teams scrapping for his signature (although both Leicester and Sarries now have youngsters where they used to have a hole that would've seemed Kruis-shaped).

Fair play to him - going out on his own terms.

Puja

Mellsblue wrote:Apols if already posted but I’ve just read that Kruis will retire when his contract in Japan finishes to concentrate on his business.

Just read this too. Surprising and disappointing from an England POV, but fair play to him.

There was also a direct quote saying: “I wouldn’t play for another UK club apart from Sarries” so perhaps this is linked to them re-signing a bunch of their other players and not having the cap space for Kruis. Also possibly why they went for Tizard.

So … I blame Saracens for not signing Kruis (indirectly sealing his retirement) instead stealing Tizard from Quins. Shame on them.