RugbyRebels

Mikey Brown wrote:I’m just a bit baffled by your preoccupation with Scotland looking for poaches, I’m clearly being a bit defensive, but you’re aware absolutely everyone is doing this?

Out of interest - how many can you name from outside of Scotland, Wales, Italy?

So how many foreign players, playing in a foreign league, are being offered caps before the age of 21 and having not played rugby in the country in question (excepting as the visiting team). Sometimes despite having represented that foreign country in non-capped matches, and often-times been in wider training squads for that country.

I just think you're definition of "absolutely everyone" 3/10 of the top tier.
ETA: That's the same number as nations who refuse to cap anyone not playing domestically, who cannot possibly be included in "absolutely everybody".

Italy are a bit different. Theirs tend to be more experienced players qualifying on residency (Varney is a bit more of an exception).

The main culprits are Wales and Scotland. Christ Tshiunza is an example of a player who is nowhere near ready for international rugby but Wales capped him prematurely primarily to capture him. At least in his case, he should play for Wales and they’ve played the main part in his early development.

Scotland sniffing around Arundell is pure poaching and leeching off the England (and LI) development system.

Scrumhead wrote:Italy are a bit different. Theirs tend to be more experienced players qualifying on residency (Varney is a bit more of an exception).

The ones I was thinking of explicitly (not exactly following Italian rugby) were Varney, Braly and Polledri - all born, bred and educated in the UK; all qualifying through ancestry. Back in the day, they've had plenty of Argentinians with an Italian granny, but I don't think that's the case any more.

Which Tyler wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:I’m just a bit baffled by your preoccupation with Scotland looking for poaches, I’m clearly being a bit defensive, but you’re aware absolutely everyone is doing this?

Out of interest - how many can you name from outside of Scotland, Wales, Italy?

So how many foreign players, playing in a foreign league, are being offered caps before the age of 21 and having not played rugby in the country in question (excepting as the visiting team). Sometimes despite having represented that foreign country in non-capped matches, and often-times been in wider training squads for that country.

I just think you're definition of "absolutely everyone" 3/10 of the top tier.
ETA: That's the same number as nations who refuse to cap anyone not playing domestically, who cannot possibly be included in "absolutely everybody".

Fair enough. I was talking more broadly about capping players who might not typically be recognised as a native of that country. I’m not saying every team is looking to cap a Tshizuna (sp) or Arundell before they’re necessarily ready, but wouldn’t view Dingwall or the like as in that category.

Obviously England don’t have the same pressure to look for these players abroad (I can only think of Shields who was brought over specifically for England caps, can’t remember what the deal was with Solomona/Francis) but they have a bunch of money and 12 premiership clubs drawing talent in. Jones spoke to Ashman didn’t he? Was Rodd capped because he was the best available loosehead in England at the time?

It just seems like an inevitable result of professionalism and teams like Scotland, Ireland, Wales having expectations on them to compete with England, France, SA’s player pools.

I don’t know what conversations have actually been had with Arundell, but from Scotland’s POV I don’t see why you wouldn’t enquire if he was interested, as a SQP. I don’t like it, particularly, but claiming Scotland would rather poach than develop our own talent seems bizarre, as if a bunch more pro teams and funding could be easily thrown together.

Anyway, I’m sure this is beyond tedious for just about everyone. I regret posting that tweet and I’ve learned my lesson.

Mikey Brown wrote:I don’t see why you wouldn’t enquire if he was interested, as a SQP.

Would be negligent not to, IMO.

Mikey Brown wrote:

Which Tyler wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:I’m just a bit baffled by your preoccupation with Scotland looking for poaches, I’m clearly being a bit defensive, but you’re aware absolutely everyone is doing this?

Out of interest - how many can you name from outside of Scotland, Wales, Italy?

So how many foreign players, playing in a foreign league, are being offered caps before the age of 21 and having not played rugby in the country in question (excepting as the visiting team). Sometimes despite having represented that foreign country in non-capped matches, and often-times been in wider training squads for that country.

I just think you're definition of "absolutely everyone" 3/10 of the top tier.
ETA: That's the same number as nations who refuse to cap anyone not playing domestically, who cannot possibly be included in "absolutely everybody".

Fair enough. I was talking more broadly about capping players who might not typically be recognised as a native of that country. I’m not saying every team is looking to cap a Tshizuna (sp) or Arundell before they’re necessarily ready, but wouldn’t view Dingwall or the like as in that category.

Obviously England don’t have the same pressure to look for these players abroad (I can only think of Shields who was brought over specifically for England caps, can’t remember what the deal was with Solomona/Francis) but they have a bunch of money and 12 premiership clubs drawing talent in. Jones spoke to Ashman didn’t he? Was Rodd capped because he was the best available loosehead in England at the time?

It just seems like an inevitable result of professionalism and teams like Scotland, Ireland, Wales having expectations on them to compete with England, France, SA’s player pools.

I don’t know what conversations have actually been had with Arundell, but from Scotland’s POV I don’t see why you wouldn’t enquire if he was interested, as a SQP. I don’t like it, particularly, but claiming Scotland would rather poach than develop our own talent seems bizarre, as if a bunch more pro teams and funding could be easily thrown together.

Anyway, I’m sure this is beyond tedious for just about everyone. I regret posting that tweet and I’ve learned my lesson.

I think Ashman was an attempted revenge poach in the wake of the Redpath Incident. The glorious endgame of all this poaching is surely 15 Englishmen in blue and 15 Scots in white all capped in retaliation.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... 1649072398

Good piece from Mr Morgan (I'm sure we all know how to circumvent the Telegraph paywall by now). What I'm getting from the remarkable post-carry stats down the article is that Ben Earl is also growing into an utter monster; he's turning into a bigger, possibly better Sam Simmonds IMO (and I'm a paid up member of the Sam Simmonds Appreciation Society).

SDHoneymonster wrote: The glorious endgame of all this poaching is surely 15 Englishmen in blue and 15 Scots in white all capped in retaliation.

This is utterly absurd and will never happen. There would obvs be two SA props playing for Scotland and one player of Samoan/Fijian heritage playing for England to beef up the backline.

SDHoneymonster wrote:https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... 1649072398

Good piece from Mr Morgan (I'm sure we all know how to circumvent the Telegraph paywall by now). What I'm getting from the remarkable post-carry stats down the article is that Ben Earl is also growing into an utter monster; he's turning into a bigger, possibly better Sam Simmonds IMO (and I'm a paid up member of the Sam Simmonds Appreciation Society).

Ludlam is also learning to channel his puppy dog energy which is great; Earl also does play like an authentic flanker....which i am sure Simmonds could do, but isn't asked to by Exeter.

Also food for thought on Billy, and interesting that Earl's form had been said to be poor since coming back from Brizz by a few on here.

I suspect there are caveats hiding within the data - it probably includes tackle busts for example, so a player like Earl, who probably plays wider where less defenders lurk and therefore is more likely to have space and be able to hoover up ground quicker once a tackle has been broken, maybe looks more eye-catching than a player like Billy who does most of their carrying in more congested areas (and it's not like Billy's stats are bad!). But it does force some rethinks for sure. Hatherell, T. Hill and T. Willis all come out of that list very well too.

SDHoneymonster wrote:I suspect there are caveats hiding within the data - it probably includes tackle busts for example, so a player like Earl, who probably plays wider where less defenders lurk and therefore is more likely to have space and be able to hoover up ground quicker once a tackle has been broken, maybe looks more eye-catching than a player like Billy who does most of their carrying in more congested areas (and it's not like Billy's stats are bad!). But it does force some rethinks for sure. Hatherell, T. Hill and T. Willis all come out of that list very well too.

You misunderstand, I think the numbers are good for Billy (cf someone like Augustus, who works a bit wider), who IMO has been written off prematurely. Not sure Earl is tasked with wide carrying, and that maybe why folks have been decrying his lack of impact- he's likely doing a more orthodox flanker role w sarries.

But you are correct that stats without context can mislead.

Aren't prem stats generally weird because so many games are played without internationals. That is generally a good list of the "best of the rest" isn't it.

Some interesting anecdotes from Mike Brown in this interview.
It's LONG, but has chapters so you can find what is of interest

Mature interview from "Mr Angry" - informative about Yoda's missing man-management skills.

Apparently he's in the running to be the Lakers head coach...

Did anyone see the Wasps game in full yesterday? Barbeary scored a hat trick of tires, bit I just watched the highlights and hard to gauge whether he was actually any good given how poor Biarritz defending. Genuinely I think I could have scored a couple of them - they were virtually unopposed.

I also noticed that he failed to stop the Biarritz 10 from scoring - weirdly he stood on the line and it seemed like he chose to wait and try to hold the 10 up. He basically allowed the guy a run up and made a poor attempt to stop him. I’m definitely judging him harshly, but given the question marks around his tackling, it stood out as particularly weak for a player as powerful as he is.

Scrumhead wrote:Did anyone see the Wasps game in full yesterday? Barbeary scored a hat trick of tires, bit I just watched the highlights and hard to gauge whether he was actually any good given how poor Biarritz defending. Genuinely I think I could have scored a couple of them - they were virtually unopposed.

I also noticed that he failed to stop the Biarritz 10 from scoring - weirdly he stood on the line and it seemed like he chose to wait and try to hold the 10 up. He basically allowed the guy a run up and made a poor attempt to stop him. I’m definitely judging him harshly, but given the question marks around his tackling, it stood out as particularly weak for a player as powerful as he is.

Which try was that? I have to assume you saw the back of the shirt, and thought it was 10, but actually it was 16? Their hooker had a good old run up at him from the back of a maul and just got low to bump him back. Barbeary was a little passive, but it wasn't a 10 .

Are there question marks around his tackling? Haven't heard that one before.

Puja

Yes. His missed tackle stats have been higher than you’d anticipate for a back row player.

It would definitely would make more sense if it was a hooker rather than a 10. Must have got the shirt number wrong! I still don’t understand why he just let the guy have a run-up to the line before trying to stop him? Even if he’d tried to hold him up in the same way 5m further forward it would have probably stopped the try.

Scrumhead wrote:Yes. His missed tackle stats have been higher than you’d anticipate for a back row player.

It would definitely would make more sense if it was a hooker rather than a 10. Must have got the shirt number wrong! I still don’t understand why he just let the guy have a run-up to the line before trying to stop him? Even if he’d tried to hold him up in the same way 5m further forward it would have probably stopped the try.

It was off the back of a maul, he had to be onside, he could have maybe got another meter or two forward but the you risk being wrong footed.

My take is that Barbeary just got himself into a bit of a pickle over whether to go low, stay high or try and hold him up. Then his indecision means he gets into a bit of a nothing position, and then it’s too late.

I get that his try’s looked a bit easy and some soft defending going on, but equally Barbeary has a habit of making these things look ridiculously easy.

His tackling can sometimes let him down, it’s a weak area of his. He can look a little lazy at times, certainly in comparison with T Willis who is just relentless. Lot of plus boxes though, I’m sure he’ll improve…

Weird game that, Biarritz 7th team turned up for the first half with a heavy hangover. Then the 1st team came on after half time.

As I said in my initial post, I’m definitely being harsh on him, but some of those tries were easy, not Barbeary making it look easy. For the one from the base of the scrum, no-one even tried to tackle him - the scrum half practically ran out of his way.

It’s probably more to do with the fact that I’m a huge fan of Tom Willis and it annoys me a bit that Barbeary’s development is seemingly being prioritised unfairly. I can buy the argument that Willis is an 8/10 player but Barbeary might become world class so Wasps (and England) want to maximise his opportunity. However, at this moment in time, I feel like a better player’s game time (and development) is effectively being sacrificed which doesn’t sit well with me.

Don’t get me wrong, I want Barbeary to achieve his potential and become a world class player for England. I just feel sorry for Tom Willis who has no hype around him but has the makings of being an excellent player in his own right.

Do we know Willis’s fitness status for certain? I know what you mean about the push behind Barbeary, but I have no idea if that’s how Blackett is intentionally playing it.

Willis seems to have plenty of fans on here. He’s reminding me a little bit of Aldritt actually. Do you not feel he’s really on the England radar? Hard to tell because Jones has taken so long to actually have a look at Simmonds and Dombrandt, we kind of need to see where that goes first.

No idea if the summer is likely to be viewed as a chance to look at some more fringe options, given we’re already struggling for cohesion.

The short answer is no. However, he is fit enough to have been on the bench for the last few games which suggests to me that Barbeary is preferred.