Grenfell Fire

[Sandydragon]

The local MP, Emma Dent Coad (Lab), has been quoted as saying:
"I can’t help thinking that poor quality materials and construction standards may have played a part in this hideous and unforgivable event..."
and

There are now reports that to go from the seemingly low quality cladding tiles which are illegal in Germany and illegal on buildings over 40ft in the USA up to actual fire resistant tiles would have cost around £5,000 extra for the entire building. If true that's just so pathetic it's hard to know what to do with those who went cheap

In California a lot more is required including fire sprinklers in each room or living area, no wood burning fireplaces (only gas), a whole slew of earthquake regulations that pertain to fire prevention, steel framing in some cases, fireproof roofing...and more.

According to one counsellor, the fitting of sprinklers was discussed as part of the refurbishment, but rejected by the tenants. Another statement that needs to be validated.

[Coco]

There are now reports that to go from the seemingly low quality cladding tiles which are illegal in Germany and illegal on buildings over 40ft in the USA up to actual fire resistant tiles would have cost around £5,000 extra for the entire building. If true that's just so pathetic it's hard to know what to do with those who went cheap

In California a lot more is required including fire sprinklers in each room or living area, no wood burning fireplaces (only gas), a whole slew of earthquake regulations that pertain to fire prevention, steel framing in some cases, fireproof roofing...and more.

According to one counsellor, the fitting of sprinklers was discussed as part of the refurbishment, but rejected by the tenants. Another statement that needs to be validated.

Here the tenants would not have a say. It is building code and the cost goes to building owner. Building owner has to either pony up the cost of improvements or sell it. They would not be allowed to rent or lease space in it.

[Mellsblue]

I had a quick skim read of the bill. For starters its effing boring. More importantly, it seems it just changes some wording in the Landlord and Tenant Act to make the landlord provide 'homes fit for human habitation' which is defined in the Housing Act 2004. The 2004 act already provides that the 'local housing authority must keep the housing conditions in their area under review'. So, I'm not sure what material difference it would make in this case.

[Stones of granite]

If your politics causes people to die don't be surprised if you get an atavistic response... And we've seen that. To be honest the Tories deserve everything coming to them. They've ruined this country.

What have the Tories materially changed from the last Labour government, and how did Labour's policy at the last election differ when it came to refurbishment of such housing? I'd have thought in the main none of the parties were doing much about anything in this area, so it's hardly just the Tories, and for a ruined country there still seems to be an awful lot going right!

Well there is this

http://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/c ... ted/14/06/

That article is strangely lacking in detail, andI I guess the proposed bills applied to England anyway, but as a private landlord in Scotland I can tell you that the regulations her get tighter every year. Every time a tenant changes I end up with a substantial bill for modications to meet the latest regs.

[Galfon]

If there's a heat-wave in London this weekend, there'll be trouble. ( it seems to trigger it regular now in pockets of deprivation.With this outrage,
the rage could be out.)

[Digby]

I had a quick skim read of the bill. For starters its effing boring. More importantly, it seems it just changes some wording in the Landlord and Tenant Act to make the landlord provide 'homes fit for human habitation' which is defined in the Housing Act 2004. The 2004 act already provides that the 'local housing authority must keep the housing conditions in their area under review'. So, I'm not sure what material difference it would make in this case.

I couldn't see a damn thing which would make mentioning the bill of relevance either.

[Sandydragon]

I had a quick skim read of the bill. For starters its effing boring. More importantly, it seems it just changes some wording in the Landlord and Tenant Act to make the landlord provide 'homes fit for human habitation' which is defined in the Housing Act 2004. The 2004 act already provides that the 'local housing authority must keep the housing conditions in their area under review'. So, I'm not sure what material difference it would make in this case.

I couldn't see a damn thing which would make mentioning the bill of relevance either.

It sjust a narrative forming. Tories don't care, Corbyn does and look this could have been prevented if only he were in power and could have passed that bill.

This situation is being exploited. Sadly, people want to blame someone so it's an easy audience.

[Mikey Brown]

I had a quick skim read of the bill. For starters its effing boring. More importantly, it seems it just changes some wording in the Landlord and Tenant Act to make the landlord provide 'homes fit for human habitation' which is defined in the Housing Act 2004. The 2004 act already provides that the 'local housing authority must keep the housing conditions in their area under review'. So, I'm not sure what material difference it would make in this case.

I couldn't see a damn thing which would make mentioning the bill of relevance either.

It sjust a narrative forming. Tories don't care, Corbyn does and look this could have been prevented if only he were in power and could have passed that bill.

This situation is being exploited. Sadly, people want to blame someone so it's an easy audience.

It's a very strange situation where there are people very rightly fired up about this, but also a lot of people seemingly wanting to direct their annoyance about the election in to this in any way possible.

[Sandydragon]

I couldn't see a damn thing which would make mentioning the bill of relevance either.

It sjust a narrative forming. Tories don't care, Corbyn does and look this could have been prevented if only he were in power and could have passed that bill.

This situation is being exploited. Sadly, people want to blame someone so it's an easy audience.

It's a very strange situation where there are people very rightly fired up about this, but also a lot of people seemingly wanting to direct their annoyance about the election in to this in any way possible.

Aye. The protestors at the Kensington Council Officers were undoubtedly bolstered by some rent a mob types. You could spot them on the TV, far too quick with the mobile phones to record 'police brutality' and to cover their own faces. They can usually be relied upon to turn up and it really wouldn't surprise me if one or more of the protests or other activities today kickoff. The anger felt by the residents and relatives is real enough, it really doesn't need to be hijacked.

[jared_7]

It sjust a narrative forming. Tories don't care, Corbyn does and look this could have been prevented if only he were in power and could have passed that bill.

This situation is being exploited. Sadly, people want to blame someone so it's an easy audience.

It's a very strange situation where there are people very rightly fired up about this, but also a lot of people seemingly wanting to direct their annoyance about the election in to this in any way possible.

Aye. The protestors at the Kensington Council Officers were undoubtedly bolstered by some rent a mob types. You could spot them on the TV, far too quick with the mobile phones to record 'police brutality' and to cover their own faces. They can usually be relied upon to turn up and it really wouldn't surprise me if one or more of the protests or other activities today kickoff. The anger felt by the residents and relatives is real enough, it really doesn't need to be hijacked.

Completely agree. The worst thing, and you can see it here and elsewhere, is that these actions are actually detracting from the coverage of real anger felt by the families and friends of victims, which we should all remember shouldn't be overlooked.

What I did find interesting yesterday, and maybe you guys can explain it to me, was a lawyer interviewed on the news saying a government enquiry isn't whats best here - there are already judicial processes to go through that would be open to the public every step of the way to find out who is responsible, whereas a government enquiry takes the process behind closed doors until, a few years later, they decide to release some findings.

Whats the deal?

[kk67]

The right wing's righteous anger at not wanting this event to be politicised is causing even more anger.
Which right wing politician is capable of calming this situation..?. Boris, Foxy, Hunt, George ?,....not exactly ghostbusters is it..?.

[Digby]

It's a very strange situation where there are people very rightly fired up about this, but also a lot of people seemingly wanting to direct their annoyance about the election in to this in any way possible.

Aye. The protestors at the Kensington Council Officers were undoubtedly bolstered by some rent a mob types. You could spot them on the TV, far too quick with the mobile phones to record 'police brutality' and to cover their own faces. They can usually be relied upon to turn up and it really wouldn't surprise me if one or more of the protests or other activities today kickoff. The anger felt by the residents and relatives is real enough, it really doesn't need to be hijacked.

Completely agree. The worst thing, and you can see it here and elsewhere, is that these actions are actually detracting from the coverage of real anger felt by the families and friends of victims, which we should all remember shouldn't be overlooked.

What I did find interesting yesterday, and maybe you guys can explain it to me, was a lawyer interviewed on the news saying a government enquiry isn't whats best here - there are already judicial processes to go through that would be open to the public every step of the way to find out who is responsible, whereas a government enquiry takes the process behind closed doors until, a few years later, they decide to release some findings.

Whats the deal?

I don't know off the top of my head what judicial processes would be precluded by a public enquiry? Very likely there will be some other investigations will run concurrent with the public enquiry, and the public enquiry will need to be mindful of that and especially with regard to possible criminal proceedings.

But there's no way a disaster this size isn't going to warrant a public enquiry, and also warrant one that has the authority to order witnesses to attend, to produce documents, and to have people heard under oath

[Sandydragon]

I think regardless of what type of enquiry follows on, the police investigation will take precedence. As for the follow on enquiries, I think the best explanation is provided here:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/wh ... 94661.html

[Lord Lucan]

Using cladding that burns is a disaster waiting to happen, its very use should not have been permitted. The fact that it seems the council could choose between using combustible cladding and non combustible is a deadly flaw in the building system, which no doubt will be looked at and changed after this.

I lived in a tower block in Hackney, it was marked for demolition, therefore residents were being moved out, the place was half empty when I lived there. Vandals would set fire to empty flats, I was on the 11th floor, a flat 3 floors above me was well ablaze before I even knew what was happening, the fire brigade and lots of spectators were all in the car park looking up at it, they just let it burn out, it didn't spread, so for this tower block to go up like a Roman candle there must have been something very wrong with the design or maybe it was just the cladding catching fire which doomed the building.

[Zhivago]

Clip filmed by a fire crew on the night when they are called to the fire. Nothing crazy, but the dialogue shows their disbelief that this could even happen.



Eyewitness account from survivor from 15th floor

[kk67]

Westminster, Kensington+Chelsea, Isle of Wight and Doncaster are the most corrupt local councils in England.

But the corruption is so extensive that it's hard to make a definitive league table. These are the top 4.

[Zhivago]

Locals have suggested that the death toll is much higher than the current official figure. There is certainly something that doesn't quite add up at the moment, although I understand that the police can't start speculating. Very tricky situation to manage...

[canta_brian]

Jonathan Pie does a better job of putting the issues across than I could ever do.

[Sandydragon]

Just read in the Telegraph that a bloke who has been volunteering over the past week got beaten up by some of the protestors at the council office invasion. Apparently he was in a suit and was confused with one of the councillors.

If there is any truth to this story then political leadership is needed to calm people down before some more vigilante justice is dished out.

[canta_brian]

Just read in the Telegraph that a bloke who has been volunteering over the past week got beaten up by some of the protestors at the council office invasion. Apparently he was in a suit and was confused with one of the councillors.

If there is any truth to this story then political leadership is needed to calm people down before some more vigilante justice is dished out.

Agreed. Anger is understandable and the way to diffuse it is to show a clear open process to discover what happened.

[Sandydragon]

Just read in the Telegraph that a bloke who has been volunteering over the past week got beaten up by some of the protestors at the council office invasion. Apparently he was in a suit and was confused with one of the councillors.

If there is any truth to this story then political leadership is needed to calm people down before some more vigilante justice is dished out.

Agreed. Anger is understandable and the way to diffuse it is to show a clear open process to discover what happened.

And for the tossers who are trying to exploit it for political gain to wind their necks in.

[belgarion]

Locals have suggested that the death toll is much higher than the current official figure. There is certainly something that doesn't quite add up at the moment, although I understand that the police can't start speculating. Very tricky situation to manage...

Ans has been aid before, an accurate & precise official figure can only be given out when the authorities HAVE a
final figure. Any thing at the moment is just supposition. After the Manchester attack exactly who was dead & not
just missing wasn't confirmed for at least 3/4 days later & this is a much larger & complicated situation due to the
fact that some of the victims will only be able to be identified from dental records/DNA.
Also don't forget they may have an accurate list of tenants but what about people who were guests or just visiting?

[kk67]

And for the tossers who are trying to exploit it for political gain to wind their necks in.

Some people disagree. This is Jonathon Freedland.

" You can ignore those who say it’s wrong, or too soon, to politicise Grenfell Tower. That’s always the refrain of those who understand that a raw moment such as this brings great clarity, suddenly exposing in vivid colour a reality that, for many, may have been abstract. Such people want the moment to pass, for the national gaze to move on, so that they can return to business as usual. Which is why now is exactly the time to talk about what this blaze has illuminated."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... inequality

[canta_brian]

Not sure if this counts as a "tosser politicising" but...

"The government department promised a review in 2013, but it was soon delayed.

In March 2014, the parliamentary group wrote:"Surely… when you already have credible evidence to justify updating… the guidance… which will lead to saving of lives, you don't need to wait another three years in addition to the two already spent since the research findings were updated, in order to take action?

"As there are estimated to be another 4,000 older tower blocks in the UK, without automatic sprinkler protection, can we really afford to wait for another tragedy to occur before we amend this weakness?"

After further correspondence, Liberal Democrat MP Steven Williams - who was then a minister in the department - replied: "I have neither seen nor heard anything that would suggest that consideration of these specific potential changes is urgent and I am not willing to disrupt the work of this department by asking that these matters are brought forward."

The group replied to say they "were at a loss to understand, how you had concluded that credible and independent evidence, which had life safety implications, was NOT considered to be urgent".

"As a consequence the group wishes to point out to you that should a major fire tragedy, with loss of life, occur between now and 2017 in, for example, a residential care facility or a purpose built block of flats, where the matters which had been raised here, were found to be contributory to the outcome, then the group would be bound to bring this to others' attention."

The letters were written before the refurbishment of Grenfell Tower."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40330789

[Digby]

That all seems fine as far as pointing out failings go. The government had indeed had indeed suggested there'd be a review back in 2013, and as of today they still couldn't tell you when it will happen, so that's a nailed on failure.

It is worth noting though the tower in question had been refurbished at some expense, so this isn't simply about a refusal to spend money. It might be partly about that, but in significant part it has to be about spending money badly. We do though need to hear more about what actually happened, this mayn't be all about the cladding.