WaspInWales wrote:
Have you seen the video clip a few posts above?
It's pretty clear.
it really isn't. Could have hit his fingers or his knee. Another angle would be needed to be definitive.
Dunno about you, but my fingers don't tend to reflexively maximally extend when a rugby ball hits my knee.
The video is absolutely clear on this I'm afraid - just as clear as the still images are that the grounding was good.
This.
I was convinced it was a try at first and fully expected it to be given. It was superb from Anscombe. I was gutted for Wales when it wasn't given as regardless of nationality, most people don't want poor decisions being a massive factor in matches.
I'd be feeling a bit peeved now if it was given though.
The TMO got both decisions wrong, but the correct outcome was achieved. Shocking from the TMO really.
Re: England v Wales
Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:14 pm
by Numbers
WaspInWales wrote:
Which Tyler wrote:
Sandydragon wrote:
it really isn't. Could have hit his fingers or his knee. Another angle would be needed to be definitive.
Dunno about you, but my fingers don't tend to reflexively maximally extend when a rugby ball hits my knee.
The video is absolutely clear on this I'm afraid - just as clear as the still images are that the grounding was good.
This.
I was convinced it was a try at first and fully expected it to be given. It was superb from Anscombe. I was gutted for Wales when it wasn't given as regardless of nationality, most people don't want poor decisions being a massive factor in matches.
I'd be feeling a bit peeved now if it was given though.
The TMO got both decisions wrong, but the correct outcome was achieved. Shocking from the TMO really.
Didn't it restart with a 22? Should have been a scrum V England ball if what you think is true.
I'd say though the ball goes forwards it seems to go through his fingers first and it's the knee that knocks the ball in a forwards direction, if his hand had knocked it forwards then it would not have hit his knee, if anything in the replay it looks as though the ball goes backwards into his knee and he was moving his hands backwards in an attempt to gather the ball.
All this is by the by tho and not really worth debating ad nauseum, as I think almost everyone is in agreement that it didn't lose us the game.
Re: England v Wales
Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:15 pm
by WaspInWales
Numbers wrote:
WaspInWales wrote:
Which Tyler wrote:
Dunno about you, but my fingers don't tend to reflexively maximally extend when a rugby ball hits my knee.
The video is absolutely clear on this I'm afraid - just as clear as the still images are that the grounding was good.
This.
I was convinced it was a try at first and fully expected it to be given. It was superb from Anscombe. I was gutted for Wales when it wasn't given as regardless of nationality, most people don't want poor decisions being a massive factor in matches.
I'd be feeling a bit peeved now if it was given though.
The TMO got both decisions wrong, but the correct outcome was achieved. Shocking from the TMO really.
Didn't it restart with a 22? Should have been a scrum V England ball if what you think is true.
I'd say though the ball goes forwards it seems to go through his fingers first and it's the knee that knocks the ball in a forwards direction, if his hand had knocked it forwards then it would not have hit his knee, if anything in the replay it looks as though the ball goes backwards into his knee and he was moving his hands backwards in an attempt to gather the ball.
All this is by the by tho and not really worth debating ad nauseum, as I think almost everyone is in agreement that it didn't lose us the game.
Garces was playing advantage for Wales. Patchell kicked the penalty to make it 12-3.
That was another thing the tmo got wrong as he said it should be a scrum.
Re: England v Wales
Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:20 pm
by oldbackrow
Numbers wrote:
Didn't it restart with a 22? Should have been a scrum V England ball if what you think is true.
I'd say though the ball goes forwards it seems to go through his fingers first and it's the knee that knocks the ball in a forwards direction, if his hand had knocked it forwards then it would not have hit his knee, if anything in the replay it looks as though the ball goes backwards into his knee and he was moving his hands backwards in an attempt to gather the ball.
All this is by the by tho and not really worth debating ad nauseum, as I think almost everyone is in agreement that it didn't lose us the game.
No Garces was playing an advantage to Wales for an earlier infringement and Patchell kicked the 3 points. If it had been awarded and a very difficult conversion made, it would have been 12-7.
Re: England v Wales
Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:21 pm
by Sandydragon
Numbers wrote:
WaspInWales wrote:
Which Tyler wrote:
Dunno about you, but my fingers don't tend to reflexively maximally extend when a rugby ball hits my knee.
The video is absolutely clear on this I'm afraid - just as clear as the still images are that the grounding was good.
This.
I was convinced it was a try at first and fully expected it to be given. It was superb from Anscombe. I was gutted for Wales when it wasn't given as regardless of nationality, most people don't want poor decisions being a massive factor in matches.
I'd be feeling a bit peeved now if it was given though.
The TMO got both decisions wrong, but the correct outcome was achieved. Shocking from the TMO really.
Didn't it restart with a 22? Should have been a scrum V England ball if what you think is true.
I'd say though the ball goes forwards it seems to go through his fingers first and it's the knee that knocks the ball in a forwards direction, if his hand had knocked it forwards then it would not have hit his knee, if anything in the replay it looks as though the ball goes backwards into his knee and he was moving his hands backwards in an attempt to gather the ball.
All this is by the by tho and not really worth debating ad nauseum, as I think almost everyone is in agreement that it didn't lose us the game.
Agreed, but I still don't see the ball making contact with the fingers, hand reflex aside, there is no clear contact with the ball.
But, even if given, it was still a difficult conversion. Lets suggest Patchell does get it, the score is now 12-7 with 55 minutes to go. The suggestion is that we wouldn't have gone for the penalty at the 70th (ash) minute but the corner instead. Still no guarantee of a score or a win.
If this had been the 79th minute and last play I would be livid. But it was too soon in the game to have a decisive effect.
Re: England v Wales
Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:22 pm
by oldbackrow
oldbackrow wrote:
Numbers wrote:
Didn't it restart with a 22? Should have been a scrum V England ball if what you think is true.
I'd say though the ball goes forwards it seems to go through his fingers first and it's the knee that knocks the ball in a forwards direction, if his hand had knocked it forwards then it would not have hit his knee, if anything in the replay it looks as though the ball goes backwards into his knee and he was moving his hands backwards in an attempt to gather the ball.
All this is by the by tho and not really worth debating ad nauseum, as I think almost everyone is in agreement that it didn't lose us the game.
No Garces was playing an advantage to Wales for an earlier infringement and Patchell kicked the 3 points. If it had been awarded and a very difficult conversion made, it would have been 12-7.
In fairness he said it would be a white scrum but "you go back to the penalty"
Re: England v Wales
Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:25 pm
by Sandydragon
oldbackrow wrote:
oldbackrow wrote:
Numbers wrote:
Didn't it restart with a 22? Should have been a scrum V England ball if what you think is true.
I'd say though the ball goes forwards it seems to go through his fingers first and it's the knee that knocks the ball in a forwards direction, if his hand had knocked it forwards then it would not have hit his knee, if anything in the replay it looks as though the ball goes backwards into his knee and he was moving his hands backwards in an attempt to gather the ball.
All this is by the by tho and not really worth debating ad nauseum, as I think almost everyone is in agreement that it didn't lose us the game.
No Garces was playing an advantage to Wales for an earlier infringement and Patchell kicked the 3 points. If it had been awarded and a very difficult conversion made, it would have been 12-7.
In fairness he said it would be a white scrum but "you go back to the penalty"
Thankfully Garces got that right, I'm not sure the TMO was aware of the penalty advantage, although its often not clear when the ref stops giving advantage so not a fatal error on his part.
Re: England v Wales
Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:26 pm
by Sandydragon
If we had taken the 3 points on offer on 2 occasions in the first half (Patch missed one and we chose to kick for the corner for the other) then it would have been far closer and very interesting last few minutes.
But we didn't.
Re: England v Wales
Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:27 pm
by oldbackrow
Numbers wrote:
Didn't it restart with a 22? Should have been a scrum V England ball if what you think is true.
I'd say though the ball goes forwards it seems to go through his fingers first and it's the knee that knocks the ball in a forwards direction, if his hand had knocked it forwards then it would not have hit his knee, if anything in the replay it looks as though the ball goes backwards into his knee and he was moving his hands backwards in an attempt to gather the ball.
All this is by the by tho and not really worth debating ad nauseum, as I think almost everyone is in agreement that it didn't lose us the game.
Re: England v Wales
Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:29 pm
by WaspInWales
How can this be explained if the ball didn't hit his finger?
Re: England v Wales
Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:35 pm
by oldbackrow
Sorry for the repeated posts, I claim senility!
Re: England v Wales
Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:36 pm
by Sandydragon
HIs knee is closer than his hand.
Re: England v Wales
Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:36 pm
by Sandydragon
oldbackrow wrote:Sorry for the repeated posts, I claim senility!
No argument there.
Re: England v Wales
Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:38 pm
by Sandydragon
In fact from that picture you could make the argument that Care was about to tackle Evans without the ball - penalty try Wales.
Re: England v Wales
Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:39 pm
by Numbers
WaspInWales wrote:How can this be explained if the ball didn't hit his finger?
Still shots don't really prove the direction of the ball after it went through his 2 fingers, if you watch in real time his hand movement is trying to bring the ball into him so if anything the ball would have gone backwards, I can see this is going to roll on and on.
Re: England v Wales
Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:41 pm
by WaspInWales
Sandydragon wrote:In fact from that picture you could make the argument that Care was about to tackle Evans without the ball - penalty try Wales.
That is some stretch. Care didn't tackle Evans, but he did upend an England physio off the pitch.
Re: England v Wales
Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:49 pm
by Numbers
WaspInWales wrote:
Sandydragon wrote:In fact from that picture you could make the argument that Care was about to tackle Evans without the ball - penalty try Wales.
That is some stretch. Care didn't tackle Evans, but he did upend an England physio off the pitch.
If you watch the repeat you'll see Care hold back Steff Evans, needlessly it has to be said as he was nowhere near the ball at that point which is why Evans didn't make a deal of it, it's certainly a non-issue.
Re: England v Wales
Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:51 pm
by Sandydragon
WaspInWales wrote:
Sandydragon wrote:In fact from that picture you could make the argument that Care was about to tackle Evans without the ball - penalty try Wales.
That is some stretch. Care didn't tackle Evans, but he did upend an England physio off the pitch.
You'll note that I made that comment based on the still picture,not what happened before or after.
Re: England v Wales
Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:01 pm
by WaspInWales
Numbers wrote:
WaspInWales wrote:
Sandydragon wrote:In fact from that picture you could make the argument that Care was about to tackle Evans without the ball - penalty try Wales.
That is some stretch. Care didn't tackle Evans, but he did upend an England physio off the pitch.
If you watch the repeat you'll see Care hold back Steff Evans, needlessly it has to be said as he was nowhere near the ball at that point which is why Evans didn't make a deal of it, it's certainly a non-issue.
Not sure I'd agree that Care held Evans back. It looked like he was shaping up for a tackle, but he didn't commit. He just tapped him on the abdomen and made contact with his shirt...Evans had already knocked-on by then though.
Re: England v Wales
Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:02 pm
by WaspInWales
Sandydragon wrote:
WaspInWales wrote:
Sandydragon wrote:In fact from that picture you could make the argument that Care was about to tackle Evans without the ball - penalty try Wales.
That is some stretch. Care didn't tackle Evans, but he did upend an England physio off the pitch.
You'll note that I made that comment based on the still picture,not what happened before or after.
Fair enough. Judging from the still picture, the ball hit Evans' hand
Re: England v Wales
Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:07 pm
by Sandydragon
WaspInWales wrote:
Sandydragon wrote:
WaspInWales wrote:
That is some stretch. Care didn't tackle Evans, but he did upend an England physio off the pitch.
You'll note that I made that comment based on the still picture,not what happened before or after.
Fair enough. Judging from the still picture, the ball hit Evans' hand
That thing with the sock at the end is his leg. It hit his knee.
Re: England v Wales
Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:10 pm
by WaspInWales
Sandydragon wrote:
WaspInWales wrote:
Sandydragon wrote:
You'll note that I made that comment based on the still picture,not what happened before or after.
Fair enough. Judging from the still picture, the ball hit Evans' hand
That thing with the sock at the end is his leg. It hit his knee.
Those things at the end of his arms which move when the ball makes contact with them are his fingers.
Re: England v Wales
Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:53 pm
by Sourdust
No matter how many times I see it I can't see definitive proof that the ball brushed his fingers. I think it's very likely that it did, but that's not good enough. Even assuming it did, it then came off his knee before hitting the ground. If that's a knock-on then so is a punt ahead - although TBF I have seen them given. Seriously, this attempt to justify the TMO's decision as "two wrongs make a right", just seems every bit as desperate to me as the attempt to blame four disallowed points in the first half for Wales losing the match by six points.
Re: England v Wales
Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:19 pm
by WaspInWales
Sourdust wrote:No matter how many times I see it I can't see definitive proof that the ball brushed his fingers. I think it's very likely that it did, but that's not good enough. Even assuming it did, it then came off his knee before hitting the ground. If that's a knock-on then so is a punt ahead - although TBF I have seen them given. Seriously, this attempt to justify the TMO's decision as "two wrongs make a right", just seems every bit as desperate to me as the attempt to blame four disallowed points in the first half for Wales losing the match by six points.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to justify the tmo with 'two wrongs make a right'. They guy got things dreadfully wrong and shouldn't be used again. At the very least, he needs to be demoted or sent back for referee training...or whatever World Rugby can do.
As for the punt suggestion, doesn't a punt have to be an intentional act? I'm sure I've read that somewhere, but not 100% sure.
Re: England v Wales
Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:42 pm
by oldbackrow
WaspInWales wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to justify the tmo with 'two wrongs make a right'. They guy got things dreadfully wrong and shouldn't be used again. At the very least, he needs to be demoted or sent back for referee training...or whatever World Rugby can do.
As for the punt suggestion, doesn't a punt have to be an intentional act? I'm sure I've read that somewhere, but not 100% sure.
Under the laws "Kick: An act made by intentionally hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee. A kick must move the ball a visible distance out of the hand, or along the ground."
On the other point
